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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 12:25:03 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

40 x 4 = 160... I dont know what you are talking about.

Mind explaining?

40 rounds in 2 minutes (one revolver in each hand) 4 2 minute periods = 160 rounds
forget the pistols 28 rounds a minute x * minutes = 224 rounds almost 10 rounds per victim



I have a 1851 colt replica, it is a bit tedious to load. How do your propose to load powder, wad, ball in six chambers and then put percussion caps on the cylinder and get 28 rounds out in two minutes?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 321
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 12:36:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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Everyone keeps talking about how fast they can be.

Why arent we talking about how fast a 20 year old with signs of Asperger might be, in a situation that I doubt was very calm for him?

The experts can do lots of things this man/kid couldnt possibly do.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 12:49:28 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

40 x 4 = 160... I dont know what you are talking about.

Mind explaining?

40 rounds in 2 minutes (one revolver in each hand) 4 2 minute periods = 160 rounds
forget the pistols 28 rounds a minute x * minutes = 224 rounds almost 10 rounds per victim



I have a 1851 colt replica, it is a bit tedious to load. How do your propose to load powder, wad, ball in six chambers and then put percussion caps on the cylinder and get 28 rounds out in two minutes?

extra cylinders just like they did then
the 28 was her figure for the per minute rate of fire for the 1866

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/18/2012 12:52:05 AM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 1:12:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Winchester rate of fire

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=364

Colt 1851 rate of fire

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=490

The Colt wouldnt work for a reload... so you would have 12 shots there. 2 minutes.

toss hand guns.. now useless.... 28 shots for the Winchester... but it holds only 15 rounds, so you are reloading a lot to get that many shots off.

Bushmaster semiautomatic.... rate of fire 45 per minute. Depending on the size of the magazine, 10 - 20... he is still getting off more shots than you.

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/manual_bushmaster.pdf

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 324
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 1:17:50 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Winchester rate of fire

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=364

Colt 1851 rate of fire

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=490

The Colt wouldnt work for a reload... so you would have 12 shots there. 2 minutes.

toss hand guns.. now useless.... 28 shots for the Winchester... but it holds only 15 rounds, so you are reloading a lot to get that many shots off.

Bushmaster semiautomatic.... rate of fire 45 per minute. Depending on the size of the magazine, 10 - 20... he is still getting off more shots than you.

http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/manual_bushmaster.pdf

never said rate of fire would be the same I said he could do the same damage. I was using your numbers and with extra cylinders as was ogten used with the colts reloading becomes more workable. You haveto realize that many were shot multiple times with the lever action he wouldn't waste as many ( I suspect that some of the multiple wounds will turn out to be shots that went through one victim into another.)

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/18/2012 1:22:21 AM >

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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 1:22:02 AM   
tazzygirl


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12 shots in 2 minutes... pistols spent.. tossed

move to rifle... 15 shots.. reload.. 15 shots.. reload.. 15 shots.. reload.... this isnt a magazine.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 1:24:14 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

12 shots in 2 minutes... pistols spent.. tossed

move to rifle... 15 shots.. reload.. 15 shots.. reload.. 15 shots.. reload.... this isnt a magazine.

having been a shooter for over 50 years I am well aware that this isnt a magazine. I also know that with a lever action your gun never needs to be empty

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 3:44:00 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The 1994 ban on assault rifles would still have stopped people owning the gun used.


Assault weapons, not assault rifles; there's a difference.

The gun used is actually legal in Norway, as noted.

No school shootings so far (fingers crossed).

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Yet the link I added shows otherwise regards the gun in question.

