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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:17:30 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas only won a majority of the seats in a single parliamnetary election in the PA. Abbas remained the President of the PA. Their military forces then violently expelled all elements of the PA government from Gaza.


Are you for real? Israel and the USA refused to recognize the democratically elected government of the Palestinians and then engineered a puppet government. Now the puppet government isn't pleasing the USA and Israel, Israel is threatening to remove it.

You really are a laugh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
When a single Hamas member made the offer to negotiate with Israel on everything the official Hamas spokesman promptly said that that was not the official stance of Hamas and Israel actually listened to the statement by the guy actually authorized by Hamas to speak on the groups behalf.


That is utter bullshit and a fiction. A co mplete and total lie.Hamas said they were willing to negotiate EVERYTHING. Israel demanded in affect, Hamas's total capitulation before they would discuss anything.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/30/2012 2:19:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:29:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Hamas denying they would recognize Israel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm

A detailed accounting of Hamas throwing the only legal authority in Gaza out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

100+ rockets of a new model delivered to Hamas by Iran and able to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem mean nothing? The fact that each rockets payload is large enough to carry a chemical warhead presently produced by Iran means nothing? And just to put the lie to the rest, there are many chemical weapons that dissipate and degrade quickly, sarin for instance. With Hamas showing no regard for the safety of its own people or the civilian sin Gaza what would prevent these fanatics from using sucha weapon on Tel Aviv? Keep in mind the only thing that stopped Hamas sending people into urban centers with explosives strapped to their bodies was an absolute closure of the Gaza/Israel border.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:29:44 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

What choice, exactly, did Israel have in regards to those weapons? Why leave Jabri in place after he spent months lying to the Israeli's?


Oh I forgot DomKen, you were at the negotiations, why Turkish diplomats know fuck all.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:38:29 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The election was reported in the USA. . . . and subsequently ignored . . . then forgotten . . . now a coup.


So you know that Isreal is the one that refuses to negotiate, backed by the US and its lapdogs. 

Did you see me argue the point? We are in agreement here.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:39:39 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas denying they would recognize Israel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm



They denied it after Israel humiliated them by asking in affect for Hamas's capitulation.

Again you are conveniently missing out the fact that that civel war came about through Israeli and US interference in promoting rival Fatah as a puppet government.

The irony of this is that Hamas came to power amongst the Palestinians with the help of Israeli money as they tried to promote a rival to fatah which could be manipulated (they thought).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

100+ rockets of a new model delivered to Hamas by Iran and able to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem mean nothing? The fact that each rockets payload is large enough to carry a chemical warhead presently produced by Iran means nothing? And just to put the lie to the rest, there are many chemical weapons that dissipate and degrade quickly, sarin for instance. With Hamas showing no regard for the safety of its own people or the civilian sin Gaza what would prevent these fanatics from using sucha weapon on Tel Aviv? Keep in mind the only thing that stopped Hamas sending people into urban centers with explosives strapped to their bodies was an absolute closure of the Gaza/Israel border.


I don't know why you keep pressing the Iran button. The government in Iran was a direct reult of the USA and Britain overthrowing a democratic government for oil and then promoting a brutal puppet who was eventually overthrown. If the US and Britain recognized Iranian democracy in 1953, there proably wouldn't be a bogeyman for you to keep bringing out of the cupboard to scare the kids.

The rejection of Palestinian democracy might also come back to haunt the dishonest and manipulative west. You would think the west would learn its lesson. If its going to promote democracy, at least fucking accept it when it doesn't like the choice of a people because it is inconvenient to its politics and the colonial ambitions of an ally.

You have obviously no personal opinion, you could be the Israeli spokesman, you are quoting him word for word.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/30/2012 2:44:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:51:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		He is looking for an argument from everyone it seems.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 2:56:45 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The election was reported in the USA. . . . and subsequently ignored . . . then forgotten . . . now a coup.


So you know that Isreal is the one that refuses to negotiate, backed by the US and its lapdogs. 

Did you see me argue the point? We are in agreement here.


Apologies if I miss read you on this point.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 3:08:16 PM   
Aswad


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What's the word for passive-aggressive when it applies to a nation?

