RE: All things gun control go here

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Nosathro -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 3:32:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael All things considered, the FBI does its best to be rather professional. The tranny may have ignored the mob and rewarded groupthink a bit heavily but their ethos as an agency is pretty upright. Anyone in the wine or firearms industry knows what crazy cowboys ATF agents are Hasbro, sons of anarchy IS a TV show, good call. The crazy, murderious, lying evil bitch ATF agent is an amalgam of REAL LIVE agents plus an incident in Sacramento where one agent shot another he was sleeping with, either out of fear of being outed or being left, I cant remember which. Disbanding ATF and putting firearms under the FBI would drop gun crime by a signifixant number in five years and even more in 10. So we are still basing everything on a TV show. Sounds like what happen in Sacramento was personal. Then again I remember the real life conviction of a State Policeman who murdered his wife because she was going to divorce him and that would mean she get some of his pention. As to the FBI they have there problems too. There is no reason to believe disbanding the ATF and or having the FBI take over have any signifiant effect. By the way you are aware the ATF is part of the Secret Service? And that ATF is under the Department of the Treasury where the FBI is under the Department of Justice.

TheHeretic -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 3:35:11 PM)
If we are going to have to do this with everybody pitching everything on one thread, it's definitely time to speed up the scrolling.

BamaD -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 3:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 As far as police coming into homes go. Not in this country. We don't much like uninvited strangers with guns coming into our houses. Less so government sent armed strangers. They cant do that here either, with or without a gun unless they have a valid court order. I suspect the same is true in the US or are you suggesting cops with a warrant cant enter private premises ? Again you miss the point re the police inspection. If I need a gun and can justify the need, I apply for a license. Getting that is dependent on satisfying the fact I have a need, and allowing the police to see I have a secure place to keep it. No if they have a warrant they can enter. and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun

BamaD -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:02:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Nobody is born with the right to have a gun - right back to before the days of flintlocks and beyond. You were given that right by the 2nd amendment See? This is the communication barrier. Of course we are not born with a right to own a gun. What is inherent is the right to individual self-defense, be it from a nasty-tempered deadly snake in my yard (and educate yourself on Mojave Rattlesnakes, if you choose to challenge the need to do that), an intruder in my home, or defending myself from tyranny, because the government knows the population has the means to rise up. The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed. That doesn't give me anything I didn't already have. It denies the government the power to try and take it away. I don't see it as a communication barrier at all. I see it as a willful obstruction of democracy. You don't need a gun to kill or remove a snake - any snake. You don't need a gun to ward off an intruder. In a land where guns are not the norm, your intruder isn't likely to be armed. See where I'm coming from here?? You don't need a gun to defend against tyranny either. Throughout history, reigns and realms have been overthrown without the use of guns. Fact. So now you're only left with the 2nd to defend your pro-gun stance. "The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not be Infringed". And that is set in stone?? I don't think so. It's just this typical asshat backwards thinking that holds a whole country to ransom and sends it backwards. It's just another law that is able to be repealed and abolished by those wishing it. If the majory wanted to ban weapons, then it will happen - regardless of the 2nd. Isn't this how a democracy should work?? If the majority don't get to influence the laws and governance of a country, it is no longer a democracy. And we are witnessing such uprisings against dictatorships all through the middle east. Do you honestly want the US to be viewed by the rest of the world as a dictatorship regime controlled by a few with purse strings? That situation would certainly destroy what is known as "The American Dream". Good luck to you is all I can say. they will be armed maybe not with a gun but a teenager with a knive has a bigger edge over a 62 year old wiyh a knive than if both have guns, in fact with guns I have the edge due to experiance

TheHeretic -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:17:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun And for the last 20 years, the finding of probable cause can be based on hearsay evidence, in whole or in part.

Politesub53 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:27:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Spare us the usual dishonest tap dance. The topic under discussion was children choking. In medical research child mortality rates for choking are measured in the age 1 to 5 cohort, as documented earlier. Your assertion on that topic about massacres being ignored was a false analogy, you were called on it. Now you are being called on your numerous attempts to derail useful discussion in favor of schadenfreude. Blatant lying over my posts just makes you look stupid. Stop your bleating and read my posts again. The topic in question was/is massacres/gun control. I havent made one post regards chocolates, other than the one to you copied. Nothing schadenfraude about dead kids. This is just an obnoxious strawman to try and support your dopey argument.

kdsub -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:28:15 PM)
quote: And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well. tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread. I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated. My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase. Butch

Politesub53 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:29:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I was out at a, "secure facility," on Friday. Gates, fences, cameras, a couple staff members with firearms in their desks, and absolutely nothing that would stop a determined attacker who figured it was a good day to die. Yet some on here and the NRA suggest arm guards would prevent future similar events from happening.

