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RE: Women in combat - 1/24/2013 10:57:00 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyEnemy

There are pt standards in the army, a certain number of pushups and situps are required in 2 minutes and a 2 mile run in a certain time is required to pass. The amount of pushups and situps is significantly lower and the run time is significantly slower for women. Not only that but a passing score army wide is officially 180 (60 in each category) in the infantry you are expected to get at least a 280 and if you don't you will be doing remedial pt in all your free time until you do.
Before woman can become infantry they need to meet the same physical requirements as the rest of us. No lower pt standard and no lower pt scores.


There are lower PT requirements for women, sure. There are also lower PT requirements for men over 22. IIRC, the requirements for younger women are about the same as the requirements for a guy in his late 30s. Who could be in the infantry and see combat.

I do think the Army needs to have minimum standards for combat roles that apply across the board regardless of age or gender, but it might not be "X pushups, Y situps". It might be "can march with X lb pack for Y miles", or something else. I think it's got to be based on the kinds of physical activities that the job will actually involve.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Women in combat - 1/24/2013 11:03:42 PM   
MyEnemy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: MyEnemy

There are pt standards in the army, a certain number of pushups and situps are required in 2 minutes and a 2 mile run in a certain time is required to pass. The amount of pushups and situps is significantly lower and the run time is significantly slower for women. Not only that but a passing score army wide is officially 180 (60 in each category) in the infantry you are expected to get at least a 280 and if you don't you will be doing remedial pt in all your free time until you do.
Before woman can become infantry they need to meet the same physical requirements as the rest of us. No lower pt standard and no lower pt scores.


There are lower PT requirements for women, sure. There are also lower PT requirements for men over 22. IIRC, the requirements for younger women are about the same as the requirements for a guy in his late 30s. Who could be in the infantry and see combat.

I do think the Army needs to have minimum standards for combat roles that apply across the board regardless of age or gender, but it might not be "X pushups, Y situps". It might be "can march with X lb pack for Y miles", or something else. I think it's got to be based on the kinds of physical activities that the job will actually involve.

I wasn't trying to argue the validity of the specific requirements (which I've always felt favored extremely short and light people) but the notion that all should be held to the same standard. I know special forces selection holds everyone to the standard of an 18 year old regardless of their actual age. I think you have to score a 300 at the age level 18 standard the first day of selection but I'm not sure.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/24/2013 11:06:28 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyEnemy


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

as for physical ability. Nope, women overall aren't as strong as men. And if things came down to a physical, hand-to-hand fight, they wouldn't do as well, but how often does that happen any more. What i see on the news is gun battle , not fisticuffs, and women are as capable of firing a gun as the next guy.



And even in hand-to-hand situations, skill and speed can make up for strength. Women will generally have to train harder to be as effective, but they can be.

That's ridiculous and completely irrelevant to whether woman should be allowed in combat. They should be held to the same standard, not an imaginary video game one.


Imaginary video game one? I'm speaking from my personal experience with martial arts. I absolutely can and have gotten tap-outs from men that are bigger than me but much less skilled.

You know what, while we're talking about standards, I did 60 push-ups and crunches today. That's more than what the Army requires men to do. It hurts like a mofo, but I do that shit at least 3x a week. How many can you do?

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Women in combat - 1/24/2013 11:09:15 PM   
MedFetDomme


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It's an all volunteer military. It's our country too. I'd fight for America.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Women in combat - 1/24/2013 11:20:06 PM   
MyEnemy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: MyEnemy


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

as for physical ability. Nope, women overall aren't as strong as men. And if things came down to a physical, hand-to-hand fight, they wouldn't do as well, but how often does that happen any more. What i see on the news is gun battle , not fisticuffs, and women are as capable of firing a gun as the next guy.



And even in hand-to-hand situations, skill and speed can make up for strength. Women will generally have to train harder to be as effective, but they can be.

That's ridiculous and completely irrelevant to whether woman should be allowed in combat. They should be held to the same standard, not an imaginary video game one.


Imaginary video game one? I'm speaking from my personal experience with martial arts. I absolutely can and have gotten tap-outs from men that are bigger than me but much less skilled.

You know what, while we're talking about standards, I did 60 push-ups and crunches today. That's more than what the Army requires men to do. It hurts like a mofo, but I do that shit at least 3x a week. How many can you do?