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Profile   Post #: 328
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 3:46:33 AM   
epiphiny43


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Aspergers is more a social disability. Many diagnosed as such have superb concentration and technical abilities in narrow fields. They are often recruited for particular exacting lab and manufacturing work.
Pistols don't become useless except for single round sideloaders like the original colt. All current revolvers swing out for speed loaders to dump 6 shells and take 6 full rounds in a couple of seconds. Fast as if not faster than the previous system of swapping cylinders. No real disadvantage in a tactical situation against clip loading if there is any cover. Either gun loads faster than most can close the distance between antagonists or achieve a flanking position. Against unarmed and trapped people, none of that matters. And far too many victims are paralyzed by fear or indecision.
Pre-semiauto British infantry were trained to 20 rounds a minute of aimed fire loading from 5 round stripper clips, with a bolt action of no particular merit except reliability.
The weapon isn't the real determinant of lethality, it's the determination and preparation of the killer. More children might have died if someone familiar with long sword of several types was in the school. The lack of any surviving children suggests multiple hits or very close distances. The mother is said to have taken multiple shots as well. This may mean the shooter had other agenda than total number and his emotional involvement in each murder saved a lot of other lives. The Norway attack, intended as a political statement, was 69 dead, 55 seriously wounded, in open ground?
All this brings to mind the Israeli airport attack, where a couple of people were hit, and the attackers were all dropped by immediate return fire from the many off-duty and reserve force 'civilians'. One shocked attacker was quite incensed that the people they came to kill were armed, and better shots. His trainers hadn't bothered to inform him? As a editorial quoted in these discussions noted, 'gun free' school zones equate to free fire zones for attackers.
Gun control laws make the assumption for their existence that they will be perfectly effective. No law has ever been totally effective. What the type of control I'm reading about does is ensure an unarmed group of victims for whatever some crazy or political provocateur happens to target. The discussion on this page of firing rates from even obsolete weapons is clear enough that in any measurable response time, effective help won't arrive before the body count is unacceptable.
The problem with armed security people is that they are simply the first casualty if surprise can be attained. We are far from the warrior cultures where everyone is a fighter and the closest person, man, woman or child, picks up any weapon dropped by a casualty and attacks. The accounts so far suggest that the school principle Was a warrior? And it seems Americans on airliners are now more warriors than elsewhere?

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 4:31:14 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Just out of curiosity, could that be because your system treats mental illness instead of pretending it doesnt exist?


I wish.

Compared to Sweden, we're in the stone age on this point.

Compared to the USA, we do exceedingly well, of course, plus people actually have something to lose here, but the USA isn't exactly the gold standard of a functioning society, after all.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 4:36:32 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Thank you, tazzy.

I admit I was wrong.


I just have to quote this for the following purpose:



Some recognition is due for such an admission.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 4:43:01 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yet the link I added shows otherwise regards the gun in question.


I checked with two gun shops. They're willing to sell me the gun in question.

Over the counter. Registered. Legal. It's in stock.

The article dealt with the AWB.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 332
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 5:07:47 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
2000 people a year die by privately owned and legal guns of all types and calibers.

30000 men, women and children die each year by illegal guns in the hands of gang members.

Save 2000 and ignore the others because the majority if them live in poor neighborhoods where drive by shootings are the norm.

You come up with a way to effectively and realistically get rid of every illegal gun in this country and keep more from getting in, then we can talk.

Why does it have to be every illegal gun? Why is mitigation (you know that thing we do for everything else) off the table?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Until then, more people are gonna die with illegal guns and a fucking hell of a lot of them are going to be kids.

Isn't that what happens now?

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 5:24:25 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
2000 people a year die by privately owned and legal guns of all types and calibers.

30000 men, women and children die each year by illegal guns in the hands of gang members.

Save 2000 and ignore the others because the majority if them live in poor neighborhoods where drive by shootings are the norm.

You come up with a way to effectively and realistically get rid of every illegal gun in this country and keep more from getting in, then we can talk.

Why does it have to be every illegal gun? Why is mitigation (you know that thing we do for everything else) off the table?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Until then, more people are gonna die with illegal guns and a fucking hell of a lot of them are going to be kids.

Isn't that what happens now?



yep that is what happens now.

