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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 8:10:52 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

That is correct. Scientists have only scratched the surface.
It appears, though, that you want them to stop scratching in an attempt to find out why this messed up kid killed all those people.
Why do I say he was messed up?
Welllllllll, normal people just don't commit mass murder.
Ergo, something was wrong with him. What was wrong? We just don't know but we owe it to future generations to try to find out.


Genes don't control personality (they are one influencing factor) which is why schizophrenics, down syndrome sufferers and all other people suffering from a genetic disorder, all have individual and unique pesonalities and that is the reason why it is pointless looking at a specific person's genes as responsible for that person commiting a specific act.

Studying Lanza's genes would be as little use as dragging some stranger of the street and studying their genes to find out why Lanza commited this act. It's simple science.

Actually, only studying Lanza's genes is not useful.
You also need that random person off the street (or better yet a few hundred).
These are called "controls".
As you said. It's simple science.

You said Genes don't control personality. We arent talking about personality. We're talking about behavior and psychopathology. Please learn the difference.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 8:45:31 AM   
vincentML


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Again, the problem is simple. Humans kill other humans, sometimes for "higher" justifications, sometimes for no other reason than to kill humans. It is part of the basic nature of the human animal.

As Hill said, we are talking about psychopathology here. There is ample evidence from anthropology that random killing within our species is not part of our basic nature. This was discussed in another thread, wasn't it, about soldiers who could not kill even under fire? You make a sweeping statement about human nature without any supporting evidence. Agression may be part of our make up but we socialize it. The notion that spree killing is common to human nature is absurd.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/4/2013 8:46:36 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 8:46:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You said Genes don't control personality. We arent talking about personality. We're talking about behavior and psychopathology. Please learn the difference.


Genes don't control personality, they are an influence on personality like experience and environment and diet etc etc.

You are just involved in sophistry because there is no need to use Lanza's genes to study psychopathology in regard to his crime because it will reveal nothing about the reason he commited this act. You are just involved in changing the goal posts. Whether Connecticut want to use Lanza's genes to study psychopathology or his behaviour, as though one has nothing to do with the other, neither will lead to the reason why he commited the act he did. The proposal is still a stunt.



< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/4/2013 8:49:32 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 8:50:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You are just involved in sophistry because there is no need to use Lanza's genes to study psychopathology in regard to his crime because it will reveal nothing about the act he commited. You are just involved in changing the goal posts. Whether you are involved in studying psychopathology or his behaviour, as though one is nothing to do with the other, neither will lead to the reason why he commited the act he did.



We've circled a complete 360 degrees (or is it 720 or 1080 LOL)
How do you know the information isn't there unless you look?

That makes as much sense as saying.
"There are no maple trees on the far side of that mountain"
"Have you or anyone else ever looked?"
"No, but there are no maple trees there? because I said so"

Can you see how foolish and down right Dark Ages that sounds?

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 8:51:20 AM   
vincentML


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Whether you are involved in studying psychopathology or his behaviour, as though one is nothing to do with the other, neither will lead to the reason why he commited the act he did.

How the fuck do you know!!? What a dumbass, arrogant thing to suppose. And who said his act was reasonable? It is not the reason that concerns us but the pathology underlying these tortured fucks. Boundless ignorance, endless chatter.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/4/2013 8:53:00 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 9:03:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As Hill said, we are talking about psychopathology here. There is ample evidence from anthropology that random killing within our species is not part of our basic nature.


Are you serious? There are random killings everyday from a mainstream point of view, they probably won't be random to the perpetrator, it is all a matter of perception. How do you know Lanza's killings were random in his mind? Maybe he had a very good rationalisation in his head about why he should commit this act. Maybe he saw it as an act of vengence on the society he found oppressive? The fact is we will never know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
This was discussed in another thread, wasn't it, about soldiers who could not kill even under fire? You make a sweeping statement about human nature without any supporting evidence. Agression may be part of our make up but we socialize it. The notion that spree killing is common to human nature is absurd.


Socialisation and context is important but there is the whole history of humanity that proves you wrong, people can find it quite easy to kill in the right circumstances.

Given the culture Lanza came from where violence and revenge is glorified and violence is seen as a solution to most problems and given him being a young impressionable male of an age where a young mind has little problem mixing fantasy with reality, Lanza could quite easily see society giving him permission to be violent. There is no need for psychopathology to be involved here, socialisation and the susceptability of a yong mind to stress could be trigger enough.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/4/2013 9:04:11 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 9:08:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

How the fuck do you know!!? What a dumbass, arrogant thing to suppose. And who said his act was reasonable? It is not the reason that concerns us but the pathology underlying these tortured fucks. Boundless ignorance, endless chatter.


