RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate the other.

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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 5:58:51 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

It was the other thread, and I was writing my take on it when Chi locked the thread, but I didn't save the text, so it's lost.

As per my current policy, I'm not writing it again.

FYI, if you get an error message when you submit a post, you can generally hit the back button, get back to your post, and save the text.

However, a conversation along the lines of "poster X is [something derogatory] because of [lifestyle preference/kink preference]" would violate the Forum Guidelines above as well as being a personal attack.

I don't see a general convo about "'slave mentalities' in relation to those who wanted to restrict gun usage" being allowed in P&R any more than I do a "Goreans and guns" conversation being allowed here but I can take this up with Alpha if desired.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 261

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:03:26 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

What the fuck do you need with all of that?

What does anyone need with anything, really?

I have a nice statue of King Leonidas.

I don't need it for anything.

Is that a requirement?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

This discussion can no longer afford to be had on such levels Aswad.
Your statue of King Leonidas poses absolutely no threat to others.
Assault weapons have proved to be a very great risk,to a great amount of people,in a very short span of time
Therefore they need to be regulated....when you can ay the same about your statue than I am sure the authorities in your country will consider appropriate restricions.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 262

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:04:43 AM

VideoAdminChi

Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

I would refer you to one of the other threads, where Jeff made an excellent statement on this, but like all good threads, it was pulled.

If I get a lot of tickets on a particular thread, or in the course of addressing a ticket notice many additional violations, I will often pull it to clean it, and then put it back. If you PM me about the thread in question, I will look into its status.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 263

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:11:14 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You lost me here.

Basically, I was saying we can reach an agreement, but the road to an agreement is via "there's a problem, and here's how we fix it", not via "who needs...?", because the latter isn't even a valid question from my stance, while the former is a valid concern- solving problems, I can do.

Seems the rifle used is available in Norway, incidentally, though it's not as widespread.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

There are 20 dead children,7 dead adults...and you see this as an exercise in language ?
A word game maybe /
I don't care how you phrase it ,how the words are parsed...all I care is that my President follows thru with meaningful action.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 264

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:31:27 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Dear VideoAdminChi,

First, I honestly don't care one way or the other about the lost content, or why it went away, or what gets taken up with who or not.

Once it's gone, it's done, and I don't write anything worth caring about losing, now.

Second, my policy is an adaptation to the new CM, not an issue with any individual moderator.

Third, the term "slave mentalities" and the thing it refers to is the subject of writings by Nietzsche, Brandes, Ibsen, and others, and by no means exclusive to Goreans, so your comment on that point is the sort I would personally consider a lot more appropriate to voice under another hat than the VA one, but Jeff shortly thereafter did a decent job of defining the core issue with a good wording that was context independent and avoided the use of a technical term that may admittedly seem offensive to those not familiar with it, which was as much headway as we've made on any GC debate in PR to my recollection, ever.

Fourth, I originally made a quick reply to Peon, and this conversation could've been had elsewhere; it's going off topic.

I wish you well,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)

Post #: 265

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:40:32 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Mike is talking about a ban on a particular type of weapon, and to an extent I agree.

However, it is not the weapon that is the real issue, it is the number of rounds that it has the capability to put down range, and in that respect there is something that can be done to limit that capability.

First let's talk about the original ban signed by Clinton. The ATF and the Justice Department wrote reports after the ban expired and reported that it did nothing that it was supposed to do. The ban was ineffective. Matter of public record.

Then there was the ban on certain weapons that stopped the importation of those weapons. For example, one of those weapons was the Dragunov, a Soviet era sniper rifle. The maximum number of rounds in a magazine for that particular weapon is 10. As far as it being used in a mass shooting, it is too long and bulky for that. For hunting from a deer stand or blind, it is perfect. But is also perfect for a Charles Whitman type shooter, but so is your standard bolt action rifle and scope.

You want to stop mass shootings, outlaw large capacity magazines. I have never needed more than five rounds for hunting, and while it is tedious to continuously reload on a range, I and any other sane shooter could live with it.

Or make it so that anyone that owns a weapon and is so irresponsible that someone could get it and us it in a mass shooting is charged as an accessory to the crime with a mandatory life sentence. No plea bargain.

Automatic life sentence for someone using a gun in the commission of a crime when no one is hurt, no plea bargain.

Kill someone with a gun, automatic death sentence, no plea bargain.

