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RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 3:57:09 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. I'm saying Hamas did not meet the preconditions for participation. The PA should not have ever let them on to the ballot but Fatah thought Hamas would lose in the election and that would hurt Hamas.

That is after all the substance of the reason no one recognizes your fantasy Hamas led PA.


And I am sure you have posted a link backing up your nonsense about Hamas not being qualified to take part in Palestinian Elections........

Oh wait....... maybe not.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 4:15:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. I'm saying Hamas did not meet the preconditions for participation. The PA should not have ever let them on to the ballot but Fatah thought Hamas would lose in the election and that would hurt Hamas.

That is after all the substance of the reason no one recognizes your fantasy Hamas led PA.


And I am sure you have posted a link backing up your nonsense about Hamas not being qualified to take part in Palestinian Elections........

Oh wait....... maybe not.


Was Hamas a signatory in either Oslo accord? Did Hamas ever fulfill any of the palestinian obligations from Oslo? Does Hamas advocate racism and engage in violence?
Oslo 2 Article III
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/iaannex2.html#article3

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 4:26:00 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Ken, stop arguing about something that I havent said......... I asked for ANY link saying Hamas were unqualified to take part in the elections.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/6/2012 10:11:06 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ken, stop arguing about something that I havent said......... I asked for ANY link saying Hamas were unqualified to take part in the elections.


You're wasting your time Polite, he has no comprehension of the English language.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 2:40:07 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Ken, stop arguing about something that I havent said......... I asked for ANY link saying Hamas were unqualified to take part in the elections.

Did you read the link? Hamas was not qualified to particpate in any election under Oslo 2.

from above
quote:



    1. Nominations
    2. The nomination of any candidates, parties or coalitions will be refused, and such nomination or registration once made will be canceled, if such candidates, parties or coalitions:

    4. commit or advocate racism; or
    5. pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or non- democratic means.


    • (in reply to Politesub53)
    Profile   Post #: 165
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:12:23 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Politesub53

    Ken, stop arguing about something that I havent said......... I asked for ANY link saying Hamas were unqualified to take part in the elections.

    Did you read the link? Hamas was not qualified to particpate in any election under Oslo 2.

    from above
    quote:


    1. Nominations
    2. The nomination of any candidates, parties or coalitions will be refused, and such nomination or registration once made will be canceled, if such candidates, parties or coalitions:

    4. commit or advocate racism; or
    5. pursue the implementation of their aims by unlawful or non- democratic means.





    • If they were not qualified to participate, why were they allowed to?

    Or were they only allowed to participate because it was thought they would lose?

    You seem to suggest the elections under the Oslo agreement were no better than elections in Belarus, never mind Russia or Iran.

    The truth is, without Hamas participation the elections would have no credibility and would have been boycotted by the majority of the Palestinians.

    This is another case of the west and the USA in particular, pontificating about democracy but hates the idea of democracy that doesn't endorse western or US and its allies interests.

    However, Hamas was allowed to participate and they won the election so you are 100% WRONG!

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/7/2012 3:13:13 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 166
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:59:58 AM   
    tweakabelle


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    quote:



    If they were not qualified to participate, why were they allowed to?

    Or were they only allowed to participate because it was thought they would lose?

    You seem to suggest the elections under the Oslo agreement were no better than elections in Belarus, never mind Russia or Iran.

    The truth is, without Hamas participation the elections would have no credibility and would have been boycotted by the majority of the Palestinians.

    This is another case of the west and the USA in particular, pontificating about democracy but hates the idea of democracy that doesn't endorse western or US and its allies interests.

    However, Hamas was allowed to participate and they won the election so you are 100% WRONG!


    I have found over posting here for some time that DomKen's real problem with Hamas is that Hamas often uses the exact same tactics and strategies that Irgun, Hagannah and other such as the Lehi (Nazi collaborators BTW) used in the period up to 1949 against both the British and the indigenous people. After Israeli Independence, these groups became the Israeli Defence Forces.

