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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 12/31/2012 7:20:01 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But surely, from your own admission, speculation and study is better to know the subject than to use ostrich syndrome and bury your head in the sand??


I think the point is that, arguably, the DNA research *is itself* an example of that ostrich syndrome. Many people have little difficulty in seeing what the problem is, but they just do not want to accept the solution. For me, this DNA research is a bit like the ostrich who, on seeing a truck hurtling towards him, thinks, 'Oh dear, how can I deal with this problem? Perhaps the solution is buried under the sand. I should stick my head in the ground to try to find it. Yes, that must be the right strategy!'

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 12/31/2012 8:48:21 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


Just because we don't understand it (yet) doesn't mean we won't understand it in the future.
If we just bury our heads, as you appear to advocate, we would never know anything.



There is a difference between realistic research based on an hypothesis and ridiculous research based on a publicity stunt and the idea of studying Lanza's genes has nothing to do with research at all. The fact is there is no way of studying behaviour through an individual's genes. Not at this present time at least and I suspect in the foreseeable future. It has nothing to do with having ones head in the sand, it is about whether you believe in a publicity stunt or not and the proposal of studying Lanza's genes is a publicity stunt and a pornographic one at that.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 12/31/2012 8:55:59 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But surely, from your own admission, speculation and study is better to know the subject than to use ostrich syndrome and bury your head in the sand??


I think the point is that, arguably, the DNA research *is itself* an example of that ostrich syndrome. Many people have little difficulty in seeing what the problem is, but they just do not want to accept the solution. For me, this DNA research is a bit like the ostrich who, on seeing a truck hurtling towards him, thinks, 'Oh dear, how can I deal with this problem? Perhaps the solution is buried under the sand. I should stick my head in the ground to try to find it. Yes, that must be the right strategy!'


Studying Lanza's genes has nothing to do with science, it is to do with publicity and pornograhy. It just isn't possible to get any meaningful information out of an specific individual's genes in regard to that individual's behaviour. To go along with this charade is to denigrate science.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 12/31/2012 10:26:21 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Another social artifact correlated with anti-depressant use might be the some of the 30K suicides each year in the US alone.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think Kirata gave you a good answer in #61. If you read the article carefully you will find this comment:

"By studying genetic abnormalities we can learn more about conditions better and who is at risk and what might be dramatic treatments," Beaudet said, adding if the gene abnormality is defined the "treatment to stop" other mass shootings or "decrease the risk is much approved."

Thanks for the reference. I posted that because I am growing suspicious of anti-depressants as a recurring theme in these killings. It is possible that certain people should not be treated with these classes of drugs, and if that's the case then a genetic marker that allows us to spot them would certainly be welcome.

K.



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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 1:13:52 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

So it is likely that people on anti-depressants do not become sad when they murder someone.


More like people who are depressed are used to a higher level of mental pain than most, and tend to have flatter affect or overall negative affect. SSRIs have negligible effect on depression beyond placebo, and inadequate efficacy translates into a longer duration of depression. Untreated depression has a significant risk of suicide, and it seems to be increasingly popular to take down a few others in the process of committing suicide.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 7:17:48 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Your position and the position of Connecticut University is dishonest because wanting to research Lanza's DNA is nothing to do with learning about genetics but about using science as an excuse for sensationalist porn

Clearly, the most bizarre comment I have ever seen on these Boards.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 7:23:16 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Studying Lanza's genes has nothing to do with science, it is to do with publicity and pornograhy. It just isn't possible to get any meaningful information out of an specific individual's genes in regard to that individual's behaviour. To go along with this charade is to denigrate science.

You continue to ignore the possibility of building a meaningful data base from similar cases as was suggested in the article.

Denigrate science? Science is not some holy grail. It is only our way of searching for best fit models of reality. Only a cello player could share your views on science.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 7:35:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Read it again. It is involved with straight forward physiology.What you are doing is similar to comparing a broken leg to bone cancer.

Genes are only involved with physiology? Imagine that! Did you expect some spiritual connection? This is the second most bizarre remark I have seen on these boards.

Do you believe thinking and the conscious mind do not have a bases in physiology? That all those synapsis, dendrites, chemicals, and electric waves are for naught? Oy, its so busy up there. Let's not try to understand it.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 7:47:48 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I think Kirata gave you a good answer in #61. If you read the article carefully you will find this comment:

"By studying genetic abnormalities we can learn more about conditions better and who is at risk and what might be dramatic treatments," Beaudet said, adding if the gene abnormality is defined the "treatment to stop" other mass shootings or "decrease the risk is much approved."

Thanks for the reference. I posted that because I am growing suspicious of anti-depressants as a recurring theme in these killings. It is possible that certain people should not be treated with these classes of drugs, and if that's the case then a genetic marker that allows us to spot them would certainly be welcome.

K.

It may be that they are mis-diagnosed. It is difficult to unweave the numerous symptoms.

