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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 12:32:47 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Please explain what studying someones genes has to do with pornography?


Because there is nothing that could be found out from Lanza's genes that could possibly have anything to do with the crime he commited,

How do you know that without looking?
That's like if someone said "there's nothing that can be found out about the cosmos by looking at it with magnifying optics".

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 1:07:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Newton was dealing in theory, not practical applications of knowledge, surely you can see the difference.



You can say this with a straight face about the man who laid the foundation for classical mechanics, built the first practical reflecting telescope, and invented calculus? Seriously?


Newton was also an alchemist, delved in magic, believed in divine intervention and predicted the world will end in 2060. He might have created the foundation for classic mechanics but he also thought god would have to intervene to reform the system. While he was a hugely important figure in physics he sort of illustrates even geniuses can't pull miracle rabbits out of the hat.

Well yeh. I agree. By our standards he was a bit of an eccentric. As for being an alchemist . . . let's recall that he died before the births of Priestley, Cavandish, and Lavoisier. So everyone was an alchemist in the 17th C. But we shouldn't sell short the search to convert base metals into gold because the alchemists did pioneer techniques, lab tools/retorts, various acids and such in their secret journals.

You mean the world is NOT due to end in 2060!? Crap. Disappointed again

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 1:09:11 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

How do you know that without looking?
That's like if someone said "there's nothing that can be found out about the cosmos by looking at it with magnifying optics".


Because you have to know what you are looking for and since no geneticist of credit reckons they fully understand how genes work in anything but more than a general way the idea a malfunctioning gene or mutant gene or whatever, could be found in a specific person prompting a specific behaviour is ridiculious, especially when genes don't appear to have a direct influence on behaviour but work in concert with experience and environment etc.etc. Think about it, if genetics was that easy, the billions that have been spent on disorders that are known to be genetic in origin would be a walk in the park. Cancers would have been cured long ago. Considering that, consider the idea that somehow Connecticut university is going to find a specific gene in a specific person that caused a specific behaviour pattern is laughable.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 1:18:40 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

How do you know that without looking?
That's like if someone said "there's nothing that can be found out about the cosmos by looking at it with magnifying optics".


Because you have to know what you are looking for and since no geneticist of credit reckons they fully understand how genes work in anything but more than a general way the idea a malfunctioning gene or mutant gene or whatever, could be found in a specific person prompting a specific behaviour is ridiculious, especially when genes don't appear to have a direct influence on behaviour but work in concert with experience and environment etc.etc. Think about it, if genetics was that easy, the billions that have been spent on disorders that are known to be genetic in origin would be a walk in the park. Cancers would have been cured long ago. Considering that, consider the idea that somehow Connecticut university is going to find a specific gene in a specific person that caused a specific behaviour pattern is laughable.

sorry but the argument that "Because you have to know what you are looking for" doesn't wash.
Galileo didn't know what he was looking for.
Pasteur didn't know what he was looking for.
Copernicus didn't know what he was looking for.
They all looked anyway.

Half of more of the great discoveries that mankind has made have been either by people who didn't know what they were looking for or people who were looking for something that wasn't what they found.
If the early homonids had your attitude, we would still be roaming the savannahs of the Afar Triangle and trying our best not to be a leopard's next meal.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 1:25:15 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

How do you know that without looking?
That's like if someone said "there's nothing that can be found out about the cosmos by looking at it with magnifying optics".


Because you have to know what you are looking for and since no geneticist of credit reckons they fully understand how genes work in anything but more than a general way the idea a malfunctioning gene or mutant gene or whatever, could be found in a specific person prompting a specific behaviour is ridiculious, especially when genes don't appear to have a direct influence on behaviour but work in concert with experience and environment etc.etc. Think about it, if genetics was that easy, the billions that have been spent on disorders that are known to be genetic in origin would be a walk in the park. Cancers would have been cured long ago. Considering that, consider the idea that somehow Connecticut university is going to find a specific gene in a specific person that caused a specific behaviour pattern is laughable.

sorry but the argument that "Because you have to know what you are looking for" doesn't wash.
Galileo didn't know what he was looking for.
Pasteur didn't know what he was looking for.
Copernicus didn't know what he was looking for.
They all looked anyway.

