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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 1:59:17 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I've never said that anything was the only cause, and you are well aware of that.

I've spelled out repeatedly that too easy access to too powerful weapons, plus the gun culture, plus the media's according celebrity status to mass killers, plus venal politicians, plus society's refusal to address the epidemic of suicides, plus mental health/medical issues on top of the human condition known as 'othering' have created a nexus that leads to these *specific* events.
I have further posited that because none of those factors are in actual abatement, it is rational to expect to see the numbers increase.

I have offered up the notion that it would be good to focus on several of these factors in a *useful* way, instead of simply using the occasion to whip people (or be whipped) into a feeding frenzy of blame and fingerpointing... which only serves to exacerbate several of the factors mentioned above.

That is a matter of record.

And your contribution to the 'polite' discourse (i.e. 'Prick', 'shit-for-brains', 'areshole', along with denial that I've ever posted what everyone can see that I posted, plus your impotent internet tough guy challenge) are also a matter of record.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'll let the obvious fact that fact that I've posted repeatedly about medical and social causes behind these mass killings be the proof that you are lying when you claim that I've never posted them.

I'll let the inability of anyone to produce a single post of your's adding anything useful to the discussion, debunk the second lie.

And I'll let your name calling in response to a polite request for rational discourse be your final word.



Are you really suggesting medical causes are the only reasons for mass murders ?

You werent polite you were an arsehole. You accused myself and others from getting joy from other peoples deaths. (Schadenfreude)

I have challenged you to show me where I kept doing this, and as yet you have neither the brains nor the balls (or indeed proof) to do so.




< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 12/24/2012 2:05:35 PM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 2:02:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Hell's bells, I think I've seen everything, now. Armed guards, or even police, in elementary schools . . . .

What sort of society do people want? What sort of society will they put up with?


I agree but what else can be done...we must, like it or not, have some type of security. It will not stop all I would suppose but if it even stops one it will be worth it.

Other threads and posts have addressed other options like better mental health care. This problem needs to be addressed on many fronts.

One we have not addressed much is the God awful media coverage that almost glorifies the killer and his motives. I would like to see laws that report the tragedy but keeps the perpetrators manifestos and any information other than his name from the news. It is my belief that the killers on the whole are trying to get this media attention by their very acts. If all information on the killer is withheld then maybe there would be less incentive to commit these crimes.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/24/2012 2:03:47 PM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 2:12:07 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Police work isn't so interchangable with all these other things.

First the comparison of accuracy between police in a shooting situation, and the 'average' (i.e. shooting paper targets in a safe facility) overlooks some fairly important factors.

Second, soldiers train to destroy, police train to use only the minimum amount of force needed to stop the threat.
When the shooting starts, the police aren't trained in military style fire tactics, they are trained to observe Garner/Graham restrictions. The military operates with 'collateral damage' as a given, and schools are no place to lay down a field of fire until mortars can be deployed.

Third, most security guards are hired to be visible, not to defeat evil-doers.

Fourth , the Neighborhood Watch volunteers are supposed to provide information, period.

Fifth, armed volunteers aka posses are fraught with obvious problems aka 'lynch mobs'.

Sixth, there is a good reason why there are federal laws against using active duty military to perform civilian law enforcement.

Seventh, using former police and military raises the question of the rates of emotional prolemes in both of those subcultures... very likely problems that overlap with some of the causes of the mass shootings in the first place.

I think that rather than shoot-from-the-hip magic fixes, there needs to be a systemic move away from business as usual on multiple fronts. The status quo is broken.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

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Profile   Post #: 363
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 2:59:56 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA? Or why people who live under the protections and guarantees of the US Constitution are wasting a moment giving them the satisfaction of a response to their sideline heckling?


Something interesting. A buddy of mine picked up an AR-15 about a month ago. He paid $725. The husband of a co-worker bought one last week. He paid $1500.






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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 3:09:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA?



Yes, it's probably because our arguments are so much better than those built on the hogwash that American gun-fans have been using for so long.

I hope that helps.


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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 3:28:32 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA? Or why people who live under the protections and guarantees of the US Constitution are wasting a moment giving them the satisfaction of a response to their sideline heckling?