    As such it's far too close to the bone for him to have any kind of objective understanding or perspective. Such people are best left to their crocodile tears.

    If anyone is unable to see the 'Palestinian terrorism' is caused by the Israeli policies of dispossession, occupation, apartheid and military rule, then they are ignorant or blind to the facts. Isn't a military occupation terrorism on grand scale - the brutal military subjugation of an entire people, together with, in this particular instance, the theft of their homeland?

    By any standard that qualifies as rule by terror. Sadly the death stats confirm this.

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    Profile   Post #: 167
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 4:43:17 AM   
    Aylee


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    quote:



    If they were not qualified to participate, why were they allowed to?

    Or were they only allowed to participate because it was thought they would lose?

    You seem to suggest the elections under the Oslo agreement were no better than elections in Belarus, never mind Russia or Iran.

    The truth is, without Hamas participation the elections would have no credibility and would have been boycotted by the majority of the Palestinians.

    This is another case of the west and the USA in particular, pontificating about democracy but hates the idea of democracy that doesn't endorse western or US and its allies interests.

    However, Hamas was allowed to participate and they won the election so you are 100% WRONG!


    I have found over posting here for some time that DomKen's real problem with Hamas is that Hamas often uses the exact same tactics and strategies that Irgun, Hagannah and other such as the Lehi (Nazi collaborators BTW) used in the period up to 1949 against both the British and the indigenous people. After Israeli Independence, these groups became the Israeli Defence Forces.

    As such it's far too close to the bone for him to have any kind of objective understanding or perspective. Such people are best left to their crocodile tears.

    If anyone is unable to see the 'Palestinian terrorism' is caused by the Israeli policies of dispossession, occupation, apartheid and military rule, then they are ignorant or blind to the facts. Isn't a military occupation terrorism on grand scale - the brutal military subjugation of an entire people, together with, in this particular instance, the theft of their homeland?

    By any standard that qualifies as rule by terror. Sadly the death stats confirm this.


    Then why won't Jordan or Syria or Egypt accept these refugees? 

    They are only useful to the Arab leadership where they are now. I am willing to bet serious money that, if Israel announces in full seriousness that they are going to 'go Tamerlane' on Gaza's population, the Arab world will maybe accept a few thousand token refugees. The rest will be deliberately left to be butchered.
     
    No, Israel pretty much HAS to deal with Gaza's population in place. And I doubt that anything less than a complete military occupation, with total takeover of everything: governance, policing, municipal services, healthcare, education - and a rather brutal suppression of any attempts at resistance, will ever solve this problem.
     
     





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    Profile   Post #: 168
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 5:37:48 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aylee

    Then why won't Jordan or Syria or Egypt accept these refugees? 



    Because the palestinians are refugees in their own land and accepting them would lose them any claim to the land stolen from them as Israel does not give the right of return.

    Also, it the Arab world is not a homogenous world, it is as different and as varied as the European world. 

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Alyee

    No, Israel pretty much HAS to deal with Gaza's population in place. And I doubt that anything less than a complete military occupation, with total takeover of everything: governance, policing, municipal services, healthcare, education - and a rather brutal suppression of any attempts at resistance, will ever solve this problem.



    If you are suggesting the Palestinians should be given full citizenship of Israel, that would end Israel as a Jewish state because the population would be split 50% Jewish, 46% Palestinian and 4% other. Israel is totally against such an idea which is why it has taken the road of apartheid.

    The real problem is Israel's. what the fuck do they do with the Palestinians if they steal their land to incorporate into a greater Israel. The world won't allow a genocide nor will it accept ethnic cleansing, however, the Israeli policy appears to be a slow burn ethnic cleansing. Make life so bad and brutal for the Palestinians they will slowly leave and leave the occupied territories to be fully appropriated by Israel and Israelis.


    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/7/2012 5:39:03 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 169
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 5:51:07 AM   
    tweakabelle


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aylee

    quote:

    Then why won't Jordan or Syria or Egypt accept these refugees? 


    Because it's not an Egyptian or Syrian or Jordanian problem.

