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Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 2:34:58 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		There is not a forum for discussions of power exchange or related things, so I guess it goes here.

In many dynamics there are things that the dominant/controlling personality does to influence the submissive type personality. At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited? Can they actually give consent at this point? Where is the line in your opinion? Should that line apply to all?

I will give an example: In my relationship, amira has agreed to an ongoing process of internal enslavement techniques. This training has made it extremely difficult to oppose my will, and to date she has not openly defied me. There was an incident where she got extremely emotional, packed her things, and stood at the door crying. She then turned around and said she couldn't leave because she did not have permission to.

Some use catch phrases like consensual non-consent, owner/property, internal enslavement, etc.

Some call it brainwashing, conditioning, and/or psychological abuse as it erodes a person's ability to exert their will to various degrees.

I hope this turns into a stimulating discussion that many sides can be expressed and explored.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 2:45:40 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited?

The instant we engage in any sense whatsoever. The more interesting question to me is "at what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited enough that consent becomes problematic?" Honestly, to discuss this I think we need to cover some fundamentals like "freedom" and "free will".

Can they actually give consent at this point?
Sure they can. The question is how much coercion is present and does that coercion negate the "free choice" and does anyone care about that? There was an interesting discussion on self-sovereignty and another on reactance over on the Gorean boards that touched on these questions.

Where is the line in your opinion?
I'm unclear on what line you're talking about.

This is one of those discussions I have longed to have here and seriously thought about setting up a "by invite only" private discussion board to facilitate. I'll be fascinated to see how it goes here. In my mind, all that you are describing is an inevitable consequence of thinking that dominance and submission are real rather than a synthetic result of an agreement. As soon as you acknowledge that it's possible to actually be "dominant" or "submissive" then you have to posit that at some point the spread between the dom and sub will be broad enough that things like consent and free will are illusions.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 1/9/2013 2:47:29 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:00:34 PM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		A lot depends on just how much influence you have over that person. And how forcefully you're pushing whatever change (personality or behavior ?)

I don't believe that a breathing person ever loses the capability of making a free choice.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:13:08 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Jeff clarifies the questions much better than I did.

The line I am talking would be the one you feel shouldn't be crossed, or is the line between right and wrong (those being subjective of course)

BTW Jeff, the influence started the moment we communicate, and you answered correctly.

Yeah it will be interesting how it turns out, and who will contribute.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:22:57 PM   
FelineFae


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Joined: 1/23/2009
From: i do wander everywhere...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Some use catch phrases like consensual non-consent, owner/property, internal enslavement, etc.

Some call it brainwashing, conditioning, and/or psychological abuse as it erodes a person's ability to exert their will to various degrees.



This makes me think of the state of being codependent. People tend to judge it at face value as a weakness. Upon furthar examination, one finds it's a coping mechanism.



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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:23:22 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
The line I am talking would be the one you feel shouldn't be crossed, or is the line between right and wrong (those being subjective of course)

Thanks for the compliment. This is a fascinating topic to me... in fact, the most fascinating since it is the very heart of my dynamic with Carol and the very reason I oft-times feel I fit in better on the gorean boards (all except the gor thing) than I do on the BDSM boards. Honestly, my own experience tells me that the BDSM group sees this vastly different than the Gorean group.

Insofar as your "line", I had to grapple with this at the age of 22 or so and then again when I collared Carol and was vastly surprised by the resultant dynamic. My end conclusion was that she was unable to consent so I acknowledge no such line. It's the guy in the mirror I answer to not some arbitrary standard like "consent".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:23:30 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I will give an example: In my relationship, amira has agreed to an ongoing process of internal enslavement techniques. This training has made it extremely difficult to oppose my will, and to date she has not openly defied me. There was an incident where she got extremely emotional, packed her things, and stood at the door crying. She then turned around and said she couldn't leave because she did not have permission to.


Wow. I have been there.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:51:06 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

I don't believe that a breathing person ever loses the capability of making a free choice.


You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but it is patently possible to force nearly anyone to act in whatever manner you wish.

At minimum two thirds of the population have distinct circumstances where they do not make a free choice.

