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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:54:45 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Can you not see the disconnects in your post here LP,we can not guarantee complete safety so we shouldn't try to limit the mayhem ?
Really ?
Less people die today,per mile driven,then they did in the 50's
Do you know why...because we,as a country,decided that we could enact some reasonable laws and regulations.
Children ages 5 thru 14 in America are 13 times more likely to be murdered by guns as children in other industrialized countries.
Thats according to David Hemenway ,a public health specialst at Harvard
Now should we do something about that,should we attempt to cut down these incidences,while understanding that we will never fully eliminate them.
Or should we just shrug our shoulders and say there's really nothing we can do ?
Blood on our hands.
Seat belts,higher crash safety standards,tougher drunk driving laws,air bags and child safety seats.
All of the above are today considered common sense fully reasonable steps.
Some of us just might be alive today due to these steps.


How many of us just might be dead in the future should we fail to take reasonable action now ?

please read Kristof's column in the op-ed section of the Times...I stole a good portion of this post from him.
I didn't say any of that, so please don't jump to conclusions. You seem to be missing the fact that I said to work for what you believe in. I also happen to be saying that I don't buy the "all guns are evil" rhetoric.

From your own example above, when somebody gets busted for a DUI, we don't stop using cars. We don't pull the license of the guy who lives across the street from the offender. We put the blame where it belongs. With the guy who actually broke the law. You may or may not be able to also find fault with the bartender who served the guy and watched him leave for the night with his keys knowing the driver is about to break the law, but so far, I've seen that fail repeatedly because the responsibility falls on the wrong person. If somebody steals your car and crashes it into a van full of people, we don't blame you for owning the car to begin with or tell you that you can't own another one. We blame the guy who committed the crime.

I'll be thrilled when somebody finds a way to get guns out of the hands of criminals. That's who is taking the lives of children. Just like the drunks who are not permitted to drive while sober people are permitted to be on the roads. Reasonably, wouldn't that be the area where your efforts would do the most good?



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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:55:08 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

seems we have a mr gommert dribbler in here ...oh yay

A Republican Congressman suggested that had the teachers at Sandy Hook Elementary been armed with assault rifles, they could have prevented Friday’s massacre and saved lives.
Appearing on a special Fox News Sunday dedicated to the tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) said that an armed teacher or principal could have taken the killer’s “head off before he can kill those precious kids”:

GOHMERT: Having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect, Chris, I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids. [...]


Pressed by host Chris Wallace on why ordinary citizens need semi automatic weapons that shoot 5 bullets per second, Gohmert said that any restrictions on fire arms could lead to the slippery slope of full prohibition and said that American amass weapons to protect themselves from the government.

“For the reason George Washington said a free people should be an armed people,” Gohmert explained. “It ensures against the tyranny of the government, if they know the biggest army is the American people, then you don’t have the tyranny that came from king george. that is why it was put in there and that’s why once you start drawing the line, where do you stop?”



It appears Gohmert understands his personal responsibility towards the defense of our constitutional sovereignty as defined by the framers of our constitution. I'm not sure what all this nonsense about the teacher having an assault rifle at school is about but I haven't seen the piece. My only issue in this thread is that you cannot legislate safety or intellect. If you could we wouldn't be discussing this subject now.

By the way, I do like this Av....

IS funny tho Bull, I think I have a different definition of tyranny than Gohmert,and of many who believe the government should NOT do anything about the levels of gun induced murder.
No body else will, the populace certainly wont, the NRA wont, the Lobbyists and manufacturers wont.
Many of the gun owners who have opined about the massacre are wont to ignore the weapons issue completely and blame it on anything but.
Many people in the world are mentally "unstable" many have been given the same access to video games, violent movies, poverty socialism, medication, rap, you name it, yet without ease of access to guns, the gun deaths are so much reduced, to ignore that fact is simply to ignore a truth.
Americans murdering Americans.... every country has mad murderous violent bastards.
few have the availability of guns for a reason, something so many in the US are not conscious of in their poor claims to avert government "tyranny".
What a freedom you enjoy!




