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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 11:38:55 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

because even though you don't want to admit it it will undermine the 4th admendment



What 4th Amendment? They gutted that, in pursuit of the drug prohibition.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 11:41:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I'm seeing Tazzy's new legal principle in action. I get my wallet stolen, the thief buys drugs with my money, shares them with his siblings, one dies, I'm on the hook for it? Or the farmer who didn't have a good enough safe for his diesel fuel and the fertilizer for the back 40. Now another Federal building is wasted and he's responsible? Legal priciples are nasty that way, like most things, there are unanticipated consequences. Like someone making a totally logical extension of the principle and turning morality and causation on it's head? And we trust the professional clowns in Congress and the career miscreants who populate many civil service offices to make truly effective and minimally invasive laws on securing guns? Look at the health care system, the War on Drugs or the FDA, how can that level of competence have a real effect on school attacks?


No, you arent seeing it.

Your wallet example.... how are you on the hook for it? How can they even trace it back to you? In order for your attempt at hooking the two together, you would have to be charged with murder if someone stole your gun and killed someone. Or charged with robbery if they held someone up. That isnt the case.

Now, why dont you try again.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/21/2012 11:42:17 PM >

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 11:53:59 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		For those interested, the Secret Service, likely the best present agency dealing effectively with 'targeted violence' commissioned a study of the known school shootings and published the study. It explodes many of the stereotypes we get from the news with the actual facts of what happens and when as best is known. Sandy Hook is way off the chart and probably the worst possible case to make national policy around. Note the point near the beginning where the experts state school violence is DECLINING and has been for decades.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncjrs.gov%2Fpdffiles1%2Fjr000248c.pdf&ei=r2TVUMbONYH9igKg34HADg&usg=AFQjCNFqWJo9aJOQV3sJaUX88m4seLDQ_g&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/21/2012 11:59:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		This article summarizes USSS Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention
of Targeted Violence in Schools (Washington, DC: U.S. Secret Service, National Threat
Assessment Center, 2000). The summary is published with permission from NTAC.

The full report, with expanded findings, is anticipated in early 2002. The research was
funded in part through NIJ grant number 00–MU–MU–A003

2000?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 2:44:14 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
If someone wants into a bank vault badly enough, they'll figure out a way, and no gun safe is going to offer more protection than that..


Well then, lets throw out all the gun laws all together. Allow Americans to carry any kind of weapon. So how much does a 100 megaton warhead go on ebay these days? Cus sooner or later, the big guns will talk, and it will not be just two dozen pretty, small, adorably cute 1st graders that are mowed down....

So, we arm everyone in the back with full automatic weapons, right? Insert this little nugget of wisdom back into your sentence above and TRY to understand how your arguement fails even worst. Many banks are built like fortresses. There is a reason for it. Getting in is the easy part. Getting out is much tougher. Cus guess what? When those bank robbers are trying to flee, they'll find numerous police and states before them. And those guys typically bring LOTS of high powered guns with them. Because they ARE "A well regulated militia....".

And they do not joke around.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 3:02:00 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

When those bank robbers are trying to flee, they'll find numerous police and states before them. And those guys typically bring LOTS of high powered guns with them. Because they ARE "A well regulated militia....".

And they do not joke around.

The police are not a militia, so they are not a "well-regulated militia". If they were a militia, they would be a "select militia". Then they would be a well-regulated select militia. But they aren't, so they're not. The National Guard is a select militia, though whether you would consider it well-regulated I couldn't say. But when it comes to some serious not joking around, they are the ones who don't joke around.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/22/2012 3:04:19 AM >

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 4:30:48 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Apart from anything else, the Police have a federal wing, rather than being purely state based, so the mere existence of the FBI (and DEA, and a few other other non military alphabet soup agencies) excludes them from that whole militia thang...

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 5:14:11 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

So, if I don't have a safe and I'm a victim of a crime (breaking and entering) it's my fault if a gun gets stolen and a crime is later committed.


You are liable for not properly storing your weapons.

quote:

If a framing hammer or knife gets stolen and someone is killed with it, it's the thief's fault.


I can kill you with a pillow. A gun's only purpose is to shoot bullets.

quote:

How about a chainsaw and hockey mask? where does that come in?

Blame the crime victim.


And you are seeing this as if you will be charged with killing someone?



As for "You are liable for not properly storing your weapons." How far is it from that to "you are liable for not hiding your body?


"I can kill you with a pillow. A gun's only purpose is to shoot bullets."
A hammer's only purpose is to smash into things HARD. Bot are deadly to humans only when misused.

"And you are seeing this as if you will be charged with killing someone?"
You are seeing it as I would be liabe for the actions of a criminal just like in #1 above. Make a crime victim liable for the actions of a criminal.

Blame the victim. What part of that do you not understand you're doing? It's only 3 words.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 5:43:16 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Edit: Nm. Fuck it.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/22/2012 6:29:37 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 9:04:54 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Your thread ?
Pshaww,I crafted 7 finely tuned,distinctive,thought provoking threads.
And She destroyed them with one key stroke


lol...When will the world learn WE have the right answers.

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(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 9:28:24 AM   
VideoAdminTheta


Posts: 3967
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline 		Per Alpha: She will be reviewing the consolidation thread and may be making some changes in some of the threads that were consolidated, sometime today.

Thank you

Theta

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 9:55:17 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Every solution but the obvious, ban assault type rifles.

It's a reliable sign that you've fallen down a rabbit hole when things aren't what they are anymore. There is no appreciable difference between the rate of fire of an AR-15 (the alleged "assault weapon" here) and any other auto-loading firearm, pistols included. They all fire a single round with each pull of the trigger. Trying to pull off the illusion that an AR-15 is an "assault weapon" should be left to the fellows with top-hats and pretty assistants.

