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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 1:38:11 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.



We have a little thing called The Constitution that prevents the "round up the usual suspects commissioner" practices.

And it is precisely your constitution that is responsible for the gun-related deaths.
Think about it.

You have 34 gun deaths every single day in the US.
We had just 39 for THE WHOLE YEAR!!
You have about 20x the number of gun deaths per capita compared to us here.

You allow guns. We don't (as a general rule).
You don't allow your police to check and search known trouble-makers?? We do.



Well, we're not going to be rewriting the Constitution anytime soon, so...

Just to correct some facts, though -

According to the CDC, US Population = 3,591,917. Gun related homicide = 8775.
According to Huffington, UK Population = 62,641,000. Gun related homicide = 51.
Figures are for 2011.

As for our gangs being the same...are you sure about that? How did you make that conclusion? I think they would differ greatly, so I did some research on US gangs.

According to the National Gang Threat Assessment (NGTA), there are approximately 33,000 gangs in the US, accounting for an average of 48-90% of all violent crime, depending on jurisdiction. Mexican Drug Trafficking Organization (MDTO) has greatly expanded gangs and violence in a number of areas. There is a LOT of cross-border activities between US gangs and Mexico/Central America. These gangs are acquiring high powered, military type weapons via middle men and theft, often from military and law enforcement.

I'm guessing our gangs are nothing alike. I'm also guessing that removing firearms from our citizens will do next to nothing to curb the majority of our gun related homicides, which appear to stem from our gang activity. I believe the answer lies far deeper than that.

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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 2:14:00 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		I think our gangs would love to immitate those US gangs we see on our TV screens here.
Most gang members seem to have the same mentality type... be the big 'I am' with the guns and drugs and everything that seems to give them power.
The problem is, they can't do drive-by shootings or have a gun battle over some drugs den.
They can't because guns are just not that readily available here.

And, apparently, most of the guns found/collected/confiscated across the US/Mexican border in these gun battles originate from the US, not the other way round as some like to think.

And why don't you think that reducing the number of guns (not just specific types of guns) would do next to nothing in curbing gun-related homicide?
I think that is singularly the most common reason/sticking point that the pro and anti gun people cannot see reason or agree with each other.

The pro-gun people cannot see that greatly physically reducing the number of guns will help solve the problem - they only seem to think that throwing more guns into the arena will solve it. NRA's CEO (Wayne LaPierre) stated that "the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". So perhaps someone can explain to me that 34 gun deaths every day in the US are done by bad guys - where the fuck are ANY of the good guys to stop this happening - every single friggin day of the year, ad nauseum??
The anti-gun people feel that if the guns weren't so handy to get hold of, either by purchasing or stealing them, there just wouldn't be so many gun-related crimes at all, let alone these frequent mass shootings.


As for my facts, they came from our opposition leader (Ed Milliband) and from Michael Bloomberg's speech on gun crimes.
One has to assume, that being aired on international TV they would have done some research on the matter.
I know the BBC news that aired those points would certainly have done some checking on the figures.
Also, FWIW, Wiki isn't always a reliable source - and those figures you quoted are a year out of date.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 462
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 2:15:35 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		And the beat goes on.....utility workers shot at

A Hall County man was arrested early Wednesday and charged with firing a weapon at utility workers trying to restore power near his home, the Hall County Sheriff's Department reported in a news release.

Donald Josh Deal, 62, was arrested around 2 a.m. after negotiations with the sheriff's office SWAT team, Sheriff's Office Sgt. Stephen Wilbanks reported.

Deal was booked into the Hall County Jail charged with two counts of aggravated assault. Bond has not been set pending a court hearing.

Deputies responded to the 4200 block of Holland Drive off Brown's Bridge Road in Gainesville around midnight when Jackson EMC workers reported a man had fired two shots at them while they were working to restore power from downed trees on power lines.

The crew members said while they were assessing the power line problem outside of a home, the man stepped outside and began cursing and threatening them with a handgun before shots were fired. No one was injured. The utility workers left the area and called 911.

Deal would not come out of his home when ordered to do so by deputies, and the SWAT team was called. Commanders were able to negotiate his surrender without further incident.

