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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 7:45:41 PM   
jlf1961


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Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I understood him to say the AK round was real close to the thirty. Which it is.

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 7:46:00 PM   
Ronnie1986


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


actually he said the 308 was close to a 30cal and the ak does not use a 7.62x51 it uses a 7.62x39

Which is close to 30

7.62 mm = approx 0.309 inches

theres a pretty big difference in power there though between the 51 and 39 not to mention a 30cals power..

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 7:51:58 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


actually he said the 308 was close to a 30cal and the ak does not use a 7.62x51 it uses a 7.62x39

Which is close to 30

7.62 mm = approx 0.309 inches

theres a pretty big difference in power there though between the 51 and 39

true there. What I was pointing out was the anti gunner fallacy that "Assault rifles" are smaller high velocity cartriges meant for KILLING
The Russian isnt smaller. It's still about 30 cal (same caliber as your typical hunting rifle). The NATO .223 is Hi velocity but more for wounding. It sends out a high fire rate and the lighter cartrige means that a grunt can carry 3x as many of them as the AK. This is important when resupply is many miles away.
The Russkies went for their grunts carrying fewer rounds but each one more powerful
NATO wanted more rounds, each one capable of incapacitating. The Brits found out that the .223 wasn't all that great for close in work in the Falklands.

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:06:16 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I wish the fucking gun nuts would stop lying about this.

Assault rifles were developed from the experiences in WWII. They are shorter and lighter rifles that fire a smaller but high velocity cartridge than the roughly .30 caliber hunting rifle rounds fired by battle rifles of the era. The AR-15 was the first of these to be produced and enter service in the west while the AK-47 was the Soviet version. What matters is the size of the weapon and the cartridge meant for nothing but killing people. There have been full selective fire versions of the AR-15 and there have been semi-automatic versions but that doesn't magically change the weapon.

Ken, the AK is the most common 'assault rifle' in the world and is very close to a 30 cal.
the AR15 is the .223.

Sorry but the AR15 and M-16 is meant more for high rate of fire and wounding.
If I wanted a cartrige to kill someone, I would never use a .223.

The 7.62X39 is the SKS or AK-47 round. The 7.62X51 is the NATO round which is a much more powerful round still used in belt fed MG's and sniper rifles, some times this round is reffered to as the 308 Winchester. did you mix the bullets up or am i wrong for thinking you did?

308 is very close to 30 cal (8 thousandths)
I was pointing out the fallacy that so called 'assault rifles' weren't "smaller than the roughly 30 cal hunting cartiges" because the AK is very close to 30 cal. and it's the most common one on the world (arguably the best).

The .223 AR is smaller but it's not nearly as good for termination.

You were making an erroneous claim actually.

The round used in the AK-47 is significantly shorter than any .30 hunting cartridge.

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:07:11 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		JUST fun to watch

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:07:54 PM   
Ronnie1986


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I wish the fucking gun nuts would stop lying about this.

Assault rifles were developed from the experiences in WWII. They are shorter and lighter rifles that fire a smaller but high velocity cartridge than the roughly .30 caliber hunting rifle rounds fired by battle rifles of the era. The AR-15 was the first of these to be produced and enter service in the west while the AK-47 was the Soviet version. What matters is the size of the weapon and the cartridge meant for nothing but killing people. There have been full selective fire versions of the AR-15 and there have been semi-automatic versions but that doesn't magically change the weapon.

Ken, the AK is the most common 'assault rifle' in the world and is very close to a 30 cal.
the AR15 is the .223.

Sorry but the AR15 and M-16 is meant more for high rate of fire and wounding.
If I wanted a cartrige to kill someone, I would never use a .223.

The 7.62X39 is the SKS or AK-47 round. The 7.62X51 is the NATO round which is a much more powerful round still used in belt fed MG's and sniper rifles, some times this round is reffered to as the 308 Winchester. did you mix the bullets up or am i wrong for thinking you did?