The problem is that the anti gun, or gun restrictions groups dont seem to grasp the difference in numbers

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 5:58:34 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Everybody seems to be arguing about how fast and how many of which type of gun can fire what.

Who gives a shit about all that?
All the gun-toting NRA supporters always quote the 2nd and spout how many illegal weapons couldn't be stopped coming into the country and that severe gun restrictions don't work, blah, blah, blah.

But as Obama stated in his Sunday evening speech in Newtown, "we can't stop all the killings with new laws but that is no reason for inaction".


Well, here is simple concrete proof that gun restrictions DO work that I think even jlf can comprehend -

The UK drastically repealed it's gun ownership laws and the number of gun-related mass killings and crimes plummeted.
The same thing happened in Autralia.

Headline: In 1996, Australia enacted gun control measures. There have been no mass shootings since.
The worse mass murder in Australian history happened on April 28, 1996, when a gunman killed 35 and wounded 23 in a Tasmanian seaside resort.
The conservative Prime Minister John Howard responded with gun control legislation and a mass buyback of about one-fifth of all the firearms in circulation in Australia.
As The Washington Post points out, it worked: "Howard cites a study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 per cent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 per cent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides."
In the wake of the Aurora shootings, Howard visited America and, on his return, remained convinced of the efficacy of gun control. He wrote a comment piece for Australian newspaper The Age titled "Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns".

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/iv-drip/in-1996-australia-enacted-gun-control-measures-there-have-been-no-mass-shootings-since-8421740.html
Original source: http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

In the 18 years leading up to the change in gun laws, Australia had 13 gun-related mass killings.
In the 16 years since the gun control legislation was introduced, the number of gun-related mass killings is 0.
Source: BBC news last night.


Yes, you did read it right, it's not a typo, since gun law reform in Australia the number of mass killings is ZERO!!
Zero, nada, zilch, none. Not a single mass killing since they introduced severe gun ownership.

Do I need to spell it out again so the information sinks in??
After a 1996 Mass Shooting, Australia Enacted Strict Gun Laws. It Hasn't Had a Similar Massacre Since.

The original source goes on to say -
Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.
The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.)
Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes.


In just 12 days, the Aussies had their gun laws radically changed and it worked.
And, just like the UK, there was no referendum on it, no public vote, no consultation; they just did it.
Yet the US asshats just can't get their shit together and do something similar.

And before anyone starts spouting about illegal guns killing people etc, Australia and the UK have just the same problems with arms smuggling as the USA does.
The only difference is the gun ownership laws.



jlf: Can you come up with a resonable, coherent, logical argument that counters these facts and that the US shouldn't have strict gun law reforms?
Other than the 2nd, which both the UK and Australia had an equivalent and just swept them aside to make new laws.

Can you now tell me and the countless millions in favour of gun law reform that it does not work?
I have shown two countries that had radical gun law reforms and it worked.
If you honestly don't think it works, provide proof and legitimate sources.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 335
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 6:07:37 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
2000 people a year die by privately owned and legal guns of all types and calibers.

30000 men, women and children die each year by illegal guns in the hands of gang members.

Save 2000 and ignore the others because the majority if them live in poor neighborhoods where drive by shootings are the norm.

You come up with a way to effectively and realistically get rid of every illegal gun in this country and keep more from getting in, then we can talk.

Why does it have to be every illegal gun? Why is mitigation (you know that thing we do for everything else) off the table?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Until then, more people are gonna die with illegal guns and a fucking hell of a lot of them are going to be kids.

Isn't that what happens now?

yep that is what happens now.

The problem is that the anti gun, or gun restrictions groups dont seem to grasp the difference in numbers

It's often best to listen to the stated positions and motivations of groups you disagree with instead of making up their motivations and positions. Inventing the other guys argument has a noticeable tendency to inhibit ones ability to understand where the other side is coming from and certainly inhibits ones ability to be taken seriously by the other side in a discussion.