The case remains under investigation, Wilbanks said.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 2:30:33 PM   
NuevaVida


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Status: offline 		I didn't get my numbers from wiki. I got them from CDC and Huffington, as I stated. Unfortunately I'm posting from my phone and currently unable to copy links. Wiki showed a breakdown of gun related deaths per country but not all countries were showing the same year, so I closed the page.

I think since the majority of our gun deaths are gang related, we need to deal with the gangs. I thought I had clarified that.

I never stated nor suggested that the guns came from Mexico.

I do not have the level of trust you do for televised news media, so I looked up sources online.



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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 464
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 3:08:09 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Also, quite a few of our known-to-be-trouble-making gangs are rounded up at regular intervals and are searched. Any weapons, including knives, are confiscated and they go through our judicial system.



We have a little thing called The Constitution that prevents the "round up the usual suspects commissioner" practices.

And it is precisely your constitution that is responsible for the gun-related deaths.
Think about it.

You have 34 gun deaths every single day in the US.
We had just 39 for THE WHOLE YEAR!!
You have about 20x the number of gun deaths per capita compared to us here.

You allow guns. We don't (as a general rule).
You don't allow your police to check and search known trouble-makers?? We do.




That's the difference in thinking. We don't "allow" guns. We don't "allow freedom of speech. We have an inherit right to them. They are not privileges granted by our government. The are rights we have that the government "whose very authority to exist is granted by the constitution" is duty bound to protect.

That is one of the reasons Muslims couldn't understand why Obama didn't prevent that preacher down in Florida from burning korans. To their mind their leader has the power to stop those things he does not like. And they find it hard to conceive of it being any different.

Over here I have the right to protect myself. I also have the right to tell the government to kiss my ass if I choose. All without being kidnaped and beaten until I fall in line.


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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 3:11:48 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Over here I have the right to protect myself. I also have the right to tell the government to kiss my ass if I choose. All without being kidnaped and beaten until I fall in line.

Try telling that to David Koresh.

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(in reply to blacksword404)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 3:36:55 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Over here I have the right to protect myself. I also have the right to tell the government to kiss my ass if I choose. All without being kidnaped and beaten until I fall in line.

Try telling that to David Koresh.


You don't really want to use him as an example do you?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

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Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 4:41:29 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

*blinks* I suppose you think Canadians are just like Americans too? Have you actually spent any time abroad... not travelling or visiting but actually living there?


Behind a rifle yes


the other side of that question is as valid how many non-Americans have actually lived here, I ask only to help evaluate their sugesstions


Laughable considering American input on the Middle East. Are you seriously suggesting people cant hold a viewpoint if they havent lived someplace ? If so, that would preclude almost all of us writing about anything.


you clearly missed the point, someone implied that Americans couldn't understand the european position unless we had lived there I was merely pointing out that this goes both ways

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 4:47:26 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Now lets see....
What would constitute 'known troublemakers'??

Those that are persistently caught doing the same old tricks time and again??
Maybe you could just call them dumb or plain stupid.
But more than likely, they are part of the same group of people that are always in the midst of trouble of some sort or another.
It may be a fight at a local pub, or someone getting mugged or picked on trying to walk home.
Or the local late-night shop getting hit with big shop-lifting sprees and they are always caught with the goods.
Could be any number of things. lol.
But our local cops know who they are and try to do something about it.
It would seem that in the US they just let them get away with that sort of nasty behaviour because the constitution doesn't allow the enforcement officers the legal ability to step in and inflict justice.

All I'm saying is that when the US bleats and wails about gun-related deaths, just like the NRA they want to blame anything but the gun.
I said it in another thread less than a week ago that it will happen again very soon after Newtown. It has. I rest my case.

during the week after Newton there were three copy cats all killed by armed citizens the case is made

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 4:52:25 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Now lets see....
What would constitute 'known troublemakers'??