There are longer mandatory sentences for drug dealers and traffickers, has that eliminated the problem of drugs, no. It has our prisons over crowded.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 266

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:42:23 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Assault weapons have proved to be a very great risk,to a great amount of people,in a very short span of time

There is absolutely no difference between what it pleases you to style an "assault weapon" and any other firearm from the smallest pistol on up that doesn't have to be recycled manually to chamber a fresh round. Whining about so-called "assault weapons" is a dog and pony show. What you're talking about is guns period.

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 267

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 6:53:05 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

This discussion can no longer afford to be had on such levels Aswad.

Kindly stuff it:

One group doesn't get to set the parameters of governance on behalf of the rest of the population.

Similarly, one poster doesn't get to set the parameters of debate on behalf of the rest of the participants.

quote:

when you can ay the same about your statue than I am sure the authorities in your country will consider appropriate restricions.

I think it's already endangered, on account of too high heavy metal content, to which I can only say as it does: moλov λaße.

— Aswad.

P.S.: I was alerted to the post I replied to. I usually don't see yours, as per our conversation. Please don't waste more time on me.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 268

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 7:39:40 AM

igor2003

Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Or make it so that anyone that owns a weapon and is so irresponsible that someone could get it and us it in a mass shooting is charged as an accessory to the crime with a mandatory life sentence. No plea bargain.

I can agree with a lot of what you had to say, but not the above statement.

Okay...if someone leaves a weapon in plain sight on the seat of an unattended car. Yes, I could see that as being irresponsible.

If someone goes to the store for a few minutes and leaves their home unlocked, letting someone just walk in and grab an unsecured gun. Okay...maybe.

If someone goes to the store for a few minutes and leaves their home locked, but the gun(s) in plain sight, and someone kicks in the door to take their gun(s). Now, I'm thinking no.

What is it that determines whether someone is "so irresponsible that someone could get it and us it"?

Guns have been stolen from military bases. In those instances, would the military bases be considered "irresponsible", and if so, how do you impose a mandatory life sentence on them for being so?

Someone in one of the threads mentioned that they had a 300 lb. gun safe. (That may even have been you, but I don't remember for sure.) I have a hand truck that is rated for 800 lbs. Unless that gun safe is bolted or otherwise secured, I could go in and cart that gun safe away in a matter of minutes. So, I guess that person would have to be considered irresponsible...right?

I helped build a house for an avid hunter. He had bought property on the Boise River, and he could walk less than 100 yards from his home to some of the best duck and goose hunting in the state. In the basement of his house he had a large, walk-in vault built in for storing his guns and other valuables. Eight inch thick, steel re-enforced concrete walls, and a 1000 lb steel vault door with a combination lock. Would you say that was "responsible"? And yet he had one major fault in his planning, and in knowing that fault I could be into that vault in less than 5 minutes. The ceiling for the vault was nothing more than the floor for the master bed room that was above it, and could quickly be cut through with a chain saw. And if that were to happen he could be sent to prison for life because he was "so irresponsible" that someone was able to get to his guns.

So one person leaves his guns in a locked house. Another person leaves their guns in a gun safe that can be carted away. And another person builds a massive vault, though it has a flaw. Why would one be any more "irresponsible" than another?

While I agree that there are problems that need to be addressed, I definitely don't think that finding ways of shifting blame to law abiding citizens is the way to do it.

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 269

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 9:51:40 AM

Just0Plain0Mike

Posts: 127
Joined: 6/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Or make it so that anyone that owns a weapon and is so irresponsible that someone could get it and us it in a mass shooting is charged as an accessory to the crime with a mandatory life sentence. No plea bargain.

I can agree with a lot of what you had to say, but not the above statement.

<Lots of Snippage>

While I agree that there are problems that need to be addressed, I definitely don't think that finding ways of shifting blame to law abiding citizens is the way to do it.

Thank you Igor, you beat me to it. I typically agree with JLF, but that premise seems ridiculously over-simplified.

How secure is secure enough? There's not much in the way of locks that can't be defeated with enough time. Can you say with absolute certainty that your weapons are so secure that it's 100% impossible for them to be stolen?

If someone breaks into my house and steals my property, am I liable for everything he steals, or just my guns? I own a welding torch, what if he steals my welding torch and uses it to break into someone else's gun-safe?

If I'm carrying, legally, and someone gets the jump on me and robs me, am I then responsible?

What if I'm robbed in my home and forced to open my safe?

