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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 5:39:47 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Didnt Hamas violently take over power?

No it was elected to control of the Palestinian parliament. There were violent clashes with Fatah (who'd rather be recognised as running Palestine themselves) afterwards, though.

quote:

How many factions of Hamas are there?

I have seen posters talk about how different factions... not the m ilitary ones.. are the ones responsible for many of the bombings. Is that true? If so, why isnt Hamas doing anything about it?

There are two or three organisations within Hamas (the military one gets the most attention, while the political one does the more beneficial stuff), and a few splinter groups. Sticking the political wing with the responsibility for a bombing by somebody who's been thrown out of military wing for working with Fatah is a bit of a stretch as a result.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 5:44:59 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with power grabs on both sides and stupid men refusing to even talk for the good of their people.


This news might not have made it to the USA but when Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, they offered to put everything on the negotiating table, I repeat, EVERYTHING, including recognition of Israel along with all land claims. Israel refused to speak to Hamas without in affect, their full capitulation, then Israel called Hamas terrorists, the USA agreed and decided the palestinians needed a puppet government such as Abbas who the Israelis are now threatening to remove because HE wants international recognition of the palestinian nation.

There is only one side that is refusing to talk.

The election was reported in the USA. . . . and subsequently ignored . . . then forgotten . . . now a coup.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 5:46:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Moon, you know my knowledge of this is sketchy at times... and I have admitted that more than once on the threads. So thank you for taking my questions as just that.

I still dont like the... they killed more of us than we did of them... angle. Both sides need to man up and sort this out.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 5:47:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The election was reported in the USA. . . . and subsequently ignored . . . then forgotten . . . now a coup.


It wasnt ignored by me.

You know, vincent. I am asking questions and trying to gain a knowledge base from BOTH sides of the issue. That makes me rather unbiased at this point.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 5:48:56 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

There are two or three organisations within Hamas (the military one gets the most attention, while the political one does the more beneficial stuff), and a few splinter groups. Sticking the political wing with the responsibility for a bombing by somebody who's been thrown out of military wing for working with Fatah is a bit of a stretch as a result.


Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 7:14:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The election was reported in the USA. . . . and subsequently ignored . . . then forgotten . . . now a coup.


So you know that Isreal is the one that refuses to negotiate, backed by the US and its lapdogs. 

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 7:18:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.


Put yourself in Hamas's shoes, they are fellow freedom fighters.

BTW Why doesn't the US control its Israeli satelite? Don't say it can't, it can, it bankrolls Israel, it can just turn the money tap off and bring israel to heal.

Politics.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 8:29:04 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

There are two or three organisations within Hamas (the military one gets the most attention, while the political one does the more beneficial stuff), and a few splinter groups. Sticking the political wing with the responsibility for a bombing by somebody who's been thrown out of military wing for working with Fatah is a bit of a stretch as a result.


Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.

For much the same reason as the FBI and the DEA couldn't stop the CIA running drugs cartels as a fundraiser after Carter cut their funding: it's that "left hand doesn't know what the right hand's up to" thing, that's always been popular as a method of political deniability.
(There's also the violence from both sides thing you've mentioned. It's worth remembering that the latest eruption of conflict in the occupied territories was kicked off by the IDF going into Palestine and taking a reprisal for something that hadn't happened yet, and may well have been a fabricated excuse rather than something that they prevented from happening. You're absolutely right that neither side has clean hands over the violence, but whenever it looks like things are starting to wind down, the IDF will go out of its way to stoke the fires back up.)

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 9:40:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's worth remembering that the latest eruption of conflict in the occupied territories was kicked off by the IDF going into Palestine and taking a reprisal for something that hadn't happened yet, and may well have been a fabricated excuse rather than something that they prevented from happening. You're absolutely right that neither side has clean hands over the violence, but whenever it looks like things are starting to wind down, the IDF will go out of its way to stoke the fires back up.)


You make some good points. It is also worth remembering, when Israel assassinated Hamas commander Ahmed Jabari to start the current round of conflict ISRAEL WAS NEGOTIATING A CEASE FIRE WITH HIM which was apparently making progress. Israel must have known that assassinating the person they were negotiating with would sink any cease fire.

Israel's integrity doesn't stand up to a modicum of scrutiny.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 10:18:55 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I know there are many issues such as borders, security, and one voice for Palestine but I cannot see where this recognition will or should have any effect on negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

I think that the US and Israel are making too much out of this new status. After all it has been stated many times by the US government that a Palestinian state is the goal of the future… Will why not agree with this status and continue working on the problems.

I also think the Palestinians are making too much out of their new found status. It is simply cosmetic and will give no additional rights and official world standing.

Otherwise I believe this is neither a plus or minus for Palestine but should be a wakeup call for the US and Israel… It says make peace or maybe in the future the rest of the world could be boycotting them over this issue.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/30/2012 10:24:43 AM >

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 10:31:24 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.


tazzy my opinion is that Hamas is more a confederation of gangs, with their own turf, with a loose flexible leadership. In a war of this type it is necessary for cells with a common goal but differing capabilities to remain somewhat separated. If they don’t then the central governing body would find a few rockets and or 2,000 pound bombs falling on their heads.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 10:40:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~FR

Thanks guys!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 10:58:05 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

There are two or three organisations within Hamas (the military one gets the most attention, while the political one does the more beneficial stuff), and a few splinter groups. Sticking the political wing with the responsibility for a bombing by somebody who's been thrown out of military wing for working with Fatah is a bit of a stretch as a result.


Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.



Because like Afghanistan, the politics of it isnt that easy. You have Hamas controlling some areas, tribal or village elders others, and criminal families more still.