You talk crap if you think that studying Lanza's genes could produce a reason for him commiting a specific act because that is not how genes work, they do not work in isolation. Take ten people suffering the same psychopathology, there will be en different personalities and ten different reason for doing almost anything. That is why psychopatholgy will not produce a reason because it is generic in nature, not specific Duh!

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 9:38:44 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If you people know nothing of biology then why are you people even discussing this?

Go find a biologist and ask them what a gene does. They'll tell you what I told you, genes carry the information for the cells to make proteins period.

We do know that some genes and chromomal abnormalities are associated with specific behaviour. For instance trisomy 21, Down's syndrome, is associated with a passive "sweet" disposition while men with XYY syndrome have a higher than normal incidence of violence. We know more about these conditions because we've been able to identify them for far longer than specific gene mutations.


I think it is you who knows nothing about biology when you say genes are simple and then go on to give two examples of genes 'associated with'. Well ALL genes are associated with behaviour, like all expeience is associated with behaviour like the environment is associated with behaviour, it is after all a chemical switch that decides if you have black skin or white skin but how and why is a another matter.

I gave 2 examples of chromosomal abnrmality. Whether any genes are defective on the extra chromosome does not appear to matter in these cases. Perhaps you should actually learn something about this subject before pontificating on it?


The discussion isn't about chromosamal abnormality but direct genetic influence on behaviour, whether it exists or not and whether it is responsible for specific behaviours.

Why don't you read the thread before you shoot off at random about something that bears no relation to the discussion. (rolls eyes)

And the chromosomal abnormalities I mentioned do have a direct genetic affect on behavior. The overproduction of certain proteins, what really happens in these cases, can definitely affect behavior which you claim is impossible.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 9:45:46 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You said Genes don't control personality. We arent talking about personality. We're talking about behavior and psychopathology. Please learn the difference.


Genes don't control personality, they are an influence on personality like experience and environment and diet etc etc.

You are just involved in sophistry because there is no need to use Lanza's genes to study psychopathology in regard to his crime because it will reveal nothing about the reason he commited this act. You are just involved in changing the goal posts. Whether Connecticut want to use Lanza's genes to study psychopathology or his behaviour, as though one has nothing to do with the other, neither will lead to the reason why he commited the act he did. The proposal is still a stunt.



And why wouldn't we want to study the genome of a person who commited mass murder if genes do influence behavior? If we understood the markers maybe we could treat that condition before it resulted in mass murder.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 10:03:03 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And why wouldn't we want to study the genome of a person who commited mass murder if genes do influence behavior? If we understood the markers maybe we could treat that condition before it resulted in mass murder.


Why don't you study the culture he was brought up in, why don't you study upbringing, why don't you study his diet, why don't you study his education, his relationship with his parents, his geographic environment because they all influence his personality and behaviour.

We all know studying his genes as is being discussed on this thread is about finding a silver bullet which just isn't there because unless you study all the other influences that formed his personality, any information that is found in his genes would have no meaning to the specific act of mass murder. Everyone with a genetic disorder has a unique personality so a genetic disorder in itself will reveal nothing in regard to the specific act of mass murder.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/4/2013 10:08:11 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 10:04:42 AM   
IgorsHand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And why wouldn't we want to study the genome of a person who commited mass murder if genes do influence behavior? If we understood the markers maybe we could treat that condition before it resulted in mass murder.


It will reveal nothing.

< Message edited by IgorsHand -- 1/4/2013 10:05:31 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 10:19:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And the chromosomal abnormalities I mentioned do have a direct genetic affect on behavior. The overproduction of certain proteins, what really happens in these cases, can definitely affect behavior which you claim is impossible.


I didn't say it didn't affect behaviour, I said in and of itself it doesn't influence behaviour because you can take ten people with the same genetic disorder and you will have ten different personalities who will respond differently to the same stimuli.

Yes, we all know the symptoms of autism but anyone who has worked with autistic children will tell you they are not all the same and do not act all the same despite having the same genetic disorder.

Everyone keeps trying to pin this attack on a mental illness or a genetic disorder but can't give a reason why 30% of society can at some point experience mental illness without becoming a mass murderer or why people with the same genetic disorder as a mass murderer don't commit mass murder. If a genetic disorder causes a person to perpetrate mass murder then everyone with that genetic disorder will commit mass murder.

As I pointed out earlier, researchers found schizophrenics were more violent than the social mainstream because they were looking for violent behaviour. When there was research with proper controls, the research showed schizophrenics were no more violent to other people than the social mainstream except at the extremes and those figures were so small, the difference could be down to statistical error.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/4/2013 10:20:19 AM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 10:27:36 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Autism is definitely not genetic but behavior is to some degree.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 12:10:16 PM   
IgorsHand


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Autism is definitely not genetic but behavior is to some degree.


No one knows what causes autism but scientists have identified up to 40% as being inherited with a genetic underlying cause.

