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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 5:00:38 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

Could you tell us how many treaties the u.s. made with the native americans that have been abrogated? So much for your official voice bullshit. That voice says what is convenient at the moment.

quote:

The White Christian citizens in charge of the United States agreed that the elimination of Native Americans was prudent and beneficial for the country.

Elimination???is that a euphamism for genocide?

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 5:06:27 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Uh, you have a source for these drive by shootings in cuba done by american citizens?

If you were to google "cuba complains to the u.n." you would get about 26,000,000 hits in a few microseconds. If you need to be spoon fed here is a good place to start.

http://cubanfive.ca/cuban-five-timeline/cuban-complains-to-the-un

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Post #: 142

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 7:51:47 AM

tweakabelle

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Settlement construction would stop within 24 hours if the US told Israel it was going to withdraw all support - military, political and finanical - unless the settlement construction ceased immediately.

The US's unconditional guarantee for Israeli security allows the Israelis to thumb their noses at international law and the world in general, knowing that the US will protect them from any adverse consequences to their own actions. That unconditional guarantee removes any incentive for the Israelis to modify their behaviour or demands. Naturally as long as it is there Israel will remain the belligerent aggressive apartheid State that it currently is and will continue stealing the West Bank for as long as the US permits it. Why wouldn't they?

So please stop pretending that the US is a neutral party or an innocent bystander - it supplies Israel with its arms, its training, its finance, its diplomatic cover and is its ONLY ally in the entire world.

No other country would be seen dead in alliance with such an aggressive militaristic outlaw State. Americans need to think about why that is.

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Post #: 143

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 7:54:13 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I never said Abbas was innocent. I never said fatah was innocent. I said the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territroies. Rebelling against that authority is what Hamas did. That makes Gaza a territory in a state of rebellion all other issues aside.

Excuse me, Hamas won the elections, it was Fatah that rebeled against the Palestinian authority, after Israel, the USA and lapdog Europeans suspended aid and refused to recognise the democratically elected authority.

Do you always invent history to suit your point of view?

Meatcleaver, the answer to your question is yes he does always invent history to suit his perspective on this issue.

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Post #: 144

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 1:15:53 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did Hamas fulfill the rerquirements to be involved in the PA? No. They still do not recognize Israels right to exist and they continue to attack Israeli civilians. The Pa should never have let them on the ballot and no other party is bound to accept those results.

No, it isn't terribly democratic and it skirts the accepted norms of western democracies but no where did Israel agree to work with any palestinian organizations except the members of the PLO with whom they negotiated Oslo I and II. In their shoes would you work with Hamas, knowing they spread both the Blood Libel and the Protocols?

See, now you are getting it, You dont like what they stand for, neither do I, but they were democratically elected.

The PA could not prevent anyone from standing in a democratic election. They could not stop people voting for them either. Are you sure the Oslo agreements say Israel will only work with Fatah, because I didnt read it that way.

Israel negotiated Oslo with the PLO. Only the PLO and Israel are signatories. Hamas has never been part of the PLO.

The very first requirement for the Palestinian parties at Oslo was recognizing Israel's right to exist. Hamas has never even claimed to do so.

The PA was very disfunctional and ony let Hamas stand in the election because the PLO leadership thought Hamas wouldn't win. The fact of the matter is that since Oslo is functionally the founding document of the PA an organization that has explicitly rejected Oslo has no right to stand for election under Oslo.

Gaza is not under the control of the PA and the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territories. Therefore Gaza is in a state of rebellion and international law allows, actually pretty much requires, that rebellious territories be embargoed.

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Post #: 145

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 1:17:52 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I never said Abbas was innocent. I never said fatah was innocent. I said the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territroies. Rebelling against that authority is what Hamas did. That makes Gaza a territory in a state of rebellion all other issues aside.

Excuse me, Hamas won the elections, it was Fatah that rebeled against the Palestinian authority, after Israel, the USA and lapdog Europeans suspended aid and refused to recognise the democratically elected authority.

Do you always invent history to suit your point of view?

Meatcleaver, the answer to your question is yes he does always invent history to suit his perspective on this issue.

So now you jump in to support the Munich apologst. Better rush off and report your own post else it will be hard to maintain your lie anymore.

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Post #: 146

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 2:11:57 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So now you jump in to support the Munich apologst. Better rush off and report your own post else it will be hard to maintain your lie anymore.

If you think I was an apologist for Munich you can't comprehend English and need to go back to school, I just pointed out terrorism put the Palestinian issue on the international agenda and in the wake of Munich, the murder of Palestinians stop being ignored.

However, this little rant is merely throwing shit around to obscure the fact you invent history to back up your opinion.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/5/2012 2:17:46 PM >

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Post #: 147

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 2:52:56 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Munich for all its terror put the Palestinian plight on the international map, before that, the Palestinians were ignored and left to rot or be murdered by the IDF or their proxies. No one counted the murdered Palestinians before Munich.

