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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 12:25:48 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government?



Show me anything the backs up your assertion and I will gladly shut up.

Abbas has abused his office to remain in power. Please note I have already said he is the right man for the job, that doesnt make him the legitimate one though. His term as president expired in 2009 and as such the current speaker should be the interim president.....Not Abbas.

Hamas rebelled against the PA in 2007. Abbas had not yet refused to hold elections at that point so it is not relevant to the status of Gaza.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 12:29:29 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Lets face some facts here.

Israel is going to keep building settlements in the occupied areas, unless something is done to stop them.

The United States and other western countries scream in protest and do nothing.

The Jews of Palestine used terrorist tactics against the British when the British controlled the area, something people have forgotten.

It is time for the rest of the world to hold Israel accountable and push the division of the area and the creation of a homeland for the Palestinians independent of Israel.



Both sides used terror tactics prior to 1948. The original plan was for two states to be formed. The neighboring Arab states with the blessings of the rest of ther Arab world invaded and divvied up the state that was supposed to become Palestine.

The problem with simply giving Palestine independence is that then the first shell or rocket that crosses the Israeli border gives Israel causus belli to invade and occupy all over again. There must be peace and disarmement of the terror groups first or it just won'y work.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 1:13:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The Jews of Palestine used terrorist tactics against the British when the British controlled the area, something people have forgotten.



True. If we are talking about terrorism, most of Israeli leaders have been terrorists. Something Israelis and their supporters conveniently forget when they keep accusing Palestinian leaders of being terrorists.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 1:42:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Both sides used terror tactics prior to 1948. The original plan was for two states to be formed. The neighboring Arab states with the blessings of the rest of ther Arab world invaded and divvied up the state that was supposed to become Palestine.



The idea that the Arabs states were united against Israel in 1948 is tosh and a lie that has been spouted so often by Israel and its allies in the west it has become a fact. The Arabs were disunited in their unity, double dealing and back stabbing. The Arab leadership has always been a liability to the Palestinians. The Arabs assembled a rag tag army of poorly trained and poorly equiped part timers. Syria refused to use its regular army, what became Jordon had the best Arab fighters and were commanded by British officiers and ordered to hold their lines. All the armies of the Arab states were a shambles of poorly armed and poorly trained amateurs, not having been allowed to have an army of any quality under the British. The British, the Americans and the soon to be Israeli leaders knew at the time there was only going to be one winner of the war before it started. The British actually advised Arab families to leave for their homes for their own safety, a minority left because of this advice and were refused the right to return, many that stayed were ethnically cleansed. There was never any doubt the Jews would win, they had seasoned fighters from the war in Europe, were well trained and well armed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The problem with simply giving Palestine independence is that then the first shell or rocket that crosses the Israeli border gives Israel causus belli to invade and occupy all over again. There must be peace and disarmement of the terror groups first or it just won'y work.


Israel engages in far more terror than the Palestinians so why shouldn't Israel disarm? It isn't necessary to disarm terrorists or freedom fighters to have peace. As the provo IRA pointed out to the UK, to hand in their arms would be to capitulate. A peace agreement allows fighters to disarm without capitulating.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/4/2012 1:43:31 PM >

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 2:51:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonc101

After all, who'd have ever believed that apartheid, the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall would ever crumble?

Any idea why the berlin wall was built? If not then it is more than a little pedestrian to mention its crumbling.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 12/4/2012 2:53:50 PM >

(in reply to Jonc101)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 3:11:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

do see where you are going


I can't see where he is going with this at all...If US citizens were to start sending rockets into Canada something would certainly be done by our government.


U.S. citizens are doing "drive bys" on cuban beach resorts with pickle forks mounting twin 50's and the u.s. govt does fuck all about it.
quote:

How can a group of people be called a REAL country when they can’t even speak with one voice militarily or politically?

Butch

Kinda like the revolutionaries in this country against england no?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 3:17:14 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Uh, you have a source for these drive by shootings in cuba done by american citizens?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 3:17:24 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ron we have an official voice anyway even if 49 percent the nation often disagrees. If a treaty is made with this official voice Idaho will abide by it for instance... Crying and screaming all the way but abide it they will. Not happening in Palestine. And that is a problem for statehood and peace with Israel.