The argument as I've heard it from the anti gun crowd is that reducing the number of legal guns would diminish the number of illegal guns. I can certainly understand some skepticism about how effective we would be at implementing such a plan but why the ridiculously unrealistic demand for 100% effectiveness? I don't get why mitigation is off the table?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 12/18/2012 6:10:12 AM >

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RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 7:24:29 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Everybody seems to be arguing about how fast and how many of which type of gun can fire what.


Appearances can be deceiving. There's been 334 posts before yours in this thread, and only a fraction have been about that. Try following the narrative.

quote:

But as Obama stated in his Sunday evening speech in Newtown, "we can't stop all the killings with new laws but that is no reason for inaction".


There's no reason for inaction. Newton tells us, inaction is the default, until poked; that's inertia.

The question is whether there's reason for action, and what that action should be.

A question that depends on what the people want, among other things.

quote:

The UK drastically repealed it's gun ownership laws and the number of gun-related mass killings and crimes plummeted. The same thing happened in Autralia.


Good results, but way to overreact by those two islands.

quote:

Do I need to spell it out again so the information sinks in??


No, it actually sinks in easier if you don't. That thing I keep saying about opposing/supporting views vocally.

Amputating a leg with a severe infection is extremely effective in saving the patient.

When antibiotics will do, though, it seems a bit harsh.

That's why docs try that first.

quote:

The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.)


Yeah, we have the same thing here. That's why we pay Hell's Angels to handle self defense, instead.

What's a genuine reason to engage in breathplay down under, by the way?

I assume consent doesn't count, just like here.

quote:

And, just like the UK, there was no referendum on it, no public vote, no consultation; they just did it.


No democracy, no freedom, no respect, they just had their way with people.

If I do that, it's called something else, even if she's consented up front.

quote:

Yet the US asshats just can't get their shit together and do something similar.


That's the reason I think there may still be hope for humanity, perhaps even for the USA itself.

quote:

And before anyone starts spouting about illegal guns killing people etc, Australia and the UK have just the same problems with arms smuggling as the USA does.


What land bridges are used in Australia?

Just curious.

quote:

Other than the 2nd, which both the UK and Australia had an equivalent and just swept them aside to make new laws.


Yeah, which is part of why I struck both off my list of potential places to move, and why gun owners don't want to compromise.

It's not the decision I mind. It's how they did it. Plain and simple.

That was worse than Connecticut, IMO.

quote:

Can you now tell me and the countless millions in favour of gun law reform that it does not work?


Auswitz worked quite well. Doesn't mean it was a good idea.

You'll note storage requirements, magazine capacity limits and buyback programs are a much better idea, and one that works with consent of the governed and the affected.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 8:20:27 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Sometimes, like the recent decades of discussions in the US, the two sides just don't agree and in the end inaction is the result.

That's the history behind both the UK and Australian gun reforms.
Both sides couldn't agree - so a stalemate ensued, just like in the US. And it remained that way for decades.
It took a brave politician to bash their heads together and declare that the talks were over and it was time for action.

So that's what they did.
It might have been undemocratic but there again, many major decisions are made without a public vote or consultation.
And seeing as the pro and anti gun groups couldn't agree for decades, someone took the bull by the horns.
Sometimes, you just need to do something.

I don't agree with your analagy about Auswitz.
Plus the fact it wasn't actually that effective given the overall plan.

And I don't get the comment about land bridges either.
By that reckoning, you are implying that the land bridges (ie, Mexico) are responsible for the illegal import of weapons into the US that has no correlation with countries such as the UK or Australia because they are "islands".
I concede that the UK is an island, but Australia is a continent like the US, albeit still classified as the world's biggest 'island'.
And by size comparison, is only slightly smaller than the US.
Source: http://www.ga.gov.au/education/geoscience-basics/dimensions/australias-size-compared.html

Have a look at this -
http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Files.View&FileStore_id=beaff893-63c1-4941-9903-67a0dc739b9d
It clearly states that "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has consistently found that the overwhelming majority of firearms recovered at crime scenes and traced by Mexican officials originate in the United States".
And further down, it also states "Finding: Military-style weapons are readily available for civilian purchase in the United States. Many of these are imported from former Eastern bloc countries and then can be bought by straw purchasers and transported to Mexico..."

