RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 10:56:30 AM)

As I already stated there is a loophole to the ban.

Firearms that are demilled, made incapable of firing a round can be sold after the ban.

A properly licensed gun smith can restore those weapons to fully functional condition... legally.

And in the long run you save about 500 bucks, even counting the ATF fees.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 11:37:32 AM)

Very true... then it falls upon the guy who fixed it.




jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 11:40:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Very true... then it falls upon the guy who fixed it.



Actually, under the NFA guidelines which governs such things it is entirely legal.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 11:43:29 AM)

It does now. If its a stipulation, and I can only make this a supposition as the actual bill isnt released yet, then it only stands to reason that it wont be legal to fix these guns back to operating condition.




jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 11:49:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It does now. If its a stipulation, and I can only make this a supposition as the actual bill isnt released yet, then it only stands to reason that it wont be legal to fix these guns back to operating condition.



Tazzy, in 1984 a bill was passed that put automatic weapons under the control of the NFA firearms act. So that meant no machine gun sold manufactured after 1984 could legally be sold to a civilian. Semi auto conversions had to use parts made before 1984.

However, de milled machine guns sold as collectors items could be restored by a properly licensed gunsmith even if he had to machine the proper parts himself.

In order for that little stipulation to be changed, the entire National Firearms Act would have to be rewritten. And that bill was originally written in the thirties and reworked to cover modern automatic weapons in 84. That was one of the few things that congress accomplished that year, and only because Reagan supported the changes.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:36:36 PM)

Here is what I found on a gun web site.

If it is a "registered DEWAT" yes it can be restored to full auto function with the proper paperwork and tax paid to the BATFE. If it is not already registered in the NFA registry then no you cannot. This applies to fullauto guns only.

Building semis from full auto kits, yes you can as long as its 922 compliant.


and....

A demilled gun is no longer a gun.....its a parts kit and has no registration.

A registered DEWAT has a registration form from the ATF and it is in the NFRTR. It is still considered a gun and it can be reactivated to its full function with the tax paid and proper form. It had to be registered prior to MAY 1986 and a stamped ATF form issued to it.


Is this true? That a DEWAT gun can be restored... but a demilled cannot?

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=417695




jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:46:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is what I found on a gun web site.

If it is a "registered DEWAT" yes it can be restored to full auto function with the proper paperwork and tax paid to the BATFE. If it is not already registered in the NFA registry then no you cannot. This applies to fullauto guns only.

Building semis from full auto kits, yes you can as long as its 922 compliant.


and....

A demilled gun is no longer a gun.....its a parts kit and has no registration.

A registered DEWAT has a registration form from the ATF and it is in the NFRTR. It is still considered a gun and it can be reactivated to its full function with the tax paid and proper form. It had to be registered prior to MAY 1986 and a stamped ATF form issued to it.


Is this true? That a DEWAT gun can be restored... but a demilled cannot?

http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=417695



I will have to look into it.

I know there are three companies that are legally restoring GE mini guns to full function. There are also companies that specialize in restoring to full function ww2 weapons that can only be imported as demilled parts kits.




Nosathro -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:49:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I already stated there is a loophole to the ban.

Firearms that are demilled, made incapable of firing a round can be sold after the ban.

A properly licensed gun smith can restore those weapons to fully functional condition... legally.

And in the long run you save about 500 bucks, even counting the ATF fees.


Legally...I don't think so, would go under repair or even parts.....

RCW 9.41.190

Unlawful firearms — Exceptions.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

(4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony.




jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:54:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I already stated there is a loophole to the ban.

Firearms that are demilled, made incapable of firing a round can be sold after the ban.

A properly licensed gun smith can restore those weapons to fully functional condition... legally.

And in the long run you save about 500 bucks, even counting the ATF fees.


Legally...I don't think so, would go under repair or even parts.....

RCW 9.41.190

Unlawful firearms — Exceptions.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

(4) Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony.



That only applies to weapons manufactured after 1986. A weapon rendered incapable of firing prior to that year is considered a parts kit and therefore can be restored to full function, with the proper fees being paid to the BATF.

Another interesting note, only the receiver assembly is a BATF item requiring registration. Nothing else is. There are tons of pre ban receivers available online, as well as pre ban parts that can be legally used to modify a weapon to select fire providing the proper fees and registration are followed.

You can buy any receiver assembly for between $500 and $750 from any company that carries parts for firearms.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:56:08 PM)

quote:

with the proper fees being paid to the BATF.