Butch

Could you tell us how many treaties the u.s. made with the native americans that have been abrogated? So much for your official voice bullshit. That voice says what is convenient at the moment.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 3:19:42 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Uh, you have a source for these drive by shootings in cuba done by american citizens?


Cuba complains constantly to the u.n. to no avail.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 3:21:20 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Ron we have an official voice anyway even if 49 percent the nation often disagrees. If a treaty is made with this official voice Idaho will abide by it for instance... Crying and screaming all the way but abide it they will. Not happening in Palestine. And that is a problem for statehood and peace with Israel.

Butch

Could you tell us how many treaties the u.s. made with the native americans that have been abrogated? So much for your official voice bullshit. That voice says what is convenient at the moment.



The White Christian citizens in charge of the United States agreed that the elimination of Native Americans was prudent and beneficial for the country.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 4:02:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government?



Show me anything the backs up your assertion and I will gladly shut up.

Abbas has abused his office to remain in power. Please note I have already said he is the right man for the job, that doesnt make him the legitimate one though. His term as president expired in 2009 and as such the current speaker should be the interim president.....Not Abbas.

Hamas rebelled against the PA in 2007. Abbas had not yet refused to hold elections at that point so it is not relevant to the status of Gaza.



You are either missing or avoiding the point. Abbas continued his term in office of his own accord, contrary to the Palestinian Constitution. he didnt have the power to do that.

"Nathan Brown of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace commented that under the 2003 Palestinian Constitution Abbas clearly had the right to declare a state of emergency and dismiss the prime minister but the state of emergency could continue only for 30 days. After that it would need to be renewed by the (Hamas-dominated) Legislative Council, which also constrained the breadth of his emergency powers. Neither Hamas nor Fatah had enough votes to form a new government under the constitution.[25] The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights condemned Hamas's "decision to resolve the conflict militarily" but argued that "steps taken by President Mahmoud Abbas in response to these events violate the Basic Law and undermine the Basic Law in a manner that is no less dangerous."[26]"

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 4:07:34 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In a system where the President is elected seperate from the parliament if the parliament is one party and the president is from another does the party in the majority in the parliament have the right to use armed violence to take over a county from the central government?



Show me anything the backs up your assertion and I will gladly shut up.

Abbas has abused his office to remain in power. Please note I have already said he is the right man for the job, that doesnt make him the legitimate one though. His term as president expired in 2009 and as such the current speaker should be the interim president.....Not Abbas.

Hamas rebelled against the PA in 2007. Abbas had not yet refused to hold elections at that point so it is not relevant to the status of Gaza.



You are either missing or avoiding the point. Abbas continued his term in office of his own accord, contrary to the Palestinian Constitution. he didnt have the power to do that.

"Nathan Brown of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace commented that under the 2003 Palestinian Constitution Abbas clearly had the right to declare a state of emergency and dismiss the prime minister but the state of emergency could continue only for 30 days. After that it would need to be renewed by the (Hamas-dominated) Legislative Council, which also constrained the breadth of his emergency powers. Neither Hamas nor Fatah had enough votes to form a new government under the constitution.[25] The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights condemned Hamas's "decision to resolve the conflict militarily" but argued that "steps taken by President Mahmoud Abbas in response to these events violate the Basic Law and undermine the Basic Law in a manner that is no less dangerous."[26]"

I never said Abbas was innocent. I never said fatah was innocent. I said the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territroies. Rebelling against that authority is what Hamas did. That makes Gaza a territory in a state of rebellion all other issues aside.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 4:11:29 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Read what I have written ffs.......... Hamas now hold the Presidency as per the Palestinian Consitution, through the elected speaker.

Lest we forget, an election Israel, the west and several Arab States chose to ignore

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 4:36:36 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Read what I have written ffs.......... Hamas now hold the Presidency as per the Palestinian Consitution, through the elected speaker.