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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:56:49 AM   
TheHeretic


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Well of course, TJ. I've provided the briefest thumbnail sketch of the story, so naturally your thoughts on the motivations and chain of events are going to be completely valid and accurate...

He told the cops he ran, because he saw the old woman coming out of the house with a shotgun. In a society with legal gun ownership, he understood it was completely reasonable to expect a resident to be so armed.

Oh. FYI. I do have a "Granny," in my family. Did anyway. She's dead now, and nobody misses her. Completely different person.



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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:57:30 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well of course, TJ. I've provided the briefest thumbnail sketch of the story, so naturally your thoughts on the motivations and chain of events are going to be completely valid and accurate...

He told the cops he ran, because he saw the old woman coming out of the house with a shotgun. In a society with legal gun ownership, he understood it was completely reasonable to expect a resident to be so armed.

Oh. FYI. I do have a "Granny," in my family. Did anyway. She's dead now, and nobody misses her. Completely different person.

Yeah, and its created a totally parnoid society.. I dont think that is a good thing..
Your 2nd ammendment right for everyone to own guns has people, especially cops & armed security guards, etc, thinking everyone has one.. which is why so many people get shot carrying their cell phones.. they see someone with someone with something in their hand, and automatically think its a gun.. and bang.. hes shot and nope, its just a cell phone..


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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:57:35 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx



Yeah, Morgan Freeman said that. Huh, another option perhaps?


NO he didnt, its a hoax

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Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:58:55 AM   
cordeliasub


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quote:

My mother collects music boxes. My sister collects antique radios and phonographs. What they want to spend their money on is their business as long as it isn't illegal.

But, oh my God!...if someone chooses firearms as their "thing" to LEGALLY collect there must be something wrong with them.


You do make a good point, actually. I know a couple of people who consider themselves gun collectors. Their collections are securely stored in very expensive locked cases with bulletproof glass. I was thinking of the people who have guns in toolboxes and plastic tubs in their basement in case they need to go all anarchist one day. Sadly, I know a few of those too.

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 6:59:30 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

seems we have a mr gommert dribbler in here ...oh yay

A Republican Congressman suggested that had the teachers at Sandy Hook Elementary been armed with assault rifles, they could have prevented Friday’s massacre and saved lives.
Appearing on a special Fox News Sunday dedicated to the tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) said that an armed teacher or principal could have taken the killer’s “head off before he can kill those precious kids”:

GOHMERT: Having been a judge and reviewed photographs of these horrific scenes and knowing that children have these defensive wounds, gun shots through their arms and hands as they try to protect themselves, and, hearing the heroic stories of the principal, lunging, trying to protect, Chris, I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids. [...]


Pressed by host Chris Wallace on why ordinary citizens need semi automatic weapons that shoot 5 bullets per second, Gohmert said that any restrictions on fire arms could lead to the slippery slope of full prohibition and said that American amass weapons to protect themselves from the government.

“For the reason George Washington said a free people should be an armed people,” Gohmert explained. “It ensures against the tyranny of the government, if they know the biggest army is the American people, then you don’t have the tyranny that came from king george. that is why it was put in there and that’s why once you start drawing the line, where do you stop?”



It appears Gohmert understands his personal responsibility towards the defense of our constitutional sovereignty as defined by the framers of our constitution. I'm not sure what all this nonsense about the teacher having an assault rifle at school is about but I haven't seen the piece. My only issue in this thread is that you cannot legislate safety or intellect. If you could we wouldn't be discussing this subject now.

By the way, I do like this Av....

IS funny tho Bull, I think I have a different definition of tyranny than Gohmert,and of many who believe the government should NOT do anything about the levels of gun induced murder.
No body else will, the populace certainly wont, the NRA wont, the Lobbyists and manufacturers wont.
Many of the gun owners who have opined about the massacre are wont to ignore the weapons issue completely and blame it on anything but.
Many people in the world are mentally "unstable" many have been given the same access to video games, violent movies, poverty socialism, medication, rap, you name it, yet without ease of access to guns, the gun deaths are so much reduced, to ignore that fact is simply to ignore a truth.
Americans murdering Americans.... every country has mad murderous violent bastards.
few have the availability of guns for a reason, something so many in the US are not conscious of in their poor claims to avert government "tyranny".
What a freedom you enjoy!