And as to mandatory death sentences if you "kill someone with a gun", why is death by gun inherently worse then any other death? Also, where does self-defense enter into this?

I hate to paraphrase here but, outlaw high-capacity mags and only outlaws will have high-capacity mags. Doesn't flow as well as the original, but just as true. If gun-control laws don't stop criminals from getting guns, why do you think magazine control laws will keep them from getting those?

(in reply to igor2003)

Post #: 270

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 10:28:13 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

I was speaking under general circumstances, not the abnormal.

As for if the weapon is stolen, the responsible thing is to report it immediately.

As for military weapons being stolen, that is a different point entirely.

My weapons and ammo are stored separately and both the safe and the lock box the ammo is in require a code on a keypad and a separate key. expensive solution, yes, and in my opinion reasonable.

But tell me, how responsible is it to keep a large number of weapons in glass fronted cabinets with a $15 dollar lock in a wood frame?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Just0Plain0Mike)

Post #: 271

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 12:43:41 PM

Just0Plain0Mike

Posts: 127
Joined: 6/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I was speaking under general circumstances, not the abnormal.

As for if the weapon is stolen, the responsible thing is to report it immediately.

As for military weapons being stolen, that is a different point entirely.

My weapons and ammo are stored separately and both the safe and the lock box the ammo is in require a code on a keypad and a separate key. expensive solution, yes, and in my opinion reasonable.

But tell me, how responsible is it to keep a large number of weapons in glass fronted cabinets with a $15 dollar lock in a wood frame?

Ok, got it. I misunderstood. The way it was phrased, it sounded like even if you reported it, you were at fault just for having it stolen.

I have a gun cabinet like you're talking about, my wife got it for me to keep my swords in. That's about all I'm willing to keep "secure" in there. I keep most of my guns in lock-boxes.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 272

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 12:51:15 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

I don't think any of the gun control crowd is under the impression that it will eliminate mass murder but that regulation would mitigate the frequency of such events.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 273

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 1:24:51 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

It's the same old argument that's been going on for decades, yet we still see events like Newtown happening all too regularly.

It was the same sort of futile argument for the arms race during the cold war era.
The US's idea was to have better and more weapons than the Ruskies with which to defend themselves.
The USSR was thinking along the same lines.
Every single westerner on russian territory was eyed with suspicion and considered a spy.
The same for any Russian in America.
Everyone on both sides of the fence was worried about who was going to press the big red button first whenever any minor skirmish or event happened around the world where either side was considered a 'friend' of the aggrieved nation.

Now, for the first time in a very very long time, the US and USSR aren't at each other's throats and the majority of the world can breathe a lot more easier than they could during those times.
And why is this??
Because both sides agreed to drastically reduce the number of arms and military that they have in their arsenal.

And that's the way to go with personal arms in the US.
You don't need more weapons for defence against guns, you need less weapons so that guns aren't the weapon of choice for these unhinged nutters.
Sure, it won't eradicate gun crime - nobody is suggesting that it would.
But if the number of guns were significantly reduced, the regularity of these incidents would also reduce because the guns wouldn't be so readily available to the nutters.

Even Obama said as much in his speech last night in Newtown.
At what point do the lives of innocent children ever be less than the price of some freedoms??
He also said that if he and his office can do something meaningful to save the lives of just ONE innocent child, or parent, then things have to change.

I think the gun lobbyists need to seriously think about that.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 274

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 1:43:26 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Uh, may I ask a simple question?

Considering guns are easier to smuggle than drugs, and the ATF has intercepted large numbers of guns entering the country, what do you propose to do about the guns that weren't intercepted.

Hell we cant even keep the illegal aliens with back packs full of cocaine from coming across the Mexican border, unless we put an ICE agent every five feet along the border and inspect every vehicle that crosses the border by tearing every body panel in it out, and inspecting every box and crate in every container that arrives in every port and crosses the borders every day, how in the hell to you propose to keep the damn things out?

2000 people a year die by privately owned and legal guns of all types and calibers.

30000 men, women and children die each year by illegal guns in the hands of gang members.

Save 2000 and ignore the others because the majority if them live in poor neighborhoods where drive by shootings are the norm.