I found this of interest:

Estimates of heritability vary because of the difficulty in separating the effects of genetics and the environment.[24] The greatest risk for developing schizophrenia is having a first-degree relative with the disease (risk is 6.5%); more than 40% of monozygotic twins of those with schizophrenia are also affected.[3] It is likely that many genes are involved, each of small effect and unknown transmission and expression.[3] Many possible candidates have been proposed, including specific copy number variations, NOTCH4, and histone protein loci.[25] A number of genome-wide associations such as zinc finger protein 804A have also been linked.[26] There appears to be significant overlap in the genetics of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.[27]

SOURCE

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 8:22:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Read it again. It is involved with straight forward physiology.What you are doing is similar to comparing a broken leg to bone cancer.

Genes are only involved with physiology? Imagine that! Did you expect some spiritual connection? This is the second most bizarre remark I have seen on these boards.

Do you believe thinking and the conscious mind do not have a bases in physiology? That all those synapsis, dendrites, chemicals, and electric waves are for naught? Oy, its so busy up there. Let's not try to understand it.


I have no doubt the conscious mind has a biological base but we are dealing with software as oposed to hardware and there in lies the probem. We all might think we know what the mind is but no one understands it enough to explain how it works, we are scratching around in the dark. Genes aren't the mind anymore that computer chips are a computer for a simplistic analogy.

Consider the rigor necessary in the scientific method of research, then consider what has been proposed on this thread. That alone should tell you the proposal is more of a stunt than wanting genuine research.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/1/2013 8:23:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 10:09:34 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		+1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

So it is likely that people on anti-depressants do not become sad when they murder someone.


More like people who are depressed are used to a higher level of mental pain than most, and tend to have flatter affect or overall negative affect. SSRIs have negligible effect on depression beyond placebo, and inadequate efficacy translates into a longer duration of depression. Untreated depression has a significant risk of suicide, and it seems to be increasingly popular to take down a few others in the process of committing suicide.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 1:15:35 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

vincentML: Genes are only involved with physiology? Imagine that! Did you expect some spiritual connection? This is the second most bizarre remark I have seen on these boards.

Do you believe thinking and the conscious mind do not have a bases in physiology? That all those synapsis, dendrites, chemicals, and electric waves are for naught? Oy, its so busy up there. Let's not try to understand it.


quote:

meatcleaver: I have no doubt the conscious mind has a biological base but we are dealing with software as oposed to hardware and there in lies the probem. We all might think we know what the mind is but no one understands it enough to explain how it works, we are scratching around in the dark. Genes aren't the mind anymore that computer chips are a computer for a simplistic analogy.

So, by your analogy the program will work even if the computer chip is defective? I don't think so. The program is etched into the chip, or stored and transferred from a disc to chip memory.

Your analogy fails for living systems because the mental activities are processes generated by the brain, not simply stored in it. I never said genes were the computer chips. You have a misconception about genes. Genes do not store phenotype. They store information in their morphology. Genes are the templates that produce the proteins that construct and regulate the brain. The mind is the product of the brain's function, not of the function of genes. Gene mutations can produced a dysfunctional brain process. Hence dysfunctional mind.

Additionally, you are espousing a dualism that has no empirical foundation of which I am aware.

quote:

meatcleaver: Consider the rigor necessary in the scientific method of research, then consider what has been proposed on this thread. That alone should tell you the proposal is more of a stunt than wanting genuine research.

I tried to explain this before. The scientific method is rigorous only for those who are unable to think outside the box. It has its purpose for examining known unkowns [and for gaining tenure track at University.] The scientific method is acceptable within an established paradigm but it will not lead necessarily to a new paradigm. The scientific method relies upon falsification of hypothesis. It tells us what is NOT acceptable.

New insights result from serendipity, luck, and tinkering about. However much an apocryphal tale it may be it was the falling apple that Newton claimed supplied him the insight that the moon was falling over the edge of the Earth, and led him to his universal laws of gravity. Probably bullshit by Sir Isaac but his work was not the outcome of hypothesis testing. Hypothesis testing is for the purpose of confirming or disconfirming observations. Einstein's insight that mass creates a gravitational disturbance in space/time was confirmed by a prediction observed during a solar eclipse. Let's keep the scientific method in proper perspective.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/1/2013 1:29:34 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/1/2013 2:52:59 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Your analogy fails for living systems because the mental activities are processes generated by the brain, not simply stored in it. I never said genes were the computer chips. You have a misconception about genes. Genes do not store phenotype. They store information in their morphology. Genes are the templates that produce the proteins that construct and regulate the brain. The mind is the product of the brain's function, not of the function of genes. Gene mutations can produced a dysfunctional brain process. Hence dysfunctional mind.

Additionally, you are espousing a dualism that has no empirical foundation of which I am aware.



I am not espousing dualism but since consciousness has yet to be explained and there is no understanding of the connection between genetics and consciousness, I think I am right when I say we don't know enough to take one particlar person and find something supposedly uniquely wrong with that person when we don't even know what the norm is, if there is a norm in the first place.