308 is very close to 30 cal (8 thousandths)
I was pointing out the fallacy that so called 'assault rifles' weren't "smaller than the roughly 30 cal hunting cartiges" because the AK is very close to 30 cal. and it's the most common one on the world (arguably the best).

The .223 AR is smaller but it's not nearly as good for termination.

You were making an erroneous claim actually.

The round used in the AK-47 is significantly shorter than any .30 hunting cartridge.

thats what im getting at...

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:10:05 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The round used in my .50 Desert Eagle is significantly shorter than the 50 cal M2 round.

And to be honest, I dont like the idea of being down range of either of them.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:10:21 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		HERE is another

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:15:13 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You were making an erroneous claim actually.

The round used in the AK-47 is significantly shorter than any .30 hunting cartridge.

But it's NOT a significantly smaller bullet as you were claiming. It's very close to a .308 and it's available with a 154 grain bullet.

The 30/06 is arguably the most popular hunting cartrige in the world.

Guess what the most popular bullet weights are?

151 gr and 160 gr.

Your claim of it being so much smaller than 'sporting arms' is just untrue.

30-06 factory load 160 gr travels about 2900 FPS
an AK round at about 150 gr hits agbout 2600 FPS

The cartrige is shorter but it isnt higher velocity and has a similar bullet contrary to both yoru claims.



< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/18/2013 8:26:27 PM >

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:18:33 PM   
Ronnie1986


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Status: offline 		but your original arguement is thrown aside due to power difference and as for the .50cal desert eagle that gun is a stupid thing to buy my dad bought one of those.. and you wouldnt hit shit down range with it is my bet.. id rather be down range of that eagle than a 50 cal rifle anyday or for that matter a five seven.. so your arguement is weak also

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:23:56 PM   
Ronnie1986


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Joined: 1/15/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE is another

i said the ak was inaccurate as hell it was not designed for accuracy... over all it is the better gun though.. it was designed for spray and pray as i have said the maker knew soldiers got scared and did not properly take there time to aim.. it is meant to be spray and pray so who really cares if a gun that can take more abuse is more reliable wont jam if its a real ak and non a civilian model is throwing itself around when it fires.. its operating as intended lol

< Message edited by Ronnie1986 -- 1/18/2013 8:25:08 PM >

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:29:53 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

but your original arguement is thrown aside due to power difference and as for the .50cal desert eagle that gun is a stupid thing to buy my dad bought one of those.. and you wouldnt hit shit down range with it is my bet.. id rather be down range of that eagle than a 50 cal rifle anyday or for that matter a five seven.. so your arguement is weak also



Gee at 50 yards, with the desert eagle I manage 1 inch groupings, but then I dont try to bang out a magazine in record time.

Of course I have been shooting since I was five, and I am 51 now.

The muzzle drop of the desert eagle is significant and it took me years of practice to do what I am able to do. In a crisis situation, I would go for my 1911 colt .45. My experience with both has taught me that the Desert Eagle is not the best weapon in a crisis, and other than using it on the range, it is not really worth being an everyday pistol.

And, I did not purchase it, I got it as part repayment for a loan I made to my cousin. I also got 2 .308 AR based rifles, which I am not fond of, they dont feel right when I have tried to use them for wild hogs. And the recoil causes muzzle rise. But hey, the boy did not have the cash, so I took the guns.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:37:07 PM   
Ronnie1986


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Status: offline 		im calling bullshit on your groupings even if you said 20 yards instead of 50.. so youre telling me at half a football field with no scope on a hand cannon.. no nono... just because you hit the target once and it left a 1 inch hole does not mean all the bullets went thru that hole lol.. look im not exactly calling you out but i can see that you are definatley not being totally honest here

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RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:37:36 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

over all it is the better gun though..

Beware of saying (insert name here) is a better gun.
It depends on what you wish to use it for.