Actually I take the responsibility of my weapons very seriously. When I first returned home from the service to begin my civilian career a small boy was shot and killed by his own brother not a block from my home, by a gun cleaning accident. I'll never forget the picture of this young boy, which by the way was named after a very dear friend of mine that we lost due to cancer, as they loaded him aboard the Life Flight Chopper. He was nearly blown in half, the blood dripping from the gurney wasn't red but nearly clear, a light pink.

No parents were home and I assure you that there father is a very responsible and caring man, but he, in my opinion left to much responsibility in the hands of those not yet ready to assume it. Hind sight being twenty-twenty I don’t know if I would have done any different with my own weapons at that time. My boys were small and didn’t even know their dad had a gun. But, I do now take a very conscience effort to manage my weapon responsibilities. In fact I even before this latest tragedy have been renovating and am installing a very adequate gun safe, not just a locked case, but rather a safe.

To add to that, I have been considering a permanent room type safe hid completely away from view in order to secure my more constitutionally obligated weapons and munitions.

I know that I am but only one man, an imperfect one at that and that more of us should take their responsibilities to such extremes, so I agree that we should discuss this very issue in much greater detail. I do know that many of my friends feel and conduct themselves much the same as I do at this point. Hell when I was a kid we’d have rifles and shotguns in the back windows of our pick-ups and never even troubled ourselves with locking the doors. I’m not even sure they sell gun racks for rear windows anymore.


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 7:00:31 AM   
Lucylastic


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you dont threaten to take out a school with a music box collection
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/16/1342881/indiana-man-arrested-after-threatening-to-shoot-up-elementary-school/

A man equipped with a 47 gun arsenal was arrested on Sunday after threatening to kill children at a local elementary school. The Cedar Lake, Indiana man had also threatened his wife:
Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and “kill as many people as he could.” Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.
This incident comes right on the heels of the arrest of an Oklahoma man planning a school shooting and the horrific murders in Newtown, Connecticut. Though America has suffered a spate of mass shootings and common sense gun regulations effectively reduce murder rates, several Republicans and gun advocates have responded to Friday’s tragedy by calling for relaxing restrictions on guns in schools.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 7:00:35 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx



Yeah, Morgan Freeman said that. Huh, another option perhaps?


NO he didnt, its a hoax


Well shit... Here’s a typical reason I hate trying to quote someone else.

It did seem a bit out there and overly opinionated for a man that typically chooses his words very carefully. He is quite possibly my favorite actor.

None the less, this point does seem an option worthy of discussion.


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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 7:00:36 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
it is worth considering that many of our newest members of society come from cultures much different than our own.

From gene pools much different - having a far higher frequency of barbarism alleles - from that of your own population.


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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 7:02:25 AM   
Lucylastic


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you dont threaten to take out a school with a music box collection
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/16/1342881/indiana-man-arrested-after-threatening-to-shoot-up-elementary-school/

A man equipped with a 47 gun arsenal was arrested on Sunday after threatening to kill children at a local elementary school. The Cedar Lake, Indiana man had also threatened his wife:
Cedar Lake police were called to the home of 60-year-old Von I. Meyer early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire. A police statement says Meyer also said he would enter Jane Ball Elementary School and “kill as many people as he could.” Authorities found 47 guns and ammunition worth over $100,000.
This incident comes right on the heels of the arrest of an Oklahoma man planning a school shooting and the horrific murders in Newtown, Connecticut. Though America has suffered a spate of mass shootings and common sense gun regulations effectively reduce murder rates, several Republicans and gun advocates have responded to Friday’s tragedy by calling for relaxing restrictions on guns in schools.

edited to add, dammit this has posted twice... Im getting this error message ... Microsoft OLE DB Provider for SQL Server error '80040e31'

Timeout expired

/tt.asp, line 310




my bad..

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 7:02:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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I had to switch browers. Dont know whats up.