Are you seriously turning this into an I'm more fit than you argument? I'd love to know what that has to do with women in combat. If you want to measure our dicks though, I was honorably discharged from the army as infantry a little over a year ago, at the time I was doing +/- 80 pushups and 70 situps in 2 minutes and running 2 miles in 14 minutes. I trained regularly in combatives and I assure you size strength and skill outmatched speed any day. Right now who knows, I'm fat as hell and never exercise. But as I said all that is pretty pointless for allowing woman in the infantry since modern wars aren't fought with armbars and rear naked chokes. They are fought by carrying 80 lbs of gear for miles faster than the enemy.

And I'm not even saying women shouldn't be allowed into the infantry, I'm just saying they need to be held to the same standard and that standard should not be lowered for them.

< Message edited by MyEnemy -- 1/24/2013 11:21:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 3:30:50 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaharThorne

I am a veteran and was trained in shooting an M-60. This was back in the 80s though. If Israel has female combat soldiers, so can the USA.

I was a comm rat anyway so not only did I have to carry a 80 pound knapsack, I had to make sure I can lift 75 pound radios. I weight trained myself to keep fit. I also was the only female comm rat. The other females in my company were medics or paperpushers.

Do we face the manpower shortage that forced that step by Israel. Of course not. The Russians in WWII did it when they started running out of men,


The German population in 1939 was some 69,850, Russia popluation was 165.5 million it is true that
on a per centage bases Russia had more deaths some 8 million to 13 million...but I don't think the ran out of men....

About 8 million soldiers and about 17 million civilians.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 3:32:25 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MedFetDomme

It's an all volunteer military. It's our country too. I'd fight for America.

Will you fight for aig?general motors,or wall street?

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 3:48:51 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Ambassador Stevens was not raped.


I trust my information, which says that he was.


You might want to try reality. Ambassador Stevens was never physically under the control of the attackers and died of smoke inhalation.

(in reply to Notsweet)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 3:50:18 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: MedFetDomme

It's an all volunteer military. It's our country too. I'd fight for America.

Will you fight for aig?general motors,or wall street?



Been reading Robert Asprin's Cold Cash War again?

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 5:32:19 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ambassador Stevens was not raped.


I trust my information, which says that he was.


AFP not behind report of purported rape of murdered U.S. ambassador to Libya

...According to the Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org, citing AFP news sources, U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens, who was killed by gunmen that stormed the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday, was reportedly raped before being murdered. A google translation of the report says : [image]

UPDATE 2 9/15/12:
The AFP has sent out the following statement:

Greetings, Concerning your query on the report published by a Lebanese website according to which ambassador Stevens was sodomized. That report falsely quoted our news agency and has no truth whatsover to it. AFP promptly sent a strongly worded complaint to that website and they removed the report and published a denial, saying that AFP did not report such a thing.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/#ixzz2J8Rsf2bn

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Women in combat - 1/26/2013 5:36:18 PM   
Baroana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

News reports indicate Leon Panetta, US Secretary of Defence, is lifting the ban on women in most combat roles in the US military.

Will this cause the end of western civilization or usher in a new golden age?


Utterly against the women being put in harm's way - always have been, always will be...!

Errrm, golden age of what?

Focus.




That's the same mentality that kept women from having the right to vote. Just saying.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Women in combat - 1/27/2013 7:58:27 PM   
Notsweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ambassador Stevens was not raped.


I trust my information, which says that he was.


AFP not behind report of purported rape of murdered U.S. ambassador to Libya

...According to the Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org, citing AFP news sources, U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens, who was killed by gunmen that stormed the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday, was reportedly raped before being murdered. A google translation of the report says : [image]

UPDATE 2 9/15/12:
The AFP has sent out the following statement:

Greetings, Concerning your query on the report published by a Lebanese website according to which ambassador Stevens was sodomized. That report falsely quoted our news agency and has no truth whatsover to it. AFP promptly sent a strongly worded complaint to that website and they removed the report and published a denial, saying that AFP did not report such a thing.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/#ixzz2J8Rsf2bn


Can message you about this if you like, but the AP is not where I got my information.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Women in combat - 1/27/2013 8:53:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ambassador Stevens was not raped.


I trust my information, which says that he was.


AFP not behind report of purported rape of murdered U.S. ambassador to Libya

...According to the Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org, citing AFP news sources, U.S. ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens, who was killed by gunmen that stormed the U.S. consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday, was reportedly raped before being murdered. A google translation of the report says : [image]

UPDATE 2 9/15/12:
The AFP has sent out the following statement:

Greetings, Concerning your query on the report published by a Lebanese website according to which ambassador Stevens was sodomized. That report falsely quoted our news agency and has no truth whatsover to it. AFP promptly sent a strongly worded complaint to that website and they removed the report and published a denial, saying that AFP did not report such a thing.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/13/picket-report-murdered-us-ambassador-libya-reporte/#ixzz2J8Rsf2bn


Can message you about this if you like, but the AP is not where I got my information.