Lest we forget, an election Israel, the west and several Arab States chose to ignore

Did Hamas fulfill the rerquirements to be involved in the PA? No. They still do not recognize Israels right to exist and they continue to attack Israeli civilians. The Pa should never have let them on the ballot and no other party is bound to accept those results.

No, it isn't terribly democratic and it skirts the accepted norms of western democracies but no where did Israel agree to work with any palestinian organizations except the members of the PLO with whom they negotiated Oslo I and II. In their shoes would you work with Hamas, knowing they spread both the Blood Libel and the Protocols?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 11:12:33 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No, it isn't terribly democratic and it skirts the accepted norms of western democracies but no where did Israel agree to work with any palestinian organizations except the members of the PLO with whom they negotiated Oslo I and II. In their shoes would you work with Hamas, knowing they spread both the Blood Libel and the Protocols?


Israel operates outside the norms of western democracies but you say nothing about that. A little hypocritical don't you think?

If Israel only agrees to work with the PLO why did it agree to so called democratic elections since it obviously doesn't believe in democracy? The rejection of democracy is also against western norms isn't it?

However, a modicum of analysis reveals western democracies aren't that democratic. They are multi-party single policy states where the electorate can choose between capitalism, capitalism and capitalism, where nuances are exaggerated to the extreme to give the masses a perception of choice.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 11:15:59 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Hamas, knowing they spread both the Blood Libel and the Protocols?


Oh pullease! Not the blood libel accusation, that really is getting desperate.

Communica from the Israeli ministry of truth. If you argument collapses make the antisemitic and blood libel accusation.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 11:21:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I never said Abbas was innocent. I never said fatah was innocent. I said the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territroies. Rebelling against that authority is what Hamas did. That makes Gaza a territory in a state of rebellion all other issues aside.


Excuse me, Hamas won the elections, it was Fatah that rebeled against the Palestinian authority, after Israel, the USA and lapdog Europeans suspended aid and refused to recognise the democratically elected authority.
 
Do you always invent history to suit your point of view?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/4/2012 11:31:45 PM   
Jonc101


Posts: 122
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Australia
Status: offline 		The Israelis are losing it...in all ways!

The decision to build 3,000 Jewish settlements on Arab land is a clearly childish but dangerous act of malice and bad judgement. They're their own worst enemy and this is an 'own goal'. No way did we ever believe they were serious about their so-called 'peace talks', from Camp David to Oslo etc. Now we can see what a bunch of conniving bastards they have always been. The rockets will soon start all over again.
Let's face it, they've even lost their usual support from their allies for this act of political bastardry.

FJ

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 1:34:09 AM   
Jonc101


Posts: 122
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Australia
Status: offline 		It's futile to argue who was responsible for launching the last round of violence - Zionists, Fatah, Hamas. The problem goes back to 1948 from where we've seen several wars and hundreds of skirmishes and invasions, sequestering new territory for Israel in the Golan, West Bank and Gaza. This suits the Zionist mindset of a Jewish 'lebensraum' as their once enemy Hitler described annexation of Poland, the Saar, Czechoslovakia etc. Same tactics, different players, with the victims now the supermensch of the M/E.

In the end, at this rate, we'll still be seeing the same scenario 50 years hence. The only way forward is to establish a secular M/E Federation and drop all notions of a theocratic Jewish State, for Jews only, adopting full citizenship and further depriving the truly native Palestinians a rightful place in their own territory.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 4:31:44 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did Hamas fulfill the rerquirements to be involved in the PA? No. They still do not recognize Israels right to exist and they continue to attack Israeli civilians. The Pa should never have let them on the ballot and no other party is bound to accept those results.

No, it isn't terribly democratic and it skirts the accepted norms of western democracies but no where did Israel agree to work with any palestinian organizations except the members of the PLO with whom they negotiated Oslo I and II. In their shoes would you work with Hamas, knowing they spread both the Blood Libel and the Protocols?


See, now you are getting it, You dont like what they stand for, neither do I, but they were democratically elected.

The PA could not prevent anyone from standing in a democratic election. They could not stop people voting for them either. Are you sure the Oslo agreements say Israel will only work with Fatah, because I didnt read it that way.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 140
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