Half of more of the great discoveries that mankind has made have been either by people who didn't know what they were looking for or people who were looking for something that wasn't what they found.
If the early homonids had your attitude, we would still be roaming the savannahs of the Afar Triangle and trying our best not to be a leopard's next meal.

We don't know what we don't know but we know there is more to know.

Anyway, the article cited in the OP and the one I cited on autism challenge meatcleaver's position of certitude.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 1:32:03 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


We don't know what we don't know but we know there is more to know.

Anyway, the article cited in the OP and the one I cited on autism challenge meatcleaver's position of certitude.

THIS. ^^^^

That's why we keep looking. Who knows what we'll find?

Hell, Columbus was looking for a shortcut to China and found 2 continents in his way. (I know, others were here first but he started the actual colonization for better or worse).

Sutter set up a sawmill and found gold.

Cook was cruising and wrecked on an uncharted reef and found Australia.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 2:39:00 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		A brief browse through Genetics For Dummies would illuminate you as to why Connecticut's proposal is a publicity stunt and that there is no real science behind it.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 2:41:02 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hell, Columbus was looking for a shortcut to China and found 2 continents in his way. (I know, others were here first but he started the actual colonization for better or worse).

Sutter set up a sawmill and found gold.

Cook was cruising and wrecked on an uncharted reef and found Australia.


And a modicum of intelligence would tell you what nonsensical analogies they are but since you are making them, they do illuminate why you have no idea why the Connecticut proposal is a stunt.

BTW Since the context of Lanza's behaviour is given a human construct, there cannot be a gene governing that behaviour even if genes were directly responsible for behaviour which evidence suggests they aren't. Though it does seem every couple of years a new Dr Mengeli comes along promoting genetic determinism.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/2/2013 2:55:15 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/2/2013 5:02:56 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hell, Columbus was looking for a shortcut to China and found 2 continents in his way. (I know, others were here first but he started the actual colonization for better or worse).

Sutter set up a sawmill and found gold.

Cook was cruising and wrecked on an uncharted reef and found Australia.


And a modicum of intelligence would tell you what nonsensical analogies they are but since you are making them, they do illuminate why you have no idea why the Connecticut proposal is a stunt.

BTW Since the context of Lanza's behaviour is given a human construct, there cannot be a gene governing that behaviour even if genes were directly responsible for behaviour which evidence suggests they aren't. Though it does seem every couple of years a new Dr Mengeli comes along promoting genetic determinism.

You say "there cannot be a gene governing that behaviour even if genes were directly responsible for behaviour"
How do you know that unless you look?
Science never proves anything. It only disproves all possible alternatives.
I'll grant that it's unlikely that they will find an anomaly but what if?
Your logic is a combination of sticking your head in the sand and chanting LALALALALA.
How do you know there are no maple trees on the far side of a mountain unless you look?

You say my analogies are nonsensical. How?

I can say the sun is 50 miles away all day long but that doesn't make it true.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/2/2013 5:04:17 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 7:08:57 AM   
vincentML


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There are three types of genes involved in the various cancers that plague mankind. Oncogenes are mutated forms of healthy genes that cause excess cell division. Tumor suppressor genes are normal genes that slow down cell division and repair DNA. Cancer may result when they do not work right. Mutations from proto-oncogenes to oncogenes and tumor suppressor genes can be inherited.

The most common gene mutations that cause cancer are sporadic genes. These are not inherited. They are mutations that occur during our lifetime and may be the result of environmental interactions. In some cases there are no obvious causes. More gene mutations build up as we get older so there is an increasing risk of cancer.

An identical twin of a schizophrenic will have a 40% to 50% chance of suffering the same illness even if reared apart. Several genes have been implicated in schizophrenia and bipolar disorder (which have overlapping symptoms)

Schizophrenia most often is expressed early in life in males. Hardly ever females. Spree killers are never females, it seems.

Additionally, an over production of a specific brain protein has been identified in autistic children related to a particular gene.