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:32:49 AM   
Rule


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I have been having trouble accessing the subforums all day. I use the Chrome browser. I already reported the problem to Tech Support.

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:36:07 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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I think that part of the problem with these discussions is that for the most part, we are arguing the pros and cons of gun ownership with fairly sensible and level-headed responsible gun owners.

Given their own circumstances and outlook on gun ownership, if everyone were like them, we wouldn't have the problems of Friday as Adam wouldn't have managed to get hold of a gun so easily to wreak such havoc.


The problem is with the other umpteen percent of people who are not as careful or as vigilant with their weapons.
Whenever we get a Friday incident, everyone throws their hands up in horror - even the pro-gun people who constantly argue they are trying to reduce such events.
And therein lies the catch-22 problem.
The pro-gun lobbyists won't budge on restrictions because they say its a sacrilige to their rights under the 2nd.
Those that don't have guns or want much better sanctions and restrictions on guns say the 2nd can be changed or even abolished.
And never the twain shall meet because both sides cannot or will not budge from their entrenchments and ideals.

So unless a president forces the issue, the status quo will remain and nothing will ever be done and these 'Fridays' will happen time and time again.

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:36:59 AM   
Just0Plain0Mike


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Though America has suffered a spate of mass shootings and common sense gun regulations effectively reduce murder rates, several Republicans and gun advocates have responded to Friday’s tragedy by calling for relaxing restrictions on guns in schools.



Personally I think it's not a bad idea. Perhaps the reason these psycho cowards are choosing to target schools is that children are helpless targets, and they know they'll be the only ones there with guns. They can walk in and stand there shooting with impunity, knowing that no one will be shooting back.

Whether people like it or not, sometimes a gun can end a fight just by it's presence. I've had two times where I was almost mugged/carjacked. Both times I showed that I was armed, didn't draw it, didn't need to shoot anyone, just let it be known I was armed and ready to defend myself. That ended the incident and everyone walked away fine.

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:37:34 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:42:43 AM   
cordeliasub


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This may sound jaded, but as a teacher I can tell you that having guns IN the school would make me feel LESS safe, especially in a middle school junior high school, or high school. The sad fact is that there are just as many troubled people INSIDE the walls of a school as there are outside.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:43:35 AM   
kdsub


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Mike I don’t blame you for your stance…at times I feel the same way and just as passionate. But after I cool down and think about it I come to a different conclusion.

We, as a species, have managed to kill before today’s tools of death…We killed with sticks…we killed with stones…and knives…and swords...and now with guns…and tomorrow it will be something else. Taking any one tool or all away will not even put a dent in our killing. We will just figure new ways to kill.

Rather than spend the money and time it would take, if possible, to confiscate all the guns in this country… why not spend those resources in mental health care? It still would not stop the killing but I believe it would slow it down.

We still have much progress to make as a species before we are safe from ourselves…if ever . All we can do is keep searching for answers to the …why is there evil in us… and do our best to evolve for the good.

Butch

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:43:45 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse


If 'most of those guns' are stolen, where are they stolen from? What responsible (cough) gun owner that originally purchased them legally, allowed them to be stolen?


You are aware that items get stolen from people everyday who don't "allow" it? My dad had collected guns most of his adult life, mostly rifles and some smaller, unusual guns. While he was lying in a hospital with cancer of the esophagus and my mother was staying by his side, their home was burglarized and his gun collection was wiped out. Now his home and his gun cabinets were locked but that didn't deter the determined thieves. Shame on him for "allowing" that. Get a grip.

luci

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RE: Simply an opinion. - 12/16/2012 11:45:20 AM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

you dont threaten to take out a school with a music box collection


You might turn them all on at once and drive everyone crazy!

The point is, a person...any person...has the right to collect things that are legal to own. And just because a person has 2, or 20, or 200 firearms, he (or she) can only fire one, or maybe two at a time. So what does it matter if they have more than that? Does that make them any more "crazy" than someone that collects music boxes? Or cars? Or dead insects? Of course not.

But then, I think you know that and you are just arguing for the sake of argument.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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