So that seems to contradict your theory of the US land bridge with Mexico being a major source of illegal weapons in the US.
On the contrary, it appears that a fair number of illegally imported arms are being exported from the US into Mexico and not vice-versa.
I guess you could surmise that there are a reasonable number of 'trades' of weapons for drugs, but that isn't the issue under discussion here.
So, the main source of illegal weapons would be coming from imports overseas and that is exactly the scenario for the UK and Australia, so a like-for-like comparison is quite legitimate.




(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 8:52:07 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sometimes, like the recent decades of discussions in the US, the two sides just don't agree and in the end inaction is the result.


The reason they don't agree is that they're not discussing, just shouting at each other, for the most part.

quote:

It took a brave politician to bash their heads together and declare that the talks were over and it was time for action.


Correction, it took an asshole deciding that when Alice, Bob and Charlie are unwilling to compromise, Alice gets to carry the day entirely, while Bob and Charlie have to suck it up, rather than bothering to understand their views and find the compromise the two of them should be looking for in the first place, the one both can live with.

quote:

Sometimes, you just need to do something.


And then someone else gets to fix it, because you were too busy doing something to do the right thing.

quote:

I don't agree with your analagy about Auswitz.


What part don't you agree with?

quote:

Plus the fact it wasn't actually that effective given the overall plan.


The overall plan was to kill the Jews more efficiently by streamlining the process.

In that regard, they did well, and were only exceeded by the Aztecs (who only did it for a few days).

quote:

And I don't get the comment about land bridges either.


There are places around the US, with land bridges, that have a ton of guns and a vested interest in smuggling if the market for it exists. The UK and Australia both lack any adjacent territory whence such smuggling could take place. Norway has a coastline and a land bridge, so we see smuggling via both routes, but mostly via land, because that's much easier to do, and the East bloc countries are quite happy to serve the limited market for illegal weapons here.

quote:

And by size comparison, is only slightly smaller than the US.


I do have an accurate globe.

quote:

It clearly states that "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has consistently found that the overwhelming majority of firearms recovered at crime scenes and traced by Mexican officials originate in the United States".


Of course. Currently, that's what the market favors. You produce, you sell, they buy, they use. Mexico has 15 guns per capita, according to WP, and I figure that's probably a low estimate. If the market favors it, those guns will be sold back to the USA, and if the market is hungry enough, the cartels will start importing or producing in order to meet that demand.

It'll still reduce killings, though. Just so we're clear on what I'm contesting, and what I'm not.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: Gun Control and mass murder, one does not eliminate... - 12/18/2012 9:40:35 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

And, just like the UK, there was no referendum on it, no public vote, no consultation; they just did it.



No democracy, no freedom, no respect, they just had their way with people.

If I do that, it's called something else, even if she's consented up front.



There's no necessary connection between gun ownership and freedom, Aswad. The 2nd Amendment just kicked off years and years of relentlessly-pumped marketing that *said* there must be a connection, that's all. A splendidly effective piece of indoctrination, in sum.

BTW, the UK government 'had its way' with our population after the Dunblane incident re gun-banning in the same way that it ran roughshod over us on changing the rules regarding the shape of paving stones that we all walk over on our street kerbs. That is - very few people cared about the change. Baffling as it is to many Americans, we just don't give much of a toss about guns here. We certainly don't all believe that we are as caged slaves with gnat-like penises because we don't have guns.

ETA - a humorous wink. Because I'm that kind of guy.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/18/2012 9:47:39 AM >


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(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 340
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