And by the way:

“So, if schizophrenia is genetic, and we know the location in the brain where the first problems arise, can't we nail down the gene? In the last 5 years we've developed the capability to sequence genomes and check out genetic polymorphisms (differences in genes between one person and another) both rapidly and cheaply. This has enabled us to do a brute force hack of the genome, looking at the genes of many families and finding those genes that are common to families with schizophrenia and are absent in families without schizophrenia. I wrote about a similar study done for migraines a while back. (SNIP)

The great thing about the brute force hack genetic studies is that if you have a computer, thousands of data points, and some grad students, you can just as easily look for correlations of not only 1, but 2 or 3 or 4 genetic polymorphisms. And when the schizophrenia researchers did that with the various genes associated with the ErbB4 signaling pathway, they hit the jackpot. All these genes interact with each other, like links in a chain. Break one link, and the brain can compensate. But break two links (so have two unfortunate genetic polymorphisms in this pathway), and your signaling becomes more inefficient. Your risk of schizophrenia goes up 8-fold. Break three links in the chain, and the risk for schizophrenia goes up 27-fold.

I'm using schizophrenia as an example - and many of the same genes and a severe inefficiency of the prefrontal cortical network are implicated in autism, by the way. Autism is likely to be, in a sense, a variant of schizophrenia that strikes much earlier in life. A similar story (but in different areas of the brain and with different specific signaling pathways) can be told for anxiety, depression, ADHD…”

SOURCE

Mental illness, like cancer, is quite a complex problem. Should we give up the genetic research because of the complexity of the problem? I don’t think so.

The following is from the website of NIMH ~ the National Institute of Mental Health:

Overview
This program supports research on the identification, localization and function of genes and other genomic elements that produce susceptibility to mental disorders (including autism and autism spectrum disorders, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, bipolar disorder or other related mood disorders, recurrent early-onset depression and other depressive disorders, eating disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder or other anxiety disorders, panic disorder, schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders, personality disorders, Tourette syndrome and Alzheimer's disease).

Areas of Emphasis
• Whole genome approaches
• Candidate gene approaches
• Epigenetic and other regulatory mechanisms
• Genetic systems approaches

Some here would have us believe that the University of Connecticut is a “pornographic” outlier in the study of the genetics of mental illness. Such nonsense. These accusations have been made in this thread without a shred of support, and amount to nothing more than the poster throwing a tantrum based on his ignorance of the research.




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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 8:58:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		So your point is? Ask yourself why the medical profession hasn't nailed down schitozphrenia if they know so much about it but dose up patients with drugs to prevent patients experiencing symptoms rather than curing partients. The fact is they have deduced genetic influence but can't predict it. Apart from that you don't need to know anything about genes to know schitzophrenia can be and often is, inherited, it was known decades ago. In fact it was known when I first set foot in a psychiatric hospital 40 myears ago.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Schizophrenia most often is expressed early in life in males. Hardly ever females. Spree killers are never females, it seems.


So you are saying schizophrenics are mass murderers? if so why aren't there mass murders happening all over the world, especially in countries which don't have the medication to dope schizophrenic patients? Basically the best information you will find use provisos such as implicated, appears, may, could etc etc.

No one said we should give up research, the point is that studying Lanza's genes specifically has nothing to do with research but sensationalism and a pornographic stunt because they will not find anything to answer the question why this specific person commited this specific act simply because there is not a gene for mass murder.

None of this has anything to do with genetic influence on behaviour in regard to this discussion, you have just collected together a lot of random information about genes full of provisos and that is because no one has proved knowing information in terms of clinical testing is valuable to the patient or understanding the subject which is why there is not a conveyor belt of cures and diagnosis. What you get is lay peopel saying it is genes or publicists and no doubt educational establishments chasing funding, which is probably Connecticut University's motive.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/3/2013 9:02:12 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 11:02:46 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

So you are saying schizophrenics are mass murderers?

I never said that. Spree murderers may have a genetic malfunction at the root of their behavior. Big difference.

quote:

The fact is they have deduced genetic influence but can't predict it. Apart from that you don't need to know anything about genes to know schitzophrenia can be and often is, inherited, it was known decades ago.

Now you admit there is genetic influence, something you were reluctant to even consider before because it was all too complicated. If you read the blog article carefully you will see the potential for prediction is becoming more probable. You obviously knew nothing about new developments in genetic research. You are still unwilling to concede that knowing the genes and the malfunctioning pathways can possibly lead to better interventions at a younger age. You should give that some thought.