Politesub53 -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:33:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD and to get a warrent you need to prove probible cause beyond they have a gun No one said otherwise. [8\|]

tazzygirl -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 4:46:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well. tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread. I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated. My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase. Butch BENEFITS The City of Pittsburgh offers a wide variety of benefits to Police Officers, including: Salary $13.69 per hour while in Training Academy $40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012 Uniform Allowance Pension Plan Life, Health, Dental and Vision Insurance Paid Holidays and Vacation Credit Union Membership Voluntary Retirement Savings (457) Plan Tuition Assistance http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/personnel/police Are we really going to put in a first year police officer? On the tax issue.... reassessment's were just done here... and many are going to court over that issue. I dont think they can squeeze much more out of property tax at this time.

Nosathro -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:15:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: And the 50,000 isnt the only cost associated with being a police officer. There are the benefits as well. tazzy how much above your base salary are your benefits... I addressed that in an earlier thread. I doubt that all benefits and training would equal $20,000...still just an equal of 5 extra students on average total It is doable it would just take budgeting. Even if additional tax were required for a district i think it would be a very small tax increase that would pass overwhelmingly...You are just making it too complicated. My school districtd gets much of its support from real estate taxes... they have a rate that they can increase without the vote of the people... they would have no problem adding guards...and very few at that because they already have them without a tax increase. Butch BENEFITS The City of Pittsburgh offers a wide variety of benefits to Police Officers, including: Salary $13.69 per hour while in Training Academy $40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012 Uniform Allowance Pension Plan Life, Health, Dental and Vision Insurance Paid Holidays and Vacation Credit Union Membership Voluntary Retirement Savings (457) Plan Tuition Assistance http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/personnel/police Are we really going to put in a first year police officer? On the tax issue.... reassessment's were just done here... and many are going to court over that issue. I dont think they can squeeze much more out of property tax at this time. You may also want to consider over-time. Here there are some OC Sherriffs Deputies making over $100,000 a year thanks to over-time. You would be surprised at how much a Pension Plan would cost the public, especially when it is one that reqires contributions from both sides. Also medical insurance goes up and up and up. Another thing to consider is the disability, many Police officers do not make their 20 years but leave due to a medical disablity and they have a very good one.

tazzygirl -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:16:15 PM)
We dont have enough police officers as it is. Im sure they are all on overtime.

Nosathro -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:27:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael If you ever watched Sons of Anarchy where the atf agent shoots her lover? That happened in Sacramento in real life. They are a rogue agencg. The Sons of Anarchy is a TV show..not real life....[;)] Maybe finish reading the paragraph, Nosathro? Power corrupts, Michael. Pretty much any government agency with an enforcement arm has the potential to go rogue. You've been mentioning the FBI lately, but perhaps a little Wikipedia exploration on their history would be in order for you. There was this Hoover guy... Well let see now, you mention Hoover, all the things he did, like lie, blackmail, spy on people who were said anything about him he did not like (that part of 1st Admendment you know). The FBI labatory making false reports. The FBI agent who was spying for the Chinese, then there is the FBI agents who let a known criminal gang run wild, they claim the leader was providing information but no arrests were ever made, I could go on, you are right, power does corrupt.

Nosathro -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:38:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael No, they were showing why the 2nd amendment backs up the 1st amendment so when the government stops using pepper spray...like they did at kent state, waco, etc... Kent State was back before pepper spray. There were several lawsuits filed in the Kent State shooting, however all were dismissed, on the film the juries heard the students yell "Charge" and run toward the National Guard who had warned them. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created to protect the 1st. The agruements for the 2nd Admendment were to counter tyrannical governments.