Whether they have the capacity to is kind of moot if they never will.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to areallivehuman)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 3:53:03 PM   
OsideGirl


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Some use catch phrases like consensual non-consent, owner/property, internal enslavement, etc.

Some call it brainwashing, conditioning, and/or psychological abuse as it erodes a person's ability to exert their will to various degrees.



This makes me think of the state of being codependent. People tend to judge it at face value as a weakness. Upon furthar examination, one finds it's a coping mechanism.




It makes me think "Stockholm Syndrome".


_____________________________

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 4:02:47 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited?

The second they give consent to belong to Me.

Can they give consent at this point?

They can give full cooperation because they belong to their owner now, and consent was given to that owner.
You can't give some one the keys and paperwork to a car, put it in their name..and walk back up and get in the car. It's not yours to drive anymore.

Crossing a line...

I don't think one should give that much power over to someone who they feel might cross that line or they feel a line that can be crossed. Once consent is given, there is no line. One needs to have complete trust in the owner that power is given, to respect limits previously discussed before power exchange.

Now when any slave who is willing to break that bond and say " I want out of this "....that is the FINAL and ONLY say they have with Me.

I hope what I said makes sense and answered your questions.




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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 4:26:40 PM   
saundrakitty


Posts: 148
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		I agree that once they give there consent to Me and then take my collar that their choices become moot with me as well. I respect the fact with that power that there is a need to know where the lines are so that they feel no need to leave.

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 4:33:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Some use catch phrases like consensual non-consent, owner/property, internal enslavement, etc.

Some call it brainwashing, conditioning, and/or psychological abuse as it erodes a person's ability to exert their will to various degrees.



This makes me think of the state of being codependent. People tend to judge it at face value as a weakness. Upon furthar examination, one finds it's a coping mechanism.




It makes me think "Stockholm Syndrome".





I can see a kinship in that its typically an emotional reaction, its just not from the abusive end.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 4:41:54 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

In many dynamics there are things that the dominant/controlling personality does to influence the submissive type personality. At what point is their ability to make a free choice inhibited? Can they actually give consent at this point? Where is the line in your opinion? Should that line apply to all?


It's sand. Some people like to draw a line in it. But in the end, it's just people interacting. Sometimes, someone objects to the interaction and intervenes. As the saying in the Gorean section goes, the steel of others will set your limits. You're on the record as having set that limit for another man in the past. We're both on the record as having gone beyond where many would like to set the limits, but haven't, whether for lack of will, steel or reach. I don't feel the need to try to draw a line for you. I doubt you feel the need to draw a line for me.

To be honest, I don't have a good answer for you, beyond the simple fact that, for the most part, wherever the line goes, if it even exists, it usually won't be drawn by the person with the submissive type personality. The ability to make a free choice diminishes with the onset of interaction, and the ability to consent as seperate from the ability to agree is a very poorly defined and arbitrary distinction that seems to primarily exist to draw a line between adults and children, insane people and those under the influence of drugs (incl. alcohol).

In the end, it's me deciding whether to claim someone, and potentially people trying to oppose that claim. For myself, making a decision like that normally requires talking to this person and getting an impression of what they're thinking, and figuring out if I see that as being a good place to start. And that's kind of at the heart of it, anyway, whether to start or not, because it can go anywhere from there, for anyone. I don't know if tomorrow is going to bring a massive stroke that leaves me with a vegetable. I just try to be me, evaluate our direction regularly, make sure I'm reasonably certain I can stand where I place my feet, and muddle on as best as possible.

«He who thinks he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely foolish or extremely wise; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder.» — Qanuc proverb; Memory, Sorrow and Thorn (Tad Williams).

Really, what is consent but trust and an intention to start a journey together?

And if someone starts walking alongside us, how is that different?

I've no idea. I prefer the simple option: I do what I am.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 4:45:59 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I can see a kinship in that its typically an emotional reaction, its just not from the abusive end.


Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Capture Bonding doesn't abuse slaves; abusive assholes abuse slaves.