Something interesting. A buddy of mine picked up an AR-15 about a month ago. He paid $725. The husband of a co-worker bought one last week. He paid $1500.






I would Rich, but I dont think you would like my answer.
So instead, in the spirit of the Season...
Merry Christmas to you and yours.


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Profile   Post #: 366
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 3:41:34 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I would Rich, but I dont think you would like my answer.
So instead, in the spirit of the Season...
Merry Christmas to you and yours.




I promise, Lucy, your answer wouldn't bother me one bit.

Merry Christmas back atcha, and a Happy New Year on top of it!

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 4:01:14 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA? Or why people who live under the protections and guarantees of the US Constitution are wasting a moment giving them the satisfaction of a response to their sideline heckling?


Something interesting. A buddy of mine picked up an AR-15 about a month ago. He paid $725. The husband of a co-worker bought one last week. He paid $1500.



Come off it Rich, admin have said this isnt some exclusive club for Americans. I have, in this very thread, defended gun ownership.

Issues arise, we chip in. No one makes anyone read it.

That said, happy christmas to you and yours.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 4:04:24 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

Oh yes, the clocks have just chimed midnight here (ahead of the Americans, as usual, *smug chortle*).

So . . . CRASSMAS GRUNTINGS ONE AND ALL!!!

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 5:20:50 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		ty peon. Merry christmas to you and yours as well.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 5:38:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

No, they were showing why the 2nd amendment backs up the 1st amendment so when the government stops using pepper spray...like they did at kent state, waco, etc...


Kent State was back before pepper spray. There were several lawsuits filed in the Kent State shooting, however all were dismissed, on the film the juries heard the students yell "Charge" and run toward the National Guard who had warned them. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created to protect the 1st. The agruements for the 2nd Admendment were to counter tyrannical governments.

Thomas Jefferson would disagree, in fact he did


Show me the quote

Thomas Jefferson
The 1st admendment is the protector of all the other rights the second is their gaurentee

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 5:48:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA?



Yes, it's probably because our arguments are so much better than those built on the hogwash that American gun-fans have been using for so long.

I hope that helps.


More likely it's just another case of Europeans think they are so much smarter than we provicial stupid Americansthat we can't function without their imparted wisdom.

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Profile   Post #: 372
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 5:56:07 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I have noticed that non-americans are quick to criticize how we do things in the states.



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Profile   Post #: 373
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 6:05:03 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		grins, I could have said, you shouldnt make it so easy for us...but that wouldnt be nice...

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Profile   Post #: 374
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 7:19:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

grins, I could have said, you shouldnt make it so easy for us...but that wouldnt be nice...

you did say it, see post on the pressumed supeority of Europeans (ledgenges in their own minds)

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Profile   Post #: 375
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 8:26:40 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Can anybody tell me why a thread about gun control in the USA is being so dominated by a bunch of people who aren't from the USA? Or why people who live under the protections and guarantees of the US Constitution are wasting a moment giving them the satisfaction of a response to their sideline heckling?

Sure, I can. I'm interested in their opinions because they represent a diversity of viewpoints. I personally value diversity and have little interest in hearing my own echo repeated over and over. Not only do I see a lot of value in their opinions precisely because they are outside opinions but on top of that I prefer to argue facts rather than secondary considerations like someone's country of origin.

In point of fact if I was suddenly made emperor of the US I'd want to charter some studies on violence in our culture and I'd absolutely want those studies conducted by outside universities. Ideally there'd be some very disparate cultures represented in those universities. Then maybe we could start untangling the actual root causes on this one and get past the evil guns.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 8:45:22 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Well, after all, the brits do have a right to criticize their former colonies. Kinda like parents and children.

And we did kick their asses twice, and saved their asses twice.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 377
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 8:58:46 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		They criticize the US and they came up with the brilliant idea to force you to get a TV license to watch tv..

Next they will come up with a sex tax.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 10:35:11 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Next they will come up with a sex tax.


They would if they could. But that path would eventually lead to revolution.

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Profile   Post #: 379
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/24/2012 10:57:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Next they will come up with a sex tax.


They would if they could. But that path would eventually lead to revolution.

Maybe a tax on thumbs?

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Profile   Post #: 380
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