IWYW,
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_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 3:13:34 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have seen posters talk about how different factions... not the m ilitary ones.. are the ones responsible for many of the bombings. Is that true? If so, why isnt Hamas doing anything about it?


«I've seen Americans talk about how different people, not the military, are the ones responsible for all the school shootings. Is that true? If so, why aren't the Democrats doing anything about it?»

See where I'm going with this one?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 3:18:54 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, so what about the hundred or so rockets fired the weekend prior to Jabaris execution. ?

To make matters worse, Israels reaction today is to authorise more settlements of some 3,000 homes. I am guessing the UN and everyone else will just stand by at this blatant ethnic cleansing.



Huh? Israel were negotiating a cease fire with Ahmed Jabri! Do you normally kill the person you're negotiating with when negotiations are nearing a successful conclusion?

Only if you don't want a successful conclusion. It is painfully obvious Israel didn't want a ceasefire.

Israel was always going to steal more Palestinian land and build new homes on it, that is what they have been doing for decades. If you don't realise Israel's ambition is a greater Israel not peace, you haven't watching Polite.


You havent answered my point. Why did hamas launch so many rockets PRIOR to Jabri being killed.

FYI I have been bleating on about the illegality of the Settlements and the problems they cause since you left.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 11/30/2012 3:22:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas denying they would recognize Israel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5122822.stm



They denied it after Israel humiliated them by asking in affect for Hamas's capitulation.

Again you are conveniently missing out the fact that that civel war came about through Israeli and US interference in promoting rival Fatah as a puppet government.

The irony of this is that Hamas came to power amongst the Palestinians with the help of Israeli money as they tried to promote a rival to fatah which could be manipulated (they thought).

Fatah wasn't promoted by anyone. It is and long has been the largest group in the PLO. Hamas only emerged in the 1980's as a fundamentalist Islamic rival of the more secular PLO. Israel did not create Hamas. It is the creation of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.

The PA-Hamas conflict was not instigated by the US or Israel it was entirely a fight between Hamas and Fatah for control of the territories. Hamas as an entity seperate from the PA has no legal rights to one inch of ground anywhere.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

100+ rockets of a new model delivered to Hamas by Iran and able to hit Tel Aviv and Jerusalem mean nothing? The fact that each rockets payload is large enough to carry a chemical warhead presently produced by Iran means nothing? And just to put the lie to the rest, there are many chemical weapons that dissipate and degrade quickly, sarin for instance. With Hamas showing no regard for the safety of its own people or the civilian sin Gaza what would prevent these fanatics from using sucha weapon on Tel Aviv? Keep in mind the only thing that stopped Hamas sending people into urban centers with explosives strapped to their bodies was an absolute closure of the Gaza/Israel border.


I don't know why you keep pressing the Iran button. The government in Iran was a direct reult of the USA and Britain overthrowing a democratic government for oil and then promoting a brutal puppet who was eventually overthrown. If the US and Britain recognized Iranian democracy in 1953, there proably wouldn't be a bogeyman for you to keep bringing out of the cupboard to scare the kids.

The rejection of Palestinian democracy might also come back to haunt the dishonest and manipulative west. You would think the west would learn its lesson. If its going to promote democracy, at least fucking accept it when it doesn't like the choice of a people because it is inconvenient to its politics and the colonial ambitions of an ally.

You have obviously no personal opinion, you could be the Israeli spokesman, you are quoting him word for word.

What Iranian history has to do with the fact that Iran is giving very dangerous munitions, derived from ex Soviet weapons, to Hamas is beyond me.

As to the ad hominen, I think very highly of you and am glad you're back but the personal attacks will get you in trouble with the mods.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 1:00:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, so what about the hundred or so rockets fired the weekend prior to Jabaris execution. ?

To make matters worse, Israels reaction today is to authorise more settlements of some 3,000 homes. I am guessing the UN and everyone else will just stand by at this blatant ethnic cleansing.



Huh? Israel were negotiating a cease fire with Ahmed Jabri! Do you normally kill the person you're negotiating with when negotiations are nearing a successful conclusion?