You bring nothing to this discussion but unsupported negative opinions. No matter what research is presented to you, your reply is a rejection justified only by your own conceit. I am through having a dialogue with you. To continue would be pointless and a waste of time.

ciao

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 11:04:42 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		BTW Schizophrenics are far more likely to self harm and commit suicide than harm anyone else. To suggest schizophrenic sufferers hold more of a danger to innoent people than so called sane people is simply to pander to ignorance and prejudice.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 11:14:36 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		If the genetic tests confirm he is human, then there is your problem. Humans rarely need a reason to kill

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 11:35:11 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

BTW Schizophrenics are far more likely to self harm and commit suicide than harm anyone else. To suggest schizophrenic sufferers hold more of a danger to innoent people than so called sane people is simply to pander to ignorance and prejudice.

They are more likely to self harm than harm others BUT they have been documented to hold more danger to so-called sane people than your average person.

http://sederynioski.blogspot.com/2011/05/schizophrenia-in-serial-killers.html

"The most common mental disorder found in serial killers is schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a brain disorder that “distorts the way a person thinks, acts, expresses emotions, perceives reality and, relates to others. Schizophrenia is a psychosis in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined”

"Richard Chase is the best-known example of a serial killer with schizophrenia. Chase murdered six people between 1977 and 1978"

http://www.oxbridgegraduates.com/essays/psychology/schizophrenic-serial-killers.php

"An American serial killer and arsonist, David Richard Berkowitz whose crimes terrorized New York City from July 1976 until his arrest in August 1977 also known as Son of Sam and the 44. Caliber Killer said, "I didn't want to hurt them; I only wanted to kill them." Like David Berkowitz, all of the other serial killers think in unique ways. This paper will be about characteristics, different phases of schizophrenic serial killers, and the correlation between schizophrenia and serial killers."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1158908/Schizophrenic-serial-killer-murdered-people-attack-inspired-horror-film-failed-NHS.html

Harmless lads and lassies they are.



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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 12:29:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

They are more likely to self harm than harm others BUT they have been documented to hold more danger to so-called sane people than your average person.

http://sederynioski.blogspot.com/2011/05/schizophrenia-in-serial-killers.html


This is an apallingly ignorant blog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"The most common mental disorder found in serial killers is schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a brain disorder that “distorts the way a person thinks, acts, expresses emotions, perceives reality and, relates to others. Schizophrenia is a psychosis in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined”

"Richard Chase is the best-known example of a serial killer with schizophrenia. Chase murdered six people between 1977 and 1978"


Serial killers usually have two legs, two arms and a head too so your point is?

And your best known schizophrenic serial killer took a year to kill six people rather than one morning. So he was schizophrenic, why aren't all the other schizophrenic sufferers not serial killers? That is something you can't answer so there must be something else other than schizophrenia. No?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
http://www.oxbridgegraduates.com/essays/psychology/schizophrenic-serial-killers.php



Having just read that site I doubt there is one Oxford or Cambridge graduate writing on it despite its name. Such is the rivalry of the two universities I doubt the veracity of that site and it is apallingly written too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"An American serial killer and arsonist, David Richard Berkowitz whose crimes terrorized New York City from July 1976 until his arrest in August 1977 also known as Son of Sam and the 44. Caliber Killer said, "I didn't want to hurt them; I only wanted to kill them." Like David Berkowitz, all of the other serial killers think in unique ways. This paper will be about characteristics, different phases of schizophrenic serial killers, and the correlation between schizophrenia and serial killers."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1158908/Schizophrenic-serial-killer-murdered-people-attack-inspired-horror-film-failed-NHS.html

Harmless lads and lassies they are.



I would trust Meine Kampf or Moa's Red book before I would trust the Daily Mail in anything. Research has shown a very small increase in violence amongst schizophrenics at the extreme than in mainstream society but so small that the findings could be challanged.

If the overwhelming vast majority of people with schizophrenia are not violent to other people even without medication, then a murderer having schizophrenia means that the schizophrenia is probably not the cause or the main cause of the person's actions.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/3/2013 12:31:36 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 12:31:33 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

They are more likely to self harm than harm others BUT they have been documented to hold more danger to so-called sane people than your average person.

http://sederynioski.blogspot.com/2011/05/schizophrenia-in-serial-killers.html


This is an apallingly ignorant blog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"The most common mental disorder found in serial killers is schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a brain disorder that “distorts the way a person thinks, acts, expresses emotions, perceives reality and, relates to others. Schizophrenia is a psychosis in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined”

"Richard Chase is the best-known example of a serial killer with schizophrenia. Chase murdered six people between 1977 and 1978"
[/quotes]

Serial killers usually have two legs, two arms and a head too so your point is?