The DEWAT... not the demilled.. from my reading that.





jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 12:59:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

with the proper fees being paid to the BATF.


The DEWAT... not the demilled.. from my reading that.





Still looking into the deference, when I find it, I will post the appropriate info.

I do know that a full receiver assembly has to be registered with the BATF, and would not be banned since they are parts to repair a firearm. The problem now is that people are buying receivers and then machining the other parts to make functional weapons, and it is technically legal. There was a segment on Rachel Maddow on the process.




Phydeaux -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 1:13:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Today, large standing armies are primarily used as tools of enforcing diplomatic goals of the state, not as a means of defense. Since WW2, there have been few wars of expansion, the primary exception being in the area of the Persian Gulf, and the "ideological" wars in Korea and Vietnam. Instead there have been a number of civil wars where the US and Soviet Union supplied various sides to project the political philosophies of the super powers.

Since the revolution, the United States has been invaded twice, once during the war of 1812, and the second time when the Japanese invaded two of the Aleutian Islands of Alaska.

Since the end of WW2 and the dawn of the nuclear age, the United States had an effective deterrent to invasion, a nuclear arsenal. Since the end of the Cold War, the United States has involved itself in three wars, The first gulf war, Afghanistan and Iraq. Forgetting the first Gulf War, and focusing on Afghanistan and Iraq, one could have been dealt with more effectively with surgical strikes against terrorist training camps rather than a full scale invasion and Iraq was invaded based on lies and half truths, and therefore was totally unnecessary.

So, I have to ask, why does the United States need a large standing military, if not to project its agenda on the world stage? If this country were to be invaded by a foreign power, the United States would not hesitate to launch a nuclear strike at the heart of the invading country.

It would save the United States billions to keep a smaller standing military and maintain reserve forces, national guards and state defense forces instead.

Those state defense forces would be made up of private citizens that supply their own equipment and weapons, and it would be prudent if those weapons were of similar type and caliber as issued to the standing military and federal reserve forces.



Your premise is inutterably flawed. Our military forces are used on a daily basis. Troops keep the peace by allowing a graduated response to threats. Without forces on call, what would we do when an embassy was attacked, or commercial ships seized. Nukes are an inappropriate response.

Second. We have troops in Nato, in Korea, and in Japan. Our forces serve, not only as a counter to forces which can be brought to theater faster than a regular militarization would allow us, but they also serve as a promise more concrete than the words of politicians.

Military forces in Korea have allowed South Korea to remain independent and flourish. It has kept Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Yemen in the American sphere of influence.

Military forces allow us to interdict intenational slavery.... provide access to resources.







jlf1961 -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 1:38:06 PM)

quote:

Foreign military bases are found in more than 100 countries and territories. The US currently maintains a world-wide network of some 1000 military bases and installations. In addition, other NATO countries, such as France and the UK have a further 200 such military locations within the network of global military control.


So what you are saying is that the US needs to play body guard to other countries and also make sure that they do what we want, even though that may not be in the best interest of that country.

Why dont we just invade them and make them US States?




BamaD -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 2:08:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

grandfathering implies exemption not a backdoor confiscation


There are exemptions.

we are going to steal it from your heirs isn't an exemption it's a delay


Steal it from their heirs.

Let me ask you this... if the heir you left it too is a convicted felon, is it still stealing? Why would someone be denied the access to a weapon under the law Feinstien proposed? Would they not also be denied access to a new weapon as they would an old one? If they cannot go out and buy one, why should they be allowed to possess one simply because someone "gave" it to them?

STRAWMAN ALERT
if the person you left it to they can't legally own the gun and you know it. Confiscation is just a big word fore stealing, it is still being confiscated so it isn't being exempted.




tazzygirl -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 2:11:03 PM)

quote:

STRAWMAN ALERT
if the person you left it to they can't legally own the gun and you know it. Confiscation is just a big word fore stealing, it is still being confiscated so it isn't being exempted.


What confiscation? Like with slaves?

Seriously, would the government not have to give the estate some monetary value for the weapon?

Why would you leave a possession like a gun to someone you knew could not possibly own one by law?