    Such questions only appear to make sense if one views all Arabs as 'the same'. This inherently racist stance (as pointed out above, it is exactly like saying English, French and Germans are all the same ie nonsense) cannot possibly contribute to a solution, no matter how much Zionists fervently desire it. (It is tantmount to making the problem disappear for Israel, which caused the problem of refugees in the first place). It just won't wash.

    quote:

    No, Israel pretty much HAS to deal with Gaza's population in place. And I doubt that anything less than a complete military occupation, with total takeover of everything: governance, policing, municipal services, healthcare, education - and a rather brutal suppression of any attempts at resistance, will ever solve this problem.


    If by this you mean a bi-national State of Jews and Palestinians and all other residents of that part of the world enjoying equal status and equal rights then you have proposed a viable solution. Bearing in mind your past comments on this issue, I doubt that but would love to be wrong. The difficulties preventing this solution being implemented have been outlined above - it is the end of the Zionist dream and if it happens (and it's looking increasingly unavoidable), Zionists will have no one to blame but themselves, their greed and their intransigence.

    < Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/7/2012 5:55:06 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 170
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:06:30 PM   
    DomKen


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    I have found over posting here for some time that DomKen's real problem with Hamas is that Hamas often uses the exact same tactics and strategies that Irgun, Hagannah and other such as the Lehi (Nazi collaborators BTW) used in the period up to 1949 against both the British and the indigenous people. After Israeli Independence, these groups became the Israeli Defence Forces.

    More proof.

    Lehi was never collaborators with the Nazis. They did propose working with the Nazis in exchange for the Grmans and Italians helping transfer every Jew in europe to the Mandate. The deal was never concluded and Lehi lost almost all popular support after the contact became public. It should come as no surprise to non antisemites that Jews had political beliefs across the full spectrum of political thought. So of course there were a few hundred Jews in the Mandate who were extreme rightists. Just as their were and are Australian antisemites even today.

    As to the strategies involed? When precisely did Irgun etc. attack young people involved in an international sporting event?

    As to indigenous people, tweak is apparently of the belief, commonly held by antisemites, that the Jews are not descendants of the people expelled by the Romans. Which pretty obviously makes the Jews the actual indigenous peoples of Israel and the Palestinians the settlers.

    quote:

    If anyone is unable to see the 'Palestinian terrorism' is caused by the Israeli policies of dispossession, occupation, apartheid and military rule, then they are ignorant or blind to the facts. Isn't a military occupation terrorism on grand scale - the brutal military subjugation of an entire people, together with, in this particular instance, the theft of their homeland?

    The PLO was founded in 1964. Israel conquered the territories in 1967. So what exactly is the cause of Palestinian terrorism again? And do try not to simply make shit up again.

    (in reply to tweakabelle)
    Profile   Post #: 171
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:17:45 PM   
    DomKen


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aylee

    quote:

    Then why won't Jordan or Syria or Egypt accept these refugees? 


    Because it's not an Egyptian or Syrian or Jordanian problem.

    Such questions only appear to make sense if one views all Arabs as 'the same'. This inherently racist stance (as pointed out above, it is exactly like saying English, French and Germans are all the same ie nonsense) cannot possibly contribute to a solution, no matter how much Zionists fervently desire it. (It is tantmount to making the problem disappear for Israel, which caused the problem of refugees in the first place). It just won't wash.

    The English, French and Germans all speak the same language and follow the same religion?

    Palestinains are factually exactly like Egyptians, Jordanians, Lenanese and Syrians because most of the people claiming to be Palestinians are actually from those nations. Economic development and new water wells, both effects of Jewish migration, attracted arab migrants from the surrounding areas under both the Ottomans and the Mandate. In certain people's imagination this makes them indigenous people.

    (in reply to tweakabelle)
    Profile   Post #: 172
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:49:06 PM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    The PLO was founded in 1964. Israel conquered the territories in 1967. So what exactly is the cause of Palestinian terrorism again? And do try not to simply make shit up again.