And your best known schizophrenic serial killer took a year to kill six people rather than one morning. So he was schizophrenic, why aren't all the other schizophrenic sufferers not serial killers? That is something you can't answer so there must be something else other than schizophrenia. No?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
http://www.oxbridgegraduates.com/essays/psychology/schizophrenic-serial-killers.php



Having just read that site I doubt there is one Oxford or Cambridge graduate writing on it despite its name. Such is the rivalry of the two universities I doubt the veracity of that site and it is apallingly written too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"An American serial killer and arsonist, David Richard Berkowitz whose crimes terrorized New York City from July 1976 until his arrest in August 1977 also known as Son of Sam and the 44. Caliber Killer said, "I didn't want to hurt them; I only wanted to kill them." Like David Berkowitz, all of the other serial killers think in unique ways. This paper will be about characteristics, different phases of schizophrenic serial killers, and the correlation between schizophrenia and serial killers."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1158908/Schizophrenic-serial-killer-murdered-people-attack-inspired-horror-film-failed-NHS.html

Harmless lads and lassies they are.



I would trust Meine Kampf or Moa's Red book before I would trust the Daily Mail in anything. Research has shown a very small increase in violence amongst schizophrenics at the extreme than in mainstream society but so small that the findings could be challanged.

If the overwhelming vast majority of people with schizophrenia are not violent to other people even without medication, then a murderer having schizophrenia means that the schizophrenia is probably not the cause or the main cause of the person's actions.

Are you arguing with the facts or just talking out your ass?

FACT. Several serial killers have been Schizophrenics.
FACT. Your claim that schizophrenics are no more dangerous by and large than so-called 'normal people' is bullshit.

Either attack the FACTS, not the source, or go play with the uneducated.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/3/2013 12:33:39 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 12:38:53 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


Are you arguing with the facts or just talking out your ass?

FACT. Several serial killers have been Schizophrenics.
FACT. Your claim that schizophrenics are no more cangerous by and large than so-called 'normal people' is bullshit.


FACT: ALL serial killers have heads!
FACT: ALL serial killers have an arse holes too!
FACT: You can't explain why all schizophrenic sufferers aren't serial killers if schizophrenia is the cause of a serial killer's actions. Until you can explain that, you are just spreading ignorance and prejudice. What you are doing to schizophrenic sufferers is the same as a racist pointing to a black person adn saying he must be a killer, his skin is black.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 12:48:42 PM   
meatcleaver


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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If the genetic tests confirm he is human, then there is your problem. Humans rarely need a reason to kill


One of the more sensible things said on this thread.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/3/2013 12:59:45 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


Are you arguing with the facts or just talking out your ass?

FACT. Several serial killers have been Schizophrenics.
FACT. Your claim that schizophrenics are no more cangerous by and large than so-called 'normal people' is bullshit.


FACT: ALL serial killers have heads!
FACT: ALL serial killers have an arse holes too!
FACT: You can't explain why all schizophrenic sufferers aren't serial killers if schizophrenia is the cause of a serial killer's actions. Until you can explain that, you are just spreading ignorance and prejudice. What you are doing to schizophrenic sufferers is the same as a racist pointing to a black person adn saying he must be a killer, his skin is black.

I didn't claim that all schizophrenics were serial killers. Please go back to 10th grade and take a class in logic.
I did say that MANY knows serial killers have been schizophrenic. As schizophrenia is relatively rare, this DIRECTLY refutes your assertion of " To suggest schizophrenic sufferers hold more of a danger to innocent people than so called sane people is simply to pander to ignorance and prejudice."
There are many manifestations and degrees of schizophrenia.

I mean, this statement "And your best known schizophrenic serial killer took a year to kill six people rather than one morning." indicates that you don't even know what a serial killer is.

Mass murder is all in one fell swoop. Serial killings are 3 or more killings with a 'cooling off period' between.
Please get an education so you might some day know what you're talking about.


< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/3/2013 1:00:07 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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