Quoted to show that the Munich apologist lied about his own post.

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Post #: 148

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 4:37:45 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

In case you have not realized it, the term 'terrorist' is subjective.

Hey, we gave a terrorist a state funeral a short while ago, and I wasn't the only one to sign the protocol.

Gunnar Sønsteby, a.k.a. "Nr. 24", a.k.a. "Kjakan", if you're curious.

A hero according to Norway and the Allied powers.

A terrorist according to international law.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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Post #: 149

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 5:52:16 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

In case you have not realized it, the term 'terrorist' is subjective.

Hey, we gave a terrorist a state funeral a short while ago, and I wasn't the only one to sign the protocol.

Gunnar Sønsteby, a.k.a. "Nr. 24", a.k.a. "Kjakan", if you're curious.

A hero according to Norway and the Allied powers.

A terrorist according to international law.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Mr. Sonsteby did not direct attacks against civilians from what I can find. Every account of his activities I've found says each of his acts of sabotage and violence had a specific tactical or strategic goal. That is significantly different from wearing an explosive vest into a pizza parlor.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 8:02:16 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Mr. Sonsteby did not direct attacks against civilians from what I can find.

Look closer. He's openly admitted that there were several attacks targetted at civilians, including our own citizens, and that while they'd been made on the basis of best available information, he's certain some of those civilians were innocent, which he excuses on the basis of war (but, in fact, we weren't belligerents in any war at that time, under international law).

That's just what one man openly admits to.

Depending on what sources you go by, one incident saw about a hundred dead, and about five thousand injured.

quote:

Every account of his activities I've found says each of his acts of sabotage and violence had a specific tactical or strategic goal.

All activities have a specific goal in mind, of course, including those by Palestinian terrorists.

His primary motive, as he put it, was to get back at the Germans, i.e. vengeance.

By any legal definition, including ours, he was a terrorist.

Which doesn't prevent me from lauding him.

quote:

That is significantly different from wearing an explosive vest into a pizza parlor.

I agree that a pizza parlor is a poor target if you can get at anything else.

Then again, the real targets aren't accessible in Israel, so they're down to driving the cost of occupation up to unbearable levels and provoking repeated attacks by the undisciplined and brutish IDF, thereby eroding international support for Israel and currying sympathy for the Palestinian civilian population. So far, they've made more headway with that this year alone than they have via diplomacy with Israel in the past few decades, which- given the inefficiency of that strategy- should say something about what negotiating with Israel is like.

And, of course, if you're a Palestinian, if you stick to attacking Jewish targets, there's a 90% probability that the people you attack are ones morally and financially supporting the occupation, the oppression and the killing of your own people, which is pretty close to being ethically supportable in terms of ROE and verification requirements, as well as being in line with the policies Israel itself pursues (they actively advocate ethnic profiling, for instance, and a 10% margin of error would be an improvement for them by at least two orders of magnitude). But, yeah, you're right, they should move on to attacking Tel Aviv and the like, if hostilities resume.

Not a nice situation Israel has made and continues to support.

Familiar with Maslow, by the way?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 8:14:28 PM

DomKen

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He admitted he, or people under his command, attacked suspected collaborators. What I've been unable to find is a characterization of the evidence available to him at the time.

No matter those weren't random attacks against the civilian populace for no reason at all but to terrify which is what I oppose and what has been the primary modus operandi of Hamas and the PLO.

quote:

Familiar with Maslow, by the way?

Abraham Maslow of Hierarchy of Needs? Only vaguely.

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Post #: 152

RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 10:10:40 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Munich for all its terror put the Palestinian plight on the international map, before that, the Palestinians were ignored and left to rot or be murdered by the IDF or their proxies. No one counted the murdered Palestinians before Munich.

Quoted to show that the Munich apologist lied about his own post.

No, it shows no such thing, it merely shows I stated a fact and that fact is, the Munich terrorist operation put the plight of the Palestninans on the map and after that, the murder of Palestinians by Israelis started to be counted too.

You don't only invent facts to suit your opinion, you bastardise the whole English language to suit your opinion too.

No wonder you don't want to debate, you have no arguments, you just involve yourself in ad hominem reasoning.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/5/2012 10:14:21 PM >

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/5/2012 10:39:39 PM

Jonc101

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The Munich massacre certainly DID galvanise the Israelis. I was on a kibbutz at the time, the wailing and gnashing of teeth was everywhere!

FJ

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 4:53:50 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel negotiated Oslo with the PLO. Only the PLO and Israel are signatories. Hamas has never been part of the PLO.

The very first requirement for the Palestinian parties at Oslo was recognizing Israel's right to exist. Hamas has never even claimed to do so.