Genetics influences behaviour as does experience, environment, diet, parental relationships etc etc. To isolate out genetics as a sole cause of behaviour as though genetics can predict bahaviour is a 21st century equivalent of 19th century phrenology.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 12:54:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IgorsHand


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Autism is definitely not genetic but behavior is to some degree.


No one knows what causes autism but scientists have identified up to 40% as being inherited with a genetic underlying cause.

Genetics influences behaviour as does experience, environment, diet, parental relationships etc etc. To isolate out genetics as a sole cause of behaviour as though genetics can predict bahaviour is a 21st century equivalent of 19th century phrenology.

I don't think anyone is trying to say "it's all genetic". What people are trying to do is ask "is there a genetic component and if so, what is it and can we possibly isolate it?"

Unfortunately, there are those who claim. "There is NO genetic component and looking is useless".

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 1:35:13 PM   
vincentML


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Everyone keeps trying to pin this attack on a mental illness or a genetic disorder but can't give a reason why 30% of society can at some point experience mental illness without becoming a mass murderer or why people with the same genetic disorder as a mass murderer don't commit mass murder. If a genetic disorder causes a person to perpetrate mass murder then everyone with that genetic disorder will commit mass murder.

Your reasoning is absolutist and ass backwards. Pure nonsense. Not all violent offenders are psychopathic and not all psychopaths are violent offenders, for example.

It is more logical to say that if a person is so tortured by a mental disorder that he becomes a spree killer it is reasonable to identify others with a similar mental disorder for treatment, and it is reasonable to seek a more efficacious regimen.

quote:

As I pointed out earlier, researchers found schizophrenics were more violent than the social mainstream because they were looking for violent behaviour. When there was research with proper controls, the research showed schizophrenics were no more violent to other people than the social mainstream except at the extremes and those figures were so small, the difference could be down to statistical error.

Or the "error" may be due to Epistemic Uncertainty which includes limits of measurement, insufficient data, and the limits of bell curve probability to account for the Black Swan event.




< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/4/2013 2:12:25 PM >

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 1:42:19 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		A person with ASD is no more violent or prone to acts of violence as any other person in the general population. In other words, ASD did not cause this person to kill.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 2:01:54 PM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

A person with ASD is no more violent or prone to acts of violence as any other person in the general population. In other words, ASD did not cause this person to kill.

Firstly, I don't know that Lanza was diagnosed with ASD. It was reported early on but then retracted.

Secondly, on the average no one in populations with most mental disorders are more prone to acts of violence than the general population. That is on the average, let me emphasize. The black swan is the epistemic improbable, highly impactful event that falls outside the ranges of probability employed by bell curve measurements. It seems to me that spree killers qualify as black swans. Nowhere is this meant to be an indictment of a particular mentally dysfunctional population whose individuals are suffering enough without additional stigma. However, it is more reasonable to assume that the spree killer represents an unanticipated extreme of a smaller population of mental dysfunction than an extreme of the entire population set. At least it narrows the field of search. Unless of course you are into theological EVIL. Then all bets are off.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 2:44:57 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I don't think anyone is trying to say "it's all genetic". What people are trying to do is ask "is there a genetic component and if so, what is it and can we possibly isolate it?"

Unfortunately, there are those who claim. "There is NO genetic component and looking is useless".


Like who said there was no genetic component? Do you always lie? I said researching the gene does not inform anyone about a particular person's behaviour or actions or the influence on psychopathy on behaviour on its own because genes don't work like that, they influence behaviour along with many other influences. No where in that is there a denial that genes don't have an influence.

The other contention is that studying Lanza's genes will tell no one anything about his commiting mass murder even if he has some genetic disorder because genetic disorders on their own do not control behaviour. All studying lanza's genes would do is add information to a data base but if that data base has no control, then even that is pointless.

igor is right, the idea of a genetic silver bullet is contemporary phrenology.

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RE: Sorting Adam Lanza's Genome For Clues - 1/4/2013 2:50:01 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Your reasoning is absolutist and ass backwards. Pure nonsense. Not all violent offenders are psychopathic and not all psychopaths are violent offenders, for example.

It is more logical to say that if a person is so tortured by a mental disorder that he becomes a spree killer it is reasonable to identify others with a similar mental disorder for treatment, and it is reasonable to seek a more efficacious regimen.



You have your head up your ass when you consider 30% of the population will suffer mental illness in their life time. Let me repeat 30% That many makes mental illness normal and mass murder is not normal so where is the correlation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Or the "error" may be due to Epistemic Uncertainty which includes limits of measurement, insufficient data, and the limits of bell curve probability to account for the Black Swan event.



You are obviously married to the idea that people who are mentally ill are mad bad and dangerous but most killers are clinically sane, even mass murderers so your hypothesis has a gaping hole in it to start with.


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