BamaD -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:46:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael No, they were showing why the 2nd amendment backs up the 1st amendment so when the government stops using pepper spray...like they did at kent state, waco, etc... Kent State was back before pepper spray. There were several lawsuits filed in the Kent State shooting, however all were dismissed, on the film the juries heard the students yell "Charge" and run toward the National Guard who had warned them. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created to protect the 1st. The agruements for the 2nd Admendment were to counter tyrannical governments. Thomas Jefferson would disagree, in fact he did

kdsub -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 5:49:06 PM)
I have been saying $50,000 as a national average higher than your example why are you posting a rebuttal that makes no sense? I gave an exaggerated benefit amount of $20,000. The total of $70,000 would only equal 6 national average students. Almost any district can afford 6 more students per school so I’m sure they could afford a police guard will little trouble. And if not the single salary per school spread over the whole distinct would most likely be pennies on the dollar tax increase if necessary. Can you imagine any district voting down this type of proposal…even though it would not be necessary in the vast majority of school districts. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 6:06:21 PM)
quote: I have been saying $50,000 as a national average higher than your example why are you posting a rebuttal that makes no sense? Salary $13.69 per hour while in Training Academy $40,896 Police Officer First Year Salary for 2012 Pittsburgh Full-time employees: 3,148 Number making $100,000 or more last year: 196 Top 10 earners in 2009 1. Jerome R. Wasek, paramedic crew chief, $174,880.99 2. Harry J. Scherer, fire deputy chief, $148,339.95 3. Mark J. Goob, police detective, $144,254.16 4. Michael J. Mullen, fire deputy chief, $143,872.43 5. William G. Haines, police sergeant, $142,370.03 6. Charles J. Lenz, fire battalion chief, $141,618.61 7. Thomas J. Atkins, police lieutenant, $141,339.91 8. Daniel P. Hennessy, fire deputy chief, $139,732.16 9. Terry A. Pryor, police officer, $136,682.66 10. John H. Soderberg, paramedic crew chief, $136,531.22 Number making $100,000 or more last year: 32 Top 10 earners in 2009 1. Karl E. Williams, medical examiner, $180,250.20 2. Stephen A. Zappala Jr., district attorney, $156,565.96 3. Marc K. Cherna, human services director, $155,149.05 4. Dennis M. Davin, economic development director, $150,149.05 5. Abdulrezak M. Shakir, deputy medical examiner, $149,474.20 6. Terry L. Hediger, county homicide detective, $133,518.33 (retired Dec. 15) 7. Todd M. Luckasevic, associate medical examiner, $132,637.18 8. Baiyang Xu, associate medical examiner, $129,156.57 9. Russell E. Strathen, jail corrections officer, $118,855.76 10. Perry Vahaly, police sergeant, $113,076.11 Read more: http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_683612.html#ixzz2Fvl7VRm9 Follow us: @triblive on Twitter \| triblive on Facebook Dec. 15--Officials from Western Pennsylvania towns, where some police officers earn $100,000 a year, are scrutinizing public safety costs that can consume half the annual budget. Patrol officers in Monroeville, for example, earned an average of $105,471, including overtime, in 2010. Their compensation was tops in the state among more than 900 police departments, municipal finance experts say. Monroeville patrol officers must be on the job four years now, instead of three, before they reach the top-scale pay of $96,000. Their base salary remains $52,000. Moon paid starting officers $56,034 in 2010, although patrol officers earned an average $94,168 with overtime. Upper St. Clair officers' starting salary was $47,944, but patrol officers earned an average $85,403 with overtime. Moon employs 30 officers; Upper St. Clair, 27. http://insurancenewsnet.com/article.aspx?id=313566#.UNe3C-TAfv4 Now, add your benefits of 20,000 (which I think is a little low, but ok) and you are quickly at 100,000 an officer with experience... which is the only one's who should be patrolling the schools. Overtime adds up. We dont have enough cops as it is. Shrugs.... Im done trying to explain something that should be simple to understand with budget cuts and not enough police.

Hillwilliam -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 6:14:10 PM)
Here's about the only way I justify SRO's (School Resource Officers) Our town has about 14,000 people. During the day, there are about 12-15 officers on shift which is about 1/1000 people. The HS has about 1000 students and staff. Kinda makes sense to put a cop where about 1000 people are concentrated.

tazzygirl -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 6:31:43 PM)
All depends on how the school is designed. My high school had one main building, 2 stories, then 4 pods, connected by walkways, both stories, uncovered. Last year, the enrollment there was 7,700(total for the county) The schools here in Pittsburgh are unlike anything I am used too... but Im told they are sorta like the one's in NY... some classes are here.. some there... they drive or take the bus to get to the different campuses if needed. Even with just student size, one district here has 25,000 students among 54 schools.... there are 43 districts in Allegheny County.

BamaD -> RE: All things gun control go here (12/23/2012 6:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Here's about the only way I justify SRO's (School Resource Officers) Our town has about 14,000 people. During the day, there are about 12-15 officers on shift which is about 1/1000 people. The HS has about 1000 students and staff. Kinda makes sense to put a cop where about 1000 people are concentrated. or you could eliminate a couple of assistant superentendents who don't improve education anyway

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