That about the size and shape of it?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/9/2013 4:46:33 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:07:41 PM   
ForeverGaia


Posts: 43
Joined: 11/5/2011
Status: offline 		Interesting discussion.

I believe that the ability to make a free choice is inhibited once a submissive enters into a relationship with their dominant. However, that does not negate all free choice. Dependant on the dynamic of the relationship; as in the case of mine, it is consent based. At the end of the day and each morning I make a decision to remain with my Owner and consent to his control of me - therefore I recognise it is a limitation of my autonomy and free choice.

With regard to actually give consent at this time; if you are working towards Internal Enslavement (IE) then I would say no. If your dynamic is that of mine, I would say yes.

The line, in my opinion, is the one that my Owner and I have agreed on. My consent to be there. If that is removed, it's a breech of the basis of understanding that our relationship is founded on.

Gaia.

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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:09:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I can see a kinship in that its typically an emotional reaction, its just not from the abusive end.


Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Capture Bonding doesn't abuse slaves; abusive assholes abuse slaves.

That about the size and shape of it?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



~grins

Exactly!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:10:55 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I simply see it as the difference between me submitting.. and me being mastered.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:13:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman
I don't believe that a breathing person ever loses the capability of making a free choice.


So then you do not believe in any type of psychological conditioning that can be done to a person? What about the subtle conditions, such as used by advertising companies? What is really a free choice in your opinion?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to areallivehuman)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:24:15 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Before I start I'd like to make it totally clear that I am not makign any sort of qualitative judgement here.... there's no implication of "more true" or "less dominant" or whatever. I'm exploring differences as I see them. As I say a lot, "better" in my mind isn't "more D/s". It's "more smiles".

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
The second they give consent to belong to Me.

This is that thing I don't really understand. I call it "D/s by agreement" or "BDSM D/s". But what happens when consent isn't really a part of the equation? What happens when it's basically down to, "I want to and I can so I do." ? In the model you're talking about there is a point when consent is achievable. In the model I'm talking about (and I think the one Orion is talking about) consent was never particularly relevant from the very beginning. All you have is a "stronger" personality overshadowing a 'weaker" one (although I dislike those terms). There's no agreements. There's no limits or boundaries. There's no "the slave should protect herself" -- because that simply isn't feasible. All there is, to quote Aswad, is simply two people interacting and neither can choose to be someone different than they are. Then, if you build on that base by aggressively shaping the slave you end up at "internal enslavement" or <insert term du jour>.

I don't think one should give that much power over to someone who they feel might cross that line
Same conceptual shift It's a different thing if you're talking about the slave deciding how much power to give. What I'm talking about doesn't involve the slave making that decision. The better question is, "How much power is the master able to take and how much does he want?"

Now when any slave who is willing to break that bond and say " I want out of this "....that is the FINAL and ONLY say they have with Me.
Same difference... if Carol was able to make that sort of decision on her own then she already wasn't mine long, long before that.

In other words, any model which relies on "free will" and "consent" is anathema to the thing I call "dominance" and "submission".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TNDommeK)
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RE: Influence of someone's choice and consent - 1/9/2013 5:29:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ForeverGaia

Interesting discussion.

I believe that the ability to make a free choice is inhibited once a submissive enters into a relationship with their dominant. However, that does not negate all free choice. Dependant on the dynamic of the relationship; as in the case of mine, it is consent based. At the end of the day and each morning I make a decision to remain with my Owner and consent to his control of me - therefore I recognise it is a limitation of my autonomy and free choice.


So each decision you make is a conscious choice to make the decisions a certain way? Are there any programmed response your owner has influenced in you?

quote:


With regard to actually give consent at this time; if you are working towards Internal Enslavement (IE) then I would say no. If your dynamic is that of mine, I would say yes.

The line, in my opinion, is the one that my Owner and I have agreed on. My consent to be there. If that is removed, it's a breech of the basis of understanding that our relationship is founded on.

Gaia.


So your consent is reaffirmed with each time you obey? How much control of you would you say your owner has?

Internal Enslavement is a technique and condition that can be searched on the internet. I believe it is a .uk site that has some of the better essays from long ago.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to ForeverGaia)
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