K.



If you say so...... The figures I posted dont seem to agree with you though.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:01:02 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Do you have anything rational to contribute to a discussion?

Or just that tired old internet debate trick of of making up a bunch of strawman nonsense that wasn't posted so you can troll for a pointless argument?

The point that you are trying to derail is that there are some severe problems with society which lead to these events, and superstitious voodoo solutions aren't going to help.
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
If someone wants into a bank vault badly enough, they'll figure out a way, and no gun safe is going to offer more protection than that..


Well then, lets throw out all the gun laws all together. Allow Americans to carry any kind of weapon. So how much does a 100 megaton warhead go on ebay these days? Cus sooner or later, the big guns will talk, and it will not be just two dozen pretty, small, adorably cute 1st graders that are mowed down....

So, we arm everyone in the back with full automatic weapons, right? Insert this little nugget of wisdom back into your sentence above and TRY to understand how your arguement fails even worst. Many banks are built like fortresses. There is a reason for it. Getting in is the easy part. Getting out is much tougher. Cus guess what? When those bank robbers are trying to flee, they'll find numerous police and states before them. And those guys typically bring LOTS of high powered guns with them. Because they ARE "A well regulated militia....".

And they do not joke around.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 12/22/2012 10:02:33 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:01:57 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

can you prove beyond doubt that he wouldn't have


All these "what ifs" are exactly that..... stick your head in the sand blame anything but the gun.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:06:59 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What is the problem with securing firearms?


Define secure. Not in the abstract but specifically.


Use a common sense approach as we have in the UK........ Those with fire arms must have them looked and secured in an appropriate (and checked by the police) gun container. If they get stolen after that it isnt the owners fault.

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:09:36 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Note that the date is 12 years ago... thanks to the media's sensatonalzing of the handful of incidents, we can no long rely on that claim.
quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

For those interested, the Secret Service, likely the best present agency dealing effectively with 'targeted violence' commissioned a study of the known school shootings and published the study. It explodes many of the stereotypes we get from the news with the actual facts of what happens and when as best is known. Sandy Hook is way off the chart and probably the worst possible case to make national policy around. Note the point near the beginning where the experts state school violence is DECLINING and has been for decades.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncjrs.gov%2Fpdffiles1%2Fjr000248c.pdf&ei=r2TVUMbONYH9igKg34HADg&usg=AFQjCNFqWJo9aJOQV3sJaUX88m4seLDQ_g&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to epiphiny43)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:29:48 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

can you prove beyond doubt that he wouldn't have


All these "what ifs" are exactly that..... stick your head in the sand blame anything but the gun.



I fully agree!! (Now there's something new! lol).

They keep saying that we know nothing because the UK and Australia aren't the US.
Whilst that may be true, the US basically used the UK constitution when it was originally drawn up.
The same was also true of the Australian one, originally.

Both the UK and Australian constition allowed civilians to bear arms in 1791 when the 2nd was made.
When nearly two centuries had passed, both the UK and Australia (within a year of each other) decided that the old law didn't fit modern western society any more - so they changed it for the better.
The citizens didn't like it any more than those in the US do now - but they just did it.
Unconstitutional, yes. Undemocratic, yes. But a safer country? Most certainly!!
The death figures, per capita, speak for themselves.

Our kids are safe in our schools.
The schools don't look like high-security prisons with armed guards.


So who are the asshats that know nothing??


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 10:33:07 AM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		/
quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminTheta

Per Alpha: She will be reviewing the consolidation thread and may be making some changes in some of the threads that were consolidated, sometime today.

Thank you

Theta


I am glad to hear this!
I think we should be able to create new threads related to gun issues, and on the other hand, I don't think any ONE member should be allowed to create 10-20 threads daily on any topic.

It's really only been 3-4 posters who feel compelled to create dozens of threads on gun issues, why does everyone always have to suffer for the few that take things to the extreme??

I never could figure out why certain people are compelled to create DOZENS of threads on a daily basis anyway.
It pushes other page 1 WORTHY threads to back pages, and they get to just rattle on and on.
It's as if they feel, it is THEIR own personal message board.

I feel strongly about limiting the number of threads a person can create on a daily basis.

Get a fucking hobby or create your own website.
I go to other message boards on other websites, and I DON'T want to have to read dozens of threads all started by the same person/people.
It's rude and bad form.
It's also usually NOT tolerated.
It's self centered and speaks volumes about them as a person.

It's the PRIMARY reason, extreme measures such as creating ONE thread for all related issues have to be created in the first place!!!!!!

I have found in life, it's always one or few, that make it hard for the rest of us.

Thanks in advance.
Merry Christmas to all!



< Message edited by Marini -- 12/22/2012 11:02:02 AM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to VideoAdminTheta)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:00:31 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I agree, Mari. Every so often, especially when I'm in a pithy smartass sort of mode, or playing in the section I still think of as Random Stupidy, I'll get a little pop-up that tells me I cannot post two messages in such a short time. Why not something similiar for forum posting? Or, why not a thread starting form of moderation, that would still allow posters to fully participate in the discussion, but require new threads to be ok'd first, when a poster wants to illustrate what a fucking asshat they are?

Several threads on aspects of gun control would be good. Even when I was trying to tell a certain individual to knock it off, before exactly this happened, I was saying we couldn't do this subject on one. Gun control is probably the biggest subject of political discussion in the US right now. It should be fair game, and individual aspects should not be buried and lost, as they will be here.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/22/2012 11:02:40 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Both the UK and Australian constition allowed




There is a critical difference. In those countries, rights are given to the people by the government, while in the US, powers are denied to the government by the people.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 180
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