Only if you don't want a successful conclusion. It is painfully obvious Israel didn't want a ceasefire.

Israel was always going to steal more Palestinian land and build new homes on it, that is what they have been doing for decades. If you don't realise Israel's ambition is a greater Israel not peace, you haven't watching Polite.


You havent answered my point. Why did hamas launch so many rockets PRIOR to Jabri being killed.

FYI I have been bleating on about the illegality of the Settlements and the problems they cause since you left.



Polite, sorry but your question is meaningles. Let me ask you, was Israel carrying out assassinations and murders through criminal negligence before the Palestinians fired the rockets?

Yes they were because Gaza is a prison camp which Israels kill, murder and execute camp prisoners at will.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 1:14:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Fatah wasn't promoted by anyone. It is and long has been the largest group in the PLO. Hamas only emerged in the 1980's as a fundamentalist Islamic rival of the more secular PLO. Israel did not create Hamas. It is the creation of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.


I never said Fatah was promoted by anyone, I said Hamas was promoted as a rival to Fatah and Israeli helped fund Hamas in the early days.

I never said Israel created Hamas, I said they helped promote Hamas in the early days a s a rival to Fatah and so split the palestinians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The PA-Hamas conflict was not instigated by the US or Israel it was entirely a fight between Hamas and Fatah for control of the territories. Hamas as an entity seperate from the PA has no legal rights to one inch of ground anywhere.


I didn't say it was instigated, I said it was promoted. The USA stopped aid to Gaza and lobbied the EU to stop funding to the Palestinians and the EU being the usual US lapdog complied. France warned this would cause a civil war (they actually predicted the chaos in Iraq correctly too) but this appears to be what the USA and Israel wanted as they promoted Fatah and Abbas as an alternative government they would talk to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

What Iranian history has to do with the fact that Iran is giving very dangerous munitions, derived from ex Soviet weapons, to Hamas is beyond me.

As to the ad hominen, I think very highly of you and am glad you're back but the personal attacks will get you in trouble with the mods.


Every people have a right to defend themselves and have a right to fight for their freedom. Where the weapons come from is irrelevant. The USA always claims it believes in freedom and democracy for all oppressed people. Unless it is the palestinians and it interefers with the colonial ambitions of itself and its allies. However, you brought up Iran and in that context, Iranian history is important.

It wasn't an ad hominen. I merely pointed out your opinion doesn't differ in any way from what the Israeli government spokesman spouts and therefore I know it by heart. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/1/2012 1:17:50 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 1:18:04 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have seen posters talk about how different factions... not the m ilitary ones.. are the ones responsible for many of the bombings. Is that true? If so, why isnt Hamas doing anything about it?


«I've seen Americans talk about how different people, not the military, are the ones responsible for all the school shootings. Is that true? If so, why aren't the Democrats doing anything about it?»

See where I'm going with this one?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



I do see where you are going. I also believe we, as a country, should do something about the issue. Just as they should.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 4:27:58 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Polite, sorry but your question is meaningles. Let me ask you, was Israel carrying out assassinations and murders through criminal negligence before the Palestinians fired the rockets?

Yes they were because Gaza is a prison camp which Israels kill, murder and execute camp prisoners at will.


Meat, we will have to differ. I have spent ages stating out the reasons for the violence, whatever they are, I cant see any reason for rocket attacks on civillians.

Nice to see America have spoken out against the new settlement plans announced yesterday. Israel needs to understand such actions undermine world support for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20564484

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 4:42:10 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You havent answered my point. Why did hamas launch so many rockets PRIOR to Jabri being killed.


Just since he didn't answer it: this comes down to the Palestinian boy that Israel killed a short while earlier, and so Hamas ramped up their activities in retaliation for this killing. The event is on the record, as is the causal relation. I've mentioned it in another thread on the subject, but I can't recall which at the moment.

Hope this helps.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 4:54:40 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I do see where you are going. I also believe we, as a country, should do something about the issue. Just as they should.


A major difference being that their general population is illiterate teenagers who wouldn't know research or international politics if it bit them on the ass, which makes it a lot less reasonable to expect them to succeed, or even to see that they need to. Bit harder to deal with that for them than to deal with school shootings for the US, and the US has been unsuccessful at that so far.