If you can say the mind is a function of the brain and not a function of the genes, why do you think researching genes will reveal a problem in the mind? You really just want the last word and score the last point because now you are just regurgitating nonsense. There is obviously a relationship between the brain, mind, genes, chemical balance, environment and experience etc etc etc there is a relationship between everything which means there are too many variables to expect to pin point any specific thing that triggered Lanza's behaviour. Even if all these relationships were understood, the idea of finding a dysfunctional gene that controls behaviour is the stuff of science fiction, not real science.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
New insights result from serendipity, luck, and tinkering about. However much an apocryphal tale it may be it was the falling apple that Newton claimed supplied him the insight that the moon was falling over the edge of the Earth, and led him to his universal laws of gravity. Probably bullshit by Sir Isaac but his work was not the outcome of hypothesis testing. Hypothesis testing is for the purpose of confirming or disconfirming observations. Einstein's insight that mass creates a gravitational disturbance in space/time was confirmed by a prediction observed during a solar eclipse. Let's keep the scientific method in proper perspective.


Newton was dealing in theory, not practical applications of knowledge, surely you can see the difference. Looking for at Lanza's genes for a fault or mutation or malfunction is a practical problem, not a theorhetical one and its probably a dumb idea in the first place because without a full understanding of the relationship between mind, consciousness, genes and the rest etc etc because Lanza's behaviour might have had nothing to do with any problem with genes, his motivation for what he did might just be driven through experience. The proposal is a stunt and nothing to do with real science.

You can have the last word.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/1/2013 2:56:56 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 7:13:09 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

If you can say the mind is a function of the brain and not a function of the genes, why do you think researching genes will reveal a problem in the mind?

If there is a problem with the engineering it seems reasonable to see if there is a flaw in the blueprints.

quote:

Newton was dealing in theory, not practical applications of knowledge, surely you can see the difference.

You can say this with a straight face about the man who laid the foundation for classical mechanics, built the first practical reflecting telescope, and invented calculus? Seriously?

quote:

You really just want the last word and score the last point because now you are just regurgitating nonsense.

pffft! Don't be a silly ass. This is not a contest. Just a discussion between strangers. You are not so important to me.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/2/2013 7:32:07 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 8:18:20 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Adam Lanza was reported to have autism spectrum disorders with Asperger’s syndrome and was known to have periods of anger. What cause autism is not known, for awhile some claimed it was the 3 mixed shoots children get, however that has not been proven. For many years some believed a gentic defect caused a person to commit crime, the most well know recent one was the YY chrosome. Anti depressent have some link to violent behavior (the person was taking them) but nothing solid in test the FDA still has Prozac and many other still on the approved list. Getting back to Asperger's syndrome, there are two studies that indicate those with it are no more violent then any other group. All this could be just pure research but finding the root causes for autism maybe helpful.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 8:54:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Newton was dealing in theory, not practical applications of knowledge, surely you can see the difference.



You can say this with a straight face about the man who laid the foundation for classical mechanics, built the first practical reflecting telescope, and invented calculus? Seriously?


Newton was also an alchemist, delved in magic, believed in divine intervention and predicted the world will end in 2060. He might have created the foundation for classic mechanics but he also thought god would have to intervene to reform the system. While he was a hugely important figure in physics he sort of illustrates even geniuses can't pull miracle rabbits out of the hat.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/2/2013 8:55:52 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 9:05:41 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Genetic defects don't cause crime, in any meaningful sense.

Spree killings aren't exactly ordinary crimes, though.

Not sure why you'd bring ASD into it, Nosathro.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 9:16:45 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But surely, from your own admission, speculation and study is better to know the subject than to use ostrich syndrome and bury your head in the sand??


I think the point is that, arguably, the DNA research *is itself* an example of that ostrich syndrome. Many people have little difficulty in seeing what the problem is, but they just do not want to accept the solution. For me, this DNA research is a bit like the ostrich who, on seeing a truck hurtling towards him, thinks, 'Oh dear, how can I deal with this problem? Perhaps the solution is buried under the sand. I should stick my head in the ground to try to find it. Yes, that must be the right strategy!'


Studying Lanza's genes has nothing to do with science, it is to do with publicity and pornograhy. It just isn't possible to get any meaningful information out of an specific individual's genes in regard to that individual's behaviour. To go along with this charade is to denigrate science.


Please explain what studying someones genes has to do with pornography?

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 9:31:51 AM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Genetic defects don't cause crime, in any meaningful sense.

Spree killings aren't exactly ordinary crimes, though.

Not sure why you'd bring ASD into it, Nosathro.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



There are those who do believe that there is a gentic disposition to crime....it has been reported that Adam Lanza did have ASD, the reports I stated indicated that ASD is not an indicator to criminal activity.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 12:00:59 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Please explain what studying someones genes has to do with pornography?


Because there is nothing that could be found out from Lanza's genes that could possibly have anything to do with the crime he commited, the suggestion that you could is what you would expect from Fox News sensalionalism than a serious university. The idea is pornographic because it is about getting off on the misery of others.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/2/2013 12:01:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 100
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