I have 9 hammers in my house. All are different. None is 'better'. It depends on whether I want to smash concrete, drive brads or anything in between.
The AK is a very good tool for certain situations. The purpose of the unit commander should be to place his troops in that situation while making sure the opposing force is in a less than optimal situaltion based on their assumed weapon load out.

The AK is great for some things and terrible for others.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:42:09 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

im calling bullshit on your groupings even if you said 20 yards instead of 50.. so youre telling me at half a football field with no scope on a hand cannon.. no nono... just because you hit the target once and it left a 1 inch hole does not mean all the bullets went thru that hole lol.. look im not exactly calling you out but i can see that you are definatley not being totally honest here

Jeff is a US govt trained sniper.

Nothing those guys hit surprises me. Ive shot with a couple of them. Any time I think I'm shooting good, I call one of them up. Solves the problem every time. LOL

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:44:35 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

im calling bullshit on your groupings even if you said 20 yards instead of 50.. so youre telling me at half a football field with no scope on a hand cannon.. no nono... just because you hit the target once and it left a 1 inch hole does not mean all the bullets went thru that hole lol.. look im not exactly calling you out but i can see that you are definatley not being totally honest here


I do apologize, I did mean 20, not fifty. I doubt you could get 4 inch groupings at fifty yards with a pistol.

I am trying to post and keep an eye on my great nephew. The little bugger has mastered opening child proof cabinet locks, pulling my dresser drawers out and turning off my computer, and he is only 11 months old.

Tonight happens to be one of his "I am wired for sound and do not want to go to sleep" nights. The only thing he had with sugar in it was chocolate milk about 9 hours ago.


He has also figured out a way to climb the ottoman we use to block my door.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:44:45 PM   
Ronnie1986


Posts: 102
Joined: 1/15/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

over all it is the better gun though..

Beware of saying (insert name here) is a better gun.
It depends on what you wish to use it for.

I have 9 hammers in my house. All are different. None is 'better'. It depends on whether I want to smash concrete, drive brads or anything in between.
The AK is a very good tool for certain situations. The purpose of the unit commander should be to place his troops in that situation while making sure the opposing force is in a less than optimal situaltion based on their assumed weapon load out.

The AK is great for some things and terrible for others.

overall the ak is the better gun and like all guns can be modified to add where its lacking.. ive already said i dont like the ak.. i cant stand it.. but im sure beyond a doubt if one of them top 10 shows did assault rifles the ak would be number one due to its overall score... im sure they already did that though im just to lazy to search..

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:46:40 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronnie1986

over all it is the better gun though..

Beware of saying (insert name here) is a better gun.
It depends on what you wish to use it for.

I have 9 hammers in my house. All are different. None is 'better'. It depends on whether I want to smash concrete, drive brads or anything in between.
The AK is a very good tool for certain situations. The purpose of the unit commander should be to place his troops in that situation while making sure the opposing force is in a less than optimal situaltion based on their assumed weapon load out.

The AK is great for some things and terrible for others.

overall the ak is the better gun and like all guns can be modified to add where its lacking.. ive already said i dont like the ak.. i cant stand it.. but im sure beyond a doubt if one of them top 10 shows did assault rifles the ak would be number one due to its overall score... im sure they already did that though im just to lazy to search..



Actually on the military channel it was featured on the top ten assault weapons. If I remember correctly it rated 3. I cant remember what ranked higher.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Ronnie1986)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 8:51:50 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Here ya go guys

http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/combat-countdown/top-10-combat-rifles.htm

They rate the AK 1 and M-16 2

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: What do flah suppressors have to do with crime control - 1/18/2013 9:00:22 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here ya go guys

http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/combat-countdown/top-10-combat-rifles.htm

They rate the AK 1 and M-16 2



I stand corrected. I thought it was 3.

In my opinion they rated the M16 to high, but that is neither here nor there.

Personally, I prefer some of the FN rifles, but no local dealers carry them, and they charge outrageous fees for special orders.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 120
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