Overall, though, most of the missiles fired so far have constituted virtually no threat, and have resulted in 2‰ of the deaths that the IDF has inflicted in Palestine, which I agree is primarily a quantitative difference, but if we posit that the IDF is responding, then it's clearly a case of- qualitatively- a disporportionate response (and the assumption that quantitative differences themselves cannot constitute a qualitative one is fallacious in itself).

I slap you. You slap me. It's all good. Eventually we lose track. We should just call it quits and screw who started it. Agreed. But if you're slapping me 500 times as often, and with a spiked glove to boot, well, there's something going on with that which kind of puts us in two different games altogether, isn't there?

The Palestinians are harassing Israel, and occasionally someone dies.

The Israeli are massacring Palestinians in an ethnically segregated labor camp; not quite the same thing.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 5:10:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Polite, sorry but your question is meaningles. Let me ask you, was Israel carrying out assassinations and murders through criminal negligence before the Palestinians fired the rockets?

Yes they were because Gaza is a prison camp which Israels kill, murder and execute camp prisoners at will.


Meat, we will have to differ. I have spent ages stating out the reasons for the violence, whatever they are, I cant see any reason for rocket attacks on civillians.

Nice to see America have spoken out against the new settlement plans announced yesterday. Israel needs to understand such actions undermine world support for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20564484



Can you see any reason for Israeli judicial executions which wipe out entire families and not the intended target? Can you explain how the IDF who claim to only target fighters have managed to murder over 850 children and over 2,000 women in the last ten years?

Can you justify Israel incarcerating over 8,000 Palestinians indefinitely without trial?

Can you justify Israelis stealing Palestinian land.

Can you justify the evictions of Palestinians from their homes in east Jerusalem and a biased judiciary which refuses to accept Palestinian land ownership rights?

Can you justify the demolishing of Palestinian houses and other illegal collective punishments?

Can you justify the Gaza economic blockade and rationing of calories?

If you can, maybe you will have a valid point about Palestinian rackets.

America might have spoken out about new settlement plans but it won't do anything about Israel implimenting them. Israel is the tail that wags the American dog.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 5:35:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I do see where you are going. I also believe we, as a country, should do something about the issue. Just as they should.

A major difference being that their general population is illiterate teenagers who wouldn't know research or international politics if it bit them on the ass, which makes it a lot less reasonable to expect them to succeed, or even to see that they need to. Bit harder to deal with that for them than to deal with school shootings for the US, and the US has been unsuccessful at that so far.
Overall, though, most of the missiles fired so far have constituted virtually no threat, and have resulted in 2‰ of the deaths that the IDF has inflicted in Palestine, which I agree is primarily a quantitative difference, but if we posit that the IDF is responding, then it's clearly a case of- qualitatively- a disporportionate response (and the assumption that quantitative differences themselves cannot constitute a qualitative one is fallacious in itself).
I slap you. You slap me. It's all good. Eventually we lose track. We should just call it quits and screw who started it. Agreed. But if you're slapping me 500 times as often, and with a spiked glove to boot, well, there's something going on with that which kind of puts us in two different games altogether, isn't there?


Perhaps it should occur to you to stop slapping her if she's going to slap you 500 times with a spiked glove in retaliation. I mean, if you ask nicely, I'm sure she'd consider smacking you 500 times with a spiked glove for your mutual pleasure. lol

quote:


The Palestinians are harassing Israel, and occasionally someone dies.
The Israeli are massacring Palestinians in an ethnically segregated labor camp; not quite the same thing.
IWYW,
— Aswad.


At some point, the Palestinians are going to have to figure out that Israel is going to continue to batter them if they continue to launch attacks into Israel. Atsome point, Israel is going to have to figure out that the Palestinians are a people and they should not be exterminated with the responses.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/1/2012 8:47:39 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

do see where you are going


I can't see where he is going with this at all...If US citizens were to start sending rockets into Canada something would certainly be done by our government. There is no correlation between school shootings and bombing an another country. How can a group of people be called a REAL country when they can’t even speak with one voice militarily or politically?

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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