Those that are persistently caught doing the same old tricks time and again??
Maybe you could just call them dumb or plain stupid.
But more than likely, they are part of the same group of people that are always in the midst of trouble of some sort or another.
It may be a fight at a local pub, or someone getting mugged or picked on trying to walk home.
Or the local late-night shop getting hit with big shop-lifting sprees and they are always caught with the goods.
Could be any number of things. lol.
But our local cops know who they are and try to do something about it.
It would seem that in the US they just let them get away with that sort of nasty behaviour because the constitution doesn't allow the enforcement officers the legal ability to step in and inflict justice.

All I'm saying is that when the US bleats and wails about gun-related deaths, just like the NRA they want to blame anything but the gun.
I said it in another thread less than a week ago that it will happen again very soon after Newtown. It has. I rest my case.

during the week after Newton there were three copy cats all killed by armed citizens the case is made


earlier in the week I was chastised for sarcatically commentingthat since theguy who ambushedthe fireman had used a hammer it wasn't murder seems the NY courts beat me too it they called it manslaughter after all if he had meant to kill her he would have used a gun

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 5:01:35 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Over here I have the right to protect myself. I also have the right to tell the government to kiss my ass if I choose. All without being kidnaped and beaten until I fall in line.

Try telling that to David Koresh.


The nutcase where the FBI shot and or burned most of them to deathe?

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 5:14:42 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Over here I have the right to protect myself. I also have the right to tell the government to kiss my ass if I choose. All without being kidnaped and beaten until I fall in line.

Try telling that to David Koresh.


The nutcase where the FBI shot and or burned most of them to deathe?

yes when the whole thng could have been done bloodlessly

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 5:25:48 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

during the week after Newton there were three copy cats all killed by armed citizens the case is made


I cant seem to find any links to those. Care to provide them?

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 6:21:18 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

He served 17 years for killing his grandmother with a hammer. Our system is flawed. Gun control laws aren't going to solve the problem. Dealing with criminals, gang bangers and the mentally ill more appropriately will do more to prevent these acts than new laws will. I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.




It seems to me keeping those who murder behind bars would be an easier fix than what ever it is we need to do concerning mental health. At least if they are behind bars they can't kill again.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 7:03:14 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

He served 17 years for killing his grandmother with a hammer. Our system is flawed. Gun control laws aren't going to solve the problem. Dealing with criminals, gang bangers and the mentally ill more appropriately will do more to prevent these acts than new laws will. I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.




It seems to me keeping those who murder behind bars would be an easier fix than what ever it is we need to do concerning mental health. At least if they are behind bars they can't kill again.


I'm guessing you also think drugs don't exist in jail either. And corrections officers don't have sex in prison?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to lovmuffin)
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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 8:49:08 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

He served 17 years for killing his grandmother with a hammer. Our system is flawed. Gun control laws aren't going to solve the problem. Dealing with criminals, gang bangers and the mentally ill more appropriately will do more to prevent these acts than new laws will. I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.




It seems to me keeping those who murder behind bars would be an easier fix than what ever it is we need to do concerning mental health. At least if they are behind bars they can't kill again.


I'm guessing you also think drugs don't exist in jail either. And corrections officers don't have sex in prison?




What does that all have to do with it ? If they're in prison regardless of what goes on they can't murder in polite society.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 12/26/2012 8:50:55 PM >

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 8:50:49 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin




What does that all have to do with it ? If their in prison regardless of what goes on they can't murder in polite society.

Only the poor fuckers on the staff.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 9:14:22 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

He served 17 years for killing his grandmother with a hammer. Our system is flawed. Gun control laws aren't going to solve the problem. Dealing with criminals, gang bangers and the mentally ill more appropriately will do more to prevent these acts than new laws will. I believe more laws will simply create a bigger black market for firearms, but won't stop the problem. They will only create more laws to break.




It seems to me keeping those who murder behind bars would be an easier fix than what ever it is we need to do concerning mental health. At least if they are behind bars they can't kill again.

Or maybe we can help the mentally ill BEFORE they kill.

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RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 9:30:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Or maybe we can help the mentally ill BEFORE they kill.

Or maybe they'll at least settle for killing their therapist.

K.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 479
RE: All things gun control go here - 12/26/2012 10:23:34 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Or maybe we can help the mentally ill BEFORE they kill.

Or maybe they'll at least settle for killing their therapist.

K.

Ouch!

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Profile   Post #: 480
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