The PA was very disfunctional and ony let Hamas stand in the election because the PLO leadership thought Hamas wouldn't win. The fact of the matter is that since Oslo is functionally the founding document of the PA an organization that has explicitly rejected Oslo has no right to stand for election under Oslo.

Gaza is not under the control of the PA and the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territories. Therefore Gaza is in a state of rebellion and international law allows, actually pretty much requires, that rebellious territories be embargoed.

Blinks............ Do you see how convoluted your argument is Ken ?

Are you really suggesting that because the PLO didnt expect Hamas to win, the fact Hamas won still doesnt count for anything.

To use the vernacular.......Thats bollocks.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 6:03:52 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonc101

The Munich massacre certainly DID galvanise the Israelis. I was on a kibbutz at the time, the wailing and gnashing of teeth was everywhere!

FJ

Munich is iconic because it was played out on TV (and much later a Hollywood film was made to maintain its iconism) but it wasn't the worst terrorist attack commited by either side up to that date or since. It is iconic for several reasons, it happened in Germany, the land of the holocaust, it was the Olympics which are laughingly supposed to be about nations burying their differences for two weeks (Moscow and Los Angeles proved that wrong) and PLO international terrorism burst onto the scene making the Israeli-Palestinian an issue the international community couldn't ignore.

While DomKen keeps ranting on about Munich, he ignores Israeli involvement in the Shabra and Shatilla refugee masacre of around 2,000 Palestinian civilians, the Israeli army surrounding the refugee camps and firing flares while Phalangists slaughtered the captive Palestinian civilians. He also dismisses the mass killings in Gaza in which 300 children and around 400 women were killed, citing it was Palestinian responsibility for wanting the freedom I suppose. Well, no, the IDF were either criminally negligent or were actually murderers. International observers witnessing the events suggest it was a bit of both.

We all know we can make endless lists of masacres on both sides though the body count is 7,317 Palestinians and 1097 since the '87 uprising speak for themselves, when you look at how many are women and children were murdered and how many are Palestinian fighters or Israeli troops killed. The figures suggest the Israelis are just as happy to murder women and children as the palestininian terrorists, with the Israelis being far more successful at it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/6/2012 6:06:23 AM >

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 6:20:35 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Israel negotiated Oslo with the PLO. Only the PLO and Israel are signatories. Hamas has never been part of the PLO.

The very first requirement for the Palestinian parties at Oslo was recognizing Israel's right to exist. Hamas has never even claimed to do so.

The PA was very disfunctional and ony let Hamas stand in the election because the PLO leadership thought Hamas wouldn't win. The fact of the matter is that since Oslo is functionally the founding document of the PA an organization that has explicitly rejected Oslo has no right to stand for election under Oslo.

Gaza is not under the control of the PA and the PA is the sole legal palestinian authority in the territories. Therefore Gaza is in a state of rebellion and international law allows, actually pretty much requires, that rebellious territories be embargoed.

Blinks............ Do you see how convoluted your argument is Ken ?

Are you really suggesting that because the PLO didnt expect Hamas to win, the fact Hamas won still doesnt count for anything.

To use the vernacular.......Thats bollocks.

No. I'm saying Hamas did not meet the preconditions for participation. The PA should not have ever let them on to the ballot but Fatah thought Hamas would lose in the election and that would hurt Hamas.

That is after all the substance of the reason no one recognizes your fantasy Hamas led PA.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 6:28:02 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. I'm saying Hamas did not meet the preconditions for participation. The PA should not have ever let them on to the ballot but Fatah thought Hamas would lose in the election and that would hurt Hamas.

That is after all the substance of the reason no one recognizes your fantasy Hamas led PA.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!! The only advice one can give to someone in a hole, is to stop digging.

Now you are saying the Palestinian democratic election should not have been democratic! Whatever next are you going to come up with? What is the point of a democratic election when the largest party is banned? You are beginning to sound like you are an admirer of Iranian theocracy.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 6:28:08 AM

DomKen

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Now the Munich apologist is trying to justify the events of 1972 by bringing up an event in 1982.

Here's a quick injection of truth, targeting civilians is never acceptable. Munich can never be justified.

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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 6:33:34 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Now the Munich apologist is trying to justify the events of 1972 by bringing up an event in 1982.

Here's a quick injection of truth, targeting civilians is never acceptable. Munich can never be justified.

DomKen , you are talking bullshit and you have been justifying the Israeli targeting of civilians since you started posting on this thread.

Who justified Munich? Not me. Take some English comprehension lessons, you desperately need them. Muinich was just one atrocity in an endless list of atrocities, there is nothing special about it other than it was on TV. If the Israeli murder of 300 Palestinian children was on TV, it would be iconic but it wasn't and isn't iconic but it was a much worse atrocity than Munich.

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