They work together in order to fight a common enemy but no group wishes to concede full power to the other.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 11:01:34 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It's worth remembering that the latest eruption of conflict in the occupied territories was kicked off by the IDF going into Palestine and taking a reprisal for something that hadn't happened yet, and may well have been a fabricated excuse rather than something that they prevented from happening. You're absolutely right that neither side has clean hands over the violence, but whenever it looks like things are starting to wind down, the IDF will go out of its way to stoke the fires back up.)


You make some good points. It is also worth remembering, when Israel assassinated Hamas commander Ahmed Jabari to start the current round of conflict ISRAEL WAS NEGOTIATING A CEASE FIRE WITH HIM which was apparently making progress. Israel must have known that assassinating the person they were negotiating with would sink any cease fire.

Israel's integrity doesn't stand up to a modicum of scrutiny.


Meat, so what about the hundred or so rockets fired the weekend prior to Jabaris execution. ?

To make matters worse, Israels reaction today is to authorise more settlements of some 3,000 homes. I am guessing the UN and everyone else will just stand by at this blatant ethnic cleansing.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 11:11:53 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

There are two or three organisations within Hamas (the military one gets the most attention, while the political one does the more beneficial stuff), and a few splinter groups. Sticking the political wing with the responsibility for a bombing by somebody who's been thrown out of military wing for working with Fatah is a bit of a stretch as a result.


Why doesnt Hamas shut them down? Just curious about that and no one seems to have an answer for me so far.



Because like Afghanistan, the politics of it isnt that easy. You have Hamas controlling some areas, tribal or village elders others, and criminal families more still.

They work together in order to fight a common enemy but no group wishes to concede full power to the other.


So its a good probability that when the fighting is done with Israel (if it ever is) the Palestinian people still wont be free.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 11:33:50 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Tazzy, like much of the world, they dont operate as we do. One reason for the futility of entering Iraq. Some parts of Afghanistan dont even know the Russians have left.

That said, I have read in the press that many in Northern Ireland claiming to be paramilitaries are just criminal gangs.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 12:47:26 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, so what about the hundred or so rockets fired the weekend prior to Jabaris execution. ?

To make matters worse, Israels reaction today is to authorise more settlements of some 3,000 homes. I am guessing the UN and everyone else will just stand by at this blatant ethnic cleansing.



Huh? Israel were negotiating a cease fire with Ahmed Jabri! Do you normally kill the person you're negotiating with when negotiations are nearing a successful conclusion?

Only if you don't want a successful conclusion. It is painfully obvious Israel didn't want a ceasefire.

Israel was always going to steal more Palestinian land and build new homes on it, that is what they have been doing for decades. If you don't realise Israel's ambition is a greater Israel not peace, you haven't watching Polite.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 1:26:32 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, so what about the hundred or so rockets fired the weekend prior to Jabaris execution. ?

To make matters worse, Israels reaction today is to authorise more settlements of some 3,000 homes. I am guessing the UN and everyone else will just stand by at this blatant ethnic cleansing.



Huh? Israel were negotiating a cease fire with Ahmed Jabri! Do you normally kill the person you're negotiating with when negotiations are nearing a successful conclusion?

Only if you don't want a successful conclusion. It is painfully obvious Israel didn't want a ceasefire.

Israel was always going to steal more Palestinian land and build new homes on it, that is what they have been doing for decades. If you don't realise Israel's ambition is a greater Israel not peace, you haven't watching Polite.

The negotiations weren't nearing a successful conclusion, the 100+ rockets fired into Israel proved that. Jabri was negotiating with Israel while his troops fired rockets into Israel to gain expertise with a new generation of Iranian supplied rockets. These new weapons could reach the major Israeili population centers and can carry chemical weapons. What choice, exactly, did Israel have in regards to those weapons? Why leave Jabri in place after he spent months lying to the Israeli's?

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 1:31:26 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with power grabs on both sides and stupid men refusing to even talk for the good of their people.


This news might not have made it to the USA but when Hamas was elected in free and fair elections, they offered to put everything on the negotiating table, I repeat, EVERYTHING, including recognition of Israel along with all land claims. Israel refused to speak to Hamas without in affect, their full capitulation, then Israel called Hamas terrorists, the USA agreed and decided the palestinians needed a puppet government such as Abbas who the Israelis are now threatening to remove because HE wants international recognition of the palestinian nation.

There is only one side that is refusing to talk.

Hamas only won a majority of the seats in a single parliamnetary election in the PA. Abbas remained the President of the PA. Their military forces then violently expelled all elements of the PA government from Gaza.

When a single Hamas member made the offer to negotiate with Israel on everything the official Hamas spokesman promptly said that that was not the official stance of Hamas and Israel actually listened to the statement by the guy actually authorized by Hamas to speak on the groups behalf.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:11:34 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The negotiations weren't nearing a successful conclusion, the 100+ rockets fired into Israel proved that.



Huh? The 100+ rockets prove nothing about the negotiations, while assassinating the leading negotiator proves Israel weren't interested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Jabri was negotiating with Israel while his troops fired rockets into Israel to gain expertise with a new generation of Iranian supplied rockets. These new weapons could reach the major Israeili population centers and can carry chemical weapons. What choice, exactly, did Israel have in regards to those weapons? Why leave Jabri in place after he spent months lying to the Israeli's?


Oh my god! Not the WMD malarkey again. ROFL!!!!!!!  I thought the Iraq humiliation had chastened you lot. The area is so small should one side release chemical weapons they'll probably kill themselves rather than their enemy. You Israeli apologists talk about Hamas as though its the equvalent of Red China.

Fuck me, China is really going to freak you lot out, BOO!

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Profile   Post #: 40
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