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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:05:50 AM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I agree, Mari. Every so often, especially when I'm in a pithy smartass sort of mode, or playing in the section I still think of as Random Stupidy, I'll get a little pop-up that tells me I cannot post two messages in such a short time. Why not something similiar for forum posting? Or, why not a thread starting form of moderation, that would still allow posters to fully participate in the discussion, but require new threads to be ok'd first, when a poster wants to illustrate what a fucking asshat they are?

Several threads on aspects of gun control would be good. Even when I was trying to tell a certain individual to knock it off, before exactly this happened, I was saying we couldn't do this subject on one. Gun control is probably the biggest subject of political discussion in the US right now. It should be fair game, and individual aspects should not be buried and lost, as they will be here.

Despite the fact you are "a Conservative", I adore you.
Maybe in 2013, I/we can help lead you to the light.

< Message edited by Marini -- 12/22/2012 11:12:37 AM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 181

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:17:20 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Okay, I admit I went overboard on the gun control threads.

On a related note, I think the next gun I am going to buy is a Barrett M107A1 .50 BMG 29"

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 182

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:18:20 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Don't ever stop chasing rainbows, Mari.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 183

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:20:41 AM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, I admit I went overboard on the gun control threads.

On a related note, I think the next gun I am going to buy is a Barrett M107A1 .50 BMG 29"

Thank you for admitting you went overboard.

Maybe if we all beg, Alpha will let us start gun control threads.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 184

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 12:08:06 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Both the UK and Australian constition allowed

There is a critical difference. In those countries, rights are given to the people by the government, while in the US, powers are denied to the government by the people.

Is that how you view the 2nd Amendment??

I find that a rather strange stance to adopt considering the laws on gun control (or lack of) nearly two centuries ago were drawn up in pretty much the same way.
The lawmakers make the law, it gets approval in whatever passes for a governmental body of the day, and it becomes "law".
The idea being, that if that law proves to destructive, derisory or otherwise non-constructive, the 'people' have the voting power to elect a different government offering to change said defunct law(s).

The difference being, there are some real strange people (notably the asshat NRA) in the US that have used their wealth to rule the government which was never really allowed to prolificate in such a manner as they have allowed in the US.

The Maggie Thatcher era broke the union's hold over our Labour Party with regard to funding their own motives and agenda for their own ends.
Sadly, that cannot be said for US politics as it is still ruled by the wealthy, again for their own agenda.
The NRA is but one (albeit large) facet of that type of wealt-driven politics.
Whenever any serious gun control measures are proposed, they whip-up such a frenzy amongst the gun-toting populace, usually by citing the 2nd, that anything put on the table is just washed away.

That's the modern version of the ancient (and outdated) politics of the aristocracy of the UK in Henry's days.
Put simply: have wealth and status and you get to rule most of the politics. The common people don't really matter any more.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 185

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 12:18:03 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Is that how you view the 2nd Amendment??

It's how I view the entire Bill of Rights. The government shall not, may not, will not.

It's a common point of failed communication, and I find especially difficult to get over, around, or through it, when engaging with posters from the UK/Commonwealth. Our rights are not granted to us, to be taken at a whim. They are inherent in us, and the government is denied the ability to infringe. It doesn't always work that way, obviously, but we are coming at the question from entirely different philosophical foundations.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 186

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 12:19:32 PM

blacksword404

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What is the problem with securing firearms?

Define secure. Not in the abstract but specifically.

Use a common sense approach as we have in the UK........ Those with fire arms must have them looked and secured in an appropriate (and checked by the police) gun container. If they get stolen after that it isnt the owners fault.

At best all you are doing is delaying the amount of time it takes them to get your guns. If its the type of crime where they want to get in and out quickly then it may work. But if you're out of town for the holidays, they might have a few days to get it open.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 187

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 12:30:20 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Is that how you view the 2nd Amendment??

It's how I view the entire Bill of Rights. The government shall not, may not, will not.

It's a common point of failed communication, and I find especially difficult to get over, around, or through it, when engaging with posters from the UK/Commonwealth. Our rights are not granted to us, to be taken at a whim. They are inherent in us, and the government is denied the ability to infringe. It doesn't always work that way, obviously, but we are coming at the question from entirely different philosophical foundations.