    Yes, as a political organisation. It only practiced and advocated terrorism after the occupation in the early 70s, such as your shock horror Munich Olympic masacre which internationalised the issue of the Palestinians and the idea of a right of a homeland if not the right to return, which was the PLO's original aim.

    There is an irony here.  The PLO originally advocated the intergrity of Palestine which has a footprint which Israel wants as greater israel as a unitary state of all the people of Palestine along with the right of return for ethnically cleansed Arabs, thus thwarting a zionist state. However, Israel seems intent on the geographical territory of an integral Palestine but with the name Israel and this would mean it will lock itself into an apartheid regime unless it makes the Palestinians full citizens, thus thwarting the zionist state. Of course Israel doesn't want this, it wants to get rid of the Palestinians but the problem is how. Israel must know or perhaps hatred blinds it, that an apartheid state will eventually collapse, even if it takes 50 years.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/7/2012 3:58:57 PM >

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    Profile   Post #: 173
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 3:55:33 PM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    The English, French and Germans all speak the same language and follow the same religion?

    Palestinains are factually exactly like Egyptians, Jordanians, Lenanese and Syrians because most of the people claiming to be Palestinians are actually from those nations. Economic development and new water wells, both effects of Jewish migration, attracted arab migrants from the surrounding areas under both the Ottomans and the Mandate. In certain people's imagination this makes them indigenous people.


    Here is someone who wants to create a fiction to prove his opinion. The Arabs are not the same people. Arab is a generic term for a culture that was superimposed over a large geograpghical area in the same way Ancient Rome  superimposed its culture over most of Europe. Rome didn't make all Europe the same and Arab conquests didn't make all the Arab world the same.

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    Profile   Post #: 174
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 4:15:09 PM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    Economic development and new water wells, both effects of Jewish migration, attracted arab migrants from the surrounding areas under both the Ottomans and the Mandate. In certain people's imagination this makes them indigenous people.


    The Jewish emigrtion was largely post Ottoman Empire. In 1914 there were 60,000 Jews in Palestine to 730,000 Arabs. 1940 there were 475,000 Jews to 1,500,000 Arabs. Today there is 5,275,000 Jews and 5,200,000 Arabs.

    So I'm wandering what you warbling about the Ottoman empire is about. Jewish immigration has been relatively recent and post Ottoman Empire. From the statisitics it is quite clear who the cuckoo in the nest is and whose land is being stolen.

    You are involved in fantasy history again.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/7/2012 4:16:13 PM >

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    Profile   Post #: 175
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/7/2012 9:41:22 PM   
    DomKen


    Posts: 19457
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    The PLO was founded in 1964. Israel conquered the territories in 1967. So what exactly is the cause of Palestinian terrorism again? And do try not to simply make shit up again.


    Yes, as a political organisation. It only practiced and advocated terrorism after the occupation in the early 70s, such as your shock horror Munich Olympic masacre which internationalised the issue of the Palestinians and the idea of a right of a homeland if not the right to return, which was the PLO's original aim.

    Fatah existed since 1959 and committed acts of terror against civilians from at least 1965 onward.
    Jan. 1 1965 Fatah attempts to bomb the Israeli National Water Carrier
    July 5 1965 Fatah blants bombs at multiple sites in Israel

    So once again the Munich apologist is simply making shit up.

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 176
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/8/2012 1:47:13 AM   
    meatcleaver


    Posts: 9030
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    The PLO was founded in 1964. Israel conquered the territories in 1967. So what exactly is the cause of Palestinian terrorism again? And do try not to simply make shit up again.


    Yes, as a political organisation. It only practiced and advocated terrorism after the occupation in the early 70s, such as your shock horror Munich Olympic masacre which internationalised the issue of the Palestinians and the idea of a right of a homeland if not the right to return, which was the PLO's original aim.

    Fatah existed since 1959 and committed acts of terror against civilians from at least 1965 onward.
    Jan. 1 1965 Fatah attempts to bomb the Israeli National Water Carrier
    July 5 1965 Fatah blants bombs at multiple sites in Israel

    So once again the Munich apologist is simply making shit up.