You come up with a way to effectively and realistically get rid of every illegal gun in this country and keep more from getting in, then we can talk. Until then, more people are gonna die with illegal guns and a fucking hell of a lot of them are going to be kids.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 275

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 1:48:34 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Assault weapons have proved to be a very great risk,to a great amount of people,in a very short span of time

There is absolutely no difference between what it pleases you to style an "assault weapon" and any other firearm from the smallest pistol on up that doesn't have to be recycled manually to chamber a fresh round. Whining about so-called "assault weapons" is a dog and pony show. What you're talking about is guns period.

K.

Nonsense.

Assault rifles are designed to be shorter and lighter than WW2 battle rifles which makes them inaccurate at range but makes them quicker on target at short range and easier to handle in close quarters. They fire high velocity lower caliber rounds than those battle rifles which are again pretty lousy for anything beside killing people at relatively short range. They include a removable box magazine rather than an internal clip which facilitates firing a lot of rounds very quickly which is, again, of no particular benefit except when trying to kill a lot of people.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/17/2012 1:50:04 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 276

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 2:02:46 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And I will ask again, why do you need a semi assault rifle? Why would anyone need a magazine that allowed someone to shoot off hundreds of rounds within 8 short minutes?

Btw, the victims were found in 2 rooms. So, yeah, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Assault rifles are full auto not semi.
Magazines do not hold hundreds of rounds only belt fed macnine guns do
Hundreds of rounds in that time would virtually melt the barrell of a bushmaster
You have every right to your view but pleasecheck your facts

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 277

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 2:14:10 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Inghammar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Inghammar

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawotk

Gun control, my balls. If any one of the adults would have had a fucking gun, for chrissakes, at that or any other incident like it... At least the people would have had a damned chance. Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2YC5cVxTcQ

two weeks after pearl ms ( where the vice principal ran to hi scar and got a gun to stop the shooting ) a nut started shooting people in the parking lot of the senior prom in sububan Philly a man driving by in his pickup pointed out to the shooter that 9mm vs 12 ga is not fun and held him for police just after colembine a punk went on a shooting spree at a strip mall fortunatly his first stop was a indoor shooting range were the reseptionist shot him last year a gunman attacked a chuch in Colo and was stoped by a woman in the foyer who killed him you don't know about them because the media doesn't play them up, low or no body count
One did. She owned several, in fact. Her son used them to kill her, her colleagues, and 20 children.

Way to argue the point. Sheesh.

What is there to argue? I cannot think of one incident in which an armed bystander stopped a massacre. I don't care about your guns - but don't proffer the Dirty Harry fantasy of staring down the sights of a .38 at a burglar with one leg over a window sill and your VCR in his arms. When you own a gun, it's much more likely to harm you or the ones your love than an aggressor.

(in reply to Inghammar)

Post #: 278

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 2:16:47 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You seem to have missed the point. This man did not use an assault rifle. He used two pistols. Cho Seung-Hui used a Glock 9mm and a 22 at Virginia tech and killed 33 people. The Columbine shooters used a 9mm pistol, a 9mm rifle and two shotguns.

This one used a Glock and a Sig Sauer

quote:

All the weapons were legally purchased but one in all three incidents.

I never claimed otherwise.

quote:

As far as your "hundreds of rounds" statement, the authorities have not released the information on how many rounds were fired. And as I tried to point out, it was not a high rate of fire that was used here.

That was the report from someone inside the building.

quote:

Most of the victims at Virginia Tech were killed over a 10 to 15 minute period, and in this case, he had MULTIPLE 10 and 15 round magazines.

In the shooting in Arizona where Congresswoman Giffords was shot, he used one 9mm handgun and a MODIFIED magazine to hold a high number of rounds.

First, Im not sure why you are doing all the CAPPING. Its distracting to read.

Second, why would anyone require more than 10 round magazines?

Third, how easy is it to modify a magazine?

all of the shooters mentioned were under 21 an thus it was a violation of federal law for them to own a handgun

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 279

RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/17/2012 2:19:47 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

40% percent of gun sales do NOT have background checks....... funny-man.

Again....until the NRA fucktard narratives are pushed out of the discussion.......we won`t have an honest discussion.

I know you NRA types think it`s settled......that the 2nd Amendment says anyone can have any gun anywhere......but it doesn`t and it isn`t.

Even the 2nd Amendment can be amended.....I only pray that as few precious children as possible are lost in the long,ugly process.

Do you have a link to back up that claim or is it like the millions in Michigan bullshit again?

Its based upon the background checks not being required for private gun sales.

It claims to tell us how many times something of which there is no record happenes there it is nothing but a wag (wild a!! guess)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 280

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