I see where you're coming from.

But... if you didn't have the 2nd at all but had something completely the opposite, would you still be thinking the same way?? I doubt it.

Nobody is born with the right to have a gun - right back to before the days of flintlocks and beyond.
You were given that right by the 2nd amendment when the country had virtually no regular army.
The vision then, was that the country could defend itself by its population.
But the meaning of the 2nd has gotten warped and used out of context and is thus invalid these days.
What was given can be taken away. Simples.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 188

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 12:40:25 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Our rights are not granted to us...

What was given can be taken away.

K.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 189

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:12:41 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nobody is born with the right to have a gun - right back to before the days of flintlocks and beyond.
You were given that right by the 2nd amendment

See? This is the communication barrier. Of course we are not born with a right to own a gun. What is inherent is the right to individual self-defense, be it from a nasty-tempered deadly snake in my yard (and educate yourself on Mojave Rattlesnakes, if you choose to challenge the need to do that), an intruder in my home, or defending myself from tyranny, because the government knows the population has the means to rise up.

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed. That doesn't give me anything I didn't already have. It denies the government the power to try and take it away.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 190

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:28:54 PM

blacksword404

Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What is the problem with securing firearms?

Define secure. Not in the abstract but specifically.

Use a common sense approach as we have in the UK........ Those with fire arms must have them looked and secured in an appropriate (and checked by the police) gun container. If they get stolen after that it isnt the owners fault.

As far as police coming into homes go. Not in this country. We don't much like uninvited strangers with guns coming into our houses. Less so government sent armed strangers.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 191

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:30:38 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

If you had read the thread about NRA funding, you would have learned the NRA is not funded by corporations (seems to be less than 16%) and is primarily a grass roots citizen funded group.

It was trying to fight the myths you guys STILL believe that made me start threads.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 192

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:41:06 PM

nighthawk3569

Posts: 283
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Every solution but the obvious, ban assault type rifles.

Why just assult-type rifles??

I wonder what percentage of gun murders are attributed to assult rifles compared to all other gun types??

So why pick on just one type of gun?
That's why all previous attempts at gun control have failed in the US - far too specific to be of any real use.
It's also why anything coming out of the report for Obama won't be good enough either - coz it just won't go far enough.
Why won't it go far enough?
Because they will only ever put things in it that they think they might stand half-a-snowballs chance of getting through congress.

I have never said there aught to be a total ban on guns in the US. I am unsure where you stayed while you were there, but I was out in the wilds so agree there is a need for protection.

I would advocate a complete ban on guns.
I lived most of my time in FL (Jax & Tampa areas), a little up in Raleigh (Nth Carolina) and a few weeks just north of NYC.
I just find the whole idea of people owning guns so abhorrent and 'unnatural' that I would never own one unless I was liable to be mauled by the local bear population or wild cyotes.

If you can justify a real need for a gun (for bears and other nasty wildlife; not other humans), then by all means get one, get a proper firearms certificate of proficiency in the use of it and provide a safe place to keep it and also take out 3rd party insurance against someone being injured or killed by it.
Of course, you wouldn't be allowed to hoard an arsenal of weapons - just those deemed necessary for the job at hand.
And I see nothing wrong with that idea at all.

But guns for the general populace??
Bad idea in the first place.
It was fine when the 2nd was drawn up - guns and society weren't as advanced as they are now and there wasn't really much of a regular 'national' army either. So it has it's use in its day - but not now; it's outdated and unnecessary.

quote:

But guns for the general populace??
Bad idea in the first place.
It was fine when the 2nd was drawn up - guns and society weren't as advanced as they are now and there wasn't really much of a regular 'national' army either. So it has it's use in its day - but not now; it's outdated and unnecessary.

NEWS FLASH: Bring all US troops home...do away with the 'standing army'...give each head of household a handgun(with 1000 rounds of ammo)and an assult weapon(with 5000 rounds of ammo). Require heads of households to practice regularly(at least once every 3 months). That, alone, should save enough to pay off the national debt in a couple of years.

'hawk

_____________________________

"If the government is big enough to give you everything you want...then it's big enough to take away everything you have!"

Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 193

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:42:05 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nobody is born with the right to have a gun - right back to before the days of flintlocks and beyond.
You were given that right by the 2nd amendment

See? This is the communication barrier. Of course we are not born with a right to own a gun. What is inherent is the right to individual self-defense, be it from a nasty-tempered deadly snake in my yard (and educate yourself on Mojave Rattlesnakes, if you choose to challenge the need to do that), an intruder in my home, or defending myself from tyranny, because the government knows the population has the means to rise up.

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed. That doesn't give me anything I didn't already have. It denies the government the power to try and take it away.

I don't see it as a communication barrier at all.
I see it as a willful obstruction of democracy.

You don't need a gun to kill or remove a snake - any snake.

You don't need a gun to ward off an intruder.
In a land where guns are not the norm, your intruder isn't likely to be armed.
See where I'm coming from here??

You don't need a gun to defend against tyranny either.
Throughout history, reigns and realms have been overthrown without the use of guns. Fact.

So now you're only left with the 2nd to defend your pro-gun stance.
"The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed".
And that is set in stone?? I don't think so.
It's just this typical asshat backwards thinking that holds a whole country to ransom and sends it backwards.
It's just another law that is able to be repealed and abolished by those wishing it.

If the majory wanted to ban weapons, then it will happen - regardless of the 2nd.

Isn't this how a democracy should work??
If the majority don't get to influence the laws and governance of a country, it is no longer a democracy.
And we are witnessing such uprisings against dictatorships all through the middle east.

Do you honestly want the US to be viewed by the rest of the world as a dictatorship regime controlled by a few with purse strings?

That situation would certainly destroy what is known as "The American Dream".

Good luck to you is all I can say.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 194

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 1:43:20 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Marini as always you are a breath of fresh air. Your common sense and gentle yet effective way of stating positions has often changed my mind in an instant. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say but in a much better way.

I don't ever mean to be confrontational but I sometimes inadvertently come off sounding that way... you have the knack to get a point across and make people feel good about being wrong…lol

Butch

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Post #: 195

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:02:01 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

At best all you are doing is delaying the amount of time it takes them to get your guns. If its the type of crime where they want to get in and out quickly then it may work. But if you're out of town for the holidays, they might have a few days to get it open.

Yet you miss the whole point. the guns owner is at least doing "Something" and isnt responsible if his guns then get stolen. It also has the advantage of being a slight delay if the owner wants to grab one in temper. It might just give him pause for thought.

(in reply to blacksword404)

Post #: 196

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:07:46 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

As far as police coming into homes go. Not in this country. We don't much like uninvited strangers with guns coming into our houses. Less so government sent armed strangers.

They cant do that here either, with or without a gun unless they have a valid court order. I suspect the same is true in the US or are you suggesting cops with a warrant cant enter private premises ?

Again you miss the point re the police inspection. If I need a gun and can justify the need, I apply for a license. Getting that is dependent on satisfying the fact I have a need, and allowing the police to see I have a secure place to keep it.

(in reply to blacksword404)

Post #: 197

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:13:36 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 198

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:41:01 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

specifically, secure means anyone not authorized to use the firearm cant get the damn thing.

and do you want the gov "inspecting" your house to see that you secure them the way someone in D C thinks you should

No I don't.Just as I'm sure 20 sets of parents did not want to lose their children to senseless gun violence the other day.
You can keep coming up with reasons why this or that won't be possible or is too much of an imposition in the execution...but the facts remain...the nation will not continue to blindly sit by and pay witness to this carnage.
Sandy Hook was a game changer,a tipping point if you will...somethings will,of necessity change,business as usual can not be allowed to go on.
Now I haven't read the whole thread,I lost a full day driving to New York(and today is recovery day)but if what I did read is representative of the thread(someone suggests steps that can be done,someone else comes along and punches holes in it)and from what I heard on the radio vis a vis the NRA news conference....gun enthusiasts just don't get it,they still think the issue can be deflected onto something other than guns.
Make no mistake,we as a society do indeed have other issues...but the gun carnage must be slowed down,which means tightening up access to guns.
That is plain and simple to anyone who is not guilty of bias in this discussion.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 199

RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:51:36 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

I don't see it as a communication barrier at all.

Fair enough then. Battering at walls of denial just bores the hell out of me.

Have a nice day, and a Merry Christmas.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 200

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