    There you go again changing facts to suit your opinion. You were talking about the PLO, not Fatah. Fatah DIDN"T JOIN THE PLO until 1967!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Anyway you are being ludricous about Palestinian violence pre-1967, this conflict has been going on since early in the century and late last century has its roots.

    If you hate terrorism so much why are you such a strong Israeli supporter? Nearly every Israeli Prime Minister has been a terrorist!!!!
     
    Apart from Netanyahu who is a cowardly administrative psycho along the lines of many leading Nazis.

    < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/8/2012 1:48:05 AM >

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    Profile   Post #: 177
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/8/2012 6:14:54 AM   
    Aswad


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    He admitted he, or people under his command, attacked suspected collaborators.


    Yes, they assassinated suspected collaborators they could get to. He's openly admitted that in some cases they will have been wrong and have killed innocent civilians that didn't collaborate. It's also a matter of public record that this was legally terrorism at the time. Until they got citizenship with one of the belligerent parties, they were terrorists, which Nazi Germany pointed out, and pursued the same way terrorism is pursued in e.g. Israel.

    quote:

    What I've been unable to find is a characterization of the evidence available to him at the time.


    Much of this is going to be in Norwegian. It's also not going to be of much interest, since he has been clear he's crossed the line and that he doesn't regret that; I happen to be quite happy that he did (and others with him).

    quote:

    No matter those weren't random attacks against the civilian populace for no reason at all but to terrify which is what I oppose and what has been the primary modus operandi of Hamas and the PLO.


    Don't confuse the means with the ends.

    quote:

    Abraham Maslow of Hierarchy of Needs? Only vaguely.


    Revisit it and tell me what level you think the Palestinian population has covered, vs the Israeli population.

    Then try pondering what that implies about their thinking in the situation the Palestinians are in.

    Morality is a luxury the Israeli aren't really affording the Palestinians at the moment.

    IWYW,
    — Aswad.


    _____________________________

    "If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
    From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
    We do.    " -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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    Profile   Post #: 178
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/8/2012 6:19:29 AM   
    Aswad


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DomKen

    Here's a quick injection of truth, targeting civilians is never acceptable.


    Bullshit. It's rarely acceptable in "civilized" war, but it's absolutely called for in a war for survival.

    The persistent question regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki is whether it was necessary.

    IWYW,
    — Aswad.


    _____________________________

    "If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
    From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
    We do.    " -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


    (in reply to DomKen)
    Profile   Post #: 179
    RE: Palestine gets UN observer status. - 12/8/2012 6:31:00 AM   
    Aswad


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Aylee

    Then why won't Jordan or Syria or Egypt accept these refugees? 


    What bearing does this have on what Israel does?

    Except to note the Palestinians don't have a recourse, I mean.

    quote:

    No, Israel pretty much HAS to deal with Gaza's population in place. And I doubt that anything less than a complete military occupation, with total takeover of everything: governance, policing, municipal services, healthcare, education - and a rather brutal suppression of any attempts at resistance, will ever solve this problem.


    They've essentially done that. It didn't solve the problem.

    As others have pointed out, they can either accord full citizenship and live with being a minority in a democratic country (I think you can see why they don't particularly like that idea), or they can go for the two state solution (in which case they have to abide by the rules of war, among other things, another idea they don't like, not that they're fond of the idea of a two state solution in the first place).

    This comes down to the same thing Europe and North America have already dealt with. The fellahin were a slave population. The Zionists bought the land from the aristocracy, then got rid of the aristocratic system, except they want to keep in place the old system for this one group, because actually implementing a casteless society would mean they end up as a minority in their own country and have to take the consequences of the new system they have put into place, and the alternative would be to give up land, with either solution being painful.

    Guess what: a revolution that ditches caste separation is never pleasant for the privileged caste.

    IWYW,
    — Aswad.


    _____________________________

    "If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
    From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
    We do.    " -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


    (in reply to Aylee)
    Profile   Post #: 180
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