BamaD -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 2:12:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

again according to FBI stats last year 9 times as many people were murdered with non firearms as with all finds of rifles combined doesn't this make the assault weapons ban a strawman? if you register thumbs you cover all weapons and this still only affects those who try to obey the law


No, I dont believe it does make it a strawman. I find you using that argument a bit disingenuous. One.. not all guns will be banned. Two... just because something else may kill someone doesnt mean we shouldnt tackle this problem as well. I dont see guns as being the problem... I do see certain types of guns popping up in all sorts of crimes, not just homicides or mass murders. I dont see legal gun owners as being the criminals... I do see where they could make it extremely harder on a criminal who has the intentions of obtaining their legally possessed weapons.

again FBI stats 3.5% of crimes with FIREARMS are committed with RIFLES OF ALL TYPES so they are creating a crises over a few gun types involved in no more than 2% of firearm related crimes. Do you know what the Riechtag was.




BamaD -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 2:15:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

again according to FBI stats last year 9 times as many people were murdered with non firearms as with all finds of rifles combined doesn't this make the assault weapons ban a strawman? if you register thumbs you cover all weapons and this still only affects those who try to obey the law


No, I dont believe it does make it a strawman. I find you using that argument a bit disingenuous. One.. not all guns will be banned. Two... just because something else may kill someone doesnt mean we shouldnt tackle this problem as well. I dont see guns as being the problem... I do see certain types of guns popping up in all sorts of crimes, not just homicides or mass murders. I dont see legal gun owners as being the criminals... I do see where they could make it extremely harder on a criminal who has the intentions of obtaining their legally possessed weapons.

unless it is agenda driven why would anyone be building up the guns that look like assault weapon as a threat that they simply are not
and still you don't see a problem with going after the innocent in the hopes of slowing down the guilty




BamaD -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 2:17:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

STRAWMAN ALERT
if the person you left it to they can't legally own the gun and you know it. Confiscation is just a big word fore stealing, it is still being confiscated so it isn't being exempted.


What confiscation? Like with slaves?

Seriously, would the government not have to give the estate some monetary value for the weapon?

Why would you leave a possession like a gun to someone you knew could not possibly own one by law?

not a dime that is the beauty of confiscation and why I say it is just a big word for stealing




Real0ne -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 6:09:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


There was one young woman I went out with years ago who kept her Smith and Wesson at her bedside, but on the side closest to the entrance to her room. You can't believe all the finagling and scenario playing it took me to convince her that it would be safer if she kept the gun on the side of the bed further away from the door.

In the same era, another young woman I was attracted to told me that she kept a gun in her home, but when I asked if she kept one in the chamber with the safety on, or had the safety off but needing to advance a round, she looked perplexed and told me she didn't know. I didn't ask her out.

There are tens of thousands of men too stupid to figure out how to defend their home with a simple 9 mm and two clips, who claim they need assault weapons and a Howitzer for the task.

Heaven help us if our country ever gets to the state of relying on people such as these to save our country.

Heaven help us if our country ever acquieses to the likes of Senator Dianne Fiestein who wants to deny Joe Blow citizen the right to the same CCW permit that she has.


It seems there are a lot of politicians who think others should be restricted but not themselves.

http://news.yahoo.com/illinois-lawmaker-running-congress-bond-gun-charge-024620350.html





equal protection "under" the police state?




Real0ne -> RE: Why was the 2nd Amendment written and added to the Constitution. (1/6/2013 7:35:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

they are also being dishonest telling us there is no confiscation when the standards for gettinga full auto permit are, understandibley much higher than for other firearms people will not know untill it is too late that for most this will mean immediate confiscation.


So now you are arguing that people will be ignorant of the new laws and that isnt fair to them?

quote:

this will overload ATF as they will go from a few thousand (estimate) to several million. A few hotheads here a few there body count goes up real fast. While reading several assesment of this last night I came across a comment by NYC chief who said it would be so dangerous that half his force would quit first.


Another who states all Doctors will leave the country if we implement health care laws?

I see people complain all the time on the boards about other countries with much harsher gun laws than we have. But, if every step you attempt to make is hesitant because this might happen, or they might react, or the other might not like it... why bother moving at all? THATS what is happening in this country.

And you are proud of that?

I am arguing that they are being delibertly missled


How so? The bill is available... all laws are made available. If I can figure it out, surely an other gun owner can.



that is so totally incorrect.

they can create a trust compact with you and you would have no clue what so ever that instead of a written law you were bound by a secret trust.

all nice lego and equitable because americans have no clue what to look for or how to defend against it, and because of general puppy chow eating koolaid drinking public ignorance they have done whatever their lil ole hearts content to this country since its creation and peeps are none the wiser.




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