Why not back up your public claim publicly?

(in reply to Notsweet)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Women in combat - 1/27/2013 10:09:50 PM   
LafayetteLady


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I'm certainly no expert on this, but it seems to me that throughout history, there have been more than just a couple "diminutive" men who were drafted, and who were in the infantry throughout history. So I can honestly say I'm a bit confused that we can send a 5'2", 130 pound male into combat, but not a 5'7", 160 pound female.

As I think it was kali who said, if they can meet the requirements, they should be able to go.

I do admit that, personally, I think women should be afforded the choice. No, there is no sense to my line of thinking, but I think it all the same.

As for whether they are physically capable, again, there are many women that are. Women enter the police and fire departments, and they also become EMTs' and paramedics where, yes, lifting is a requirement. The military is simply, as usual, a bit behind the times. Sadly, it would seem that is so based on the views of the people, many of whom have voiced opinions similarly behind the times.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Women in combat - 1/27/2013 10:13:00 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

I do think the Army needs to have minimum standards for combat roles that apply across the board regardless of age or gender, but it might not be "X pushups, Y situps". It might be "can march with X lb pack for Y miles", or something else. I think it's got to be based on the kinds of physical activities that the job will actually involve.


If they did that there would be no Army or an Army of maybe a couple hundred at the most. We already are at one of our lowest estimates of those in the military right now. It's just not something most want to do anymore with all the new tech type jobs that are waiting for young kids these days. They have many, many more options available in today's world.


Reading this whole thread reminds me when women were not allowed in colleges because they were not smart enough, they could not pass the muster, they would have to make tests easier for women than men because their brains were not capable of learning the same material lol.

Now there are more women in colleges than men.



< Message edited by littlewonder -- 1/27/2013 10:21:04 PM >


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Everything has changed

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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 12:36:16 AM   
SadistDave


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Men and women are built differently and have, on the whole, different strengths and weaknesses. That's whats kept women out of combat more than anything else. That's not to say that women aren't as capable of fighting, it's simply that women are not well suited to fight in the way modern warfare is fought. Why is that? Because we favor tactics that are designed to exploit the physical attributes of males and the equipment is designed to compliment the capabilities of males.

I like the idea of women in combat. If they want the same rights as men and want to be truly be treated as equals, then women should share the same responsibilities as men when it comes to the defense of the country. However, I do not like the idea of wasting the biological advantages of women in combat roles that are designed for men. If I remember my high school biology correctly, women have 25% or so less lung capacity than men and about half the upper body strength, which puts them at a severe disadvantage in traditional combat roles that require someone to run around all day in body armor with a lot of heavy equipment. I would rather see women placed in their own unique combat roles with gear designed specifically for them. Let's design combat roles for women based on their smaller size, their higher agility, their ability to adapt to extreme temperature changes (better than men), and their improved night vision. Let's consider their higher tolerances for disease and pain. Let's consider the tactical advantages of a lighter more agile soldier.

Tactically, women are naturally a better choice for a lot of combat roles and environments. I don't think there should be a lower standard. I think there should be a completely different standard. That standard should include tactics, gear, and combat roles specifically designed to utilize their natural advantages. Until we do that, women will continue to perform poorly on the battlefield.

-SD-


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To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 6:39:14 AM   
Notsweet


Posts: 873
Joined: 6/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Why not back up your public claim publicly?


Well, since you ask, specifically because there are people here I don't care to communicate with.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 6:41:16 AM   
Notsweet


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SD, this is the smartest thing I've ever seen on the subject.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Men and women are built differently and have, on the whole, different strengths and weaknesses. That's whats kept women out of combat more than anything else. That's not to say that women aren't as capable of fighting, it's simply that women are not well suited to fight in the way modern warfare is fought. Why is that? Because we favor tactics that are designed to exploit the physical attributes of males and the equipment is designed to compliment the capabilities of males.

I like the idea of women in combat. If they want the same rights as men and want to be truly be treated as equals, then women should share the same responsibilities as men when it comes to the defense of the country. However, I do not like the idea of wasting the biological advantages of women in combat roles that are designed for men. If I remember my high school biology correctly, women have 25% or so less lung capacity than men and about half the upper body strength, which puts them at a severe disadvantage in traditional combat roles that require someone to run around all day in body armor with a lot of heavy equipment. I would rather see women placed in their own unique combat roles with gear designed specifically for them. Let's design combat roles for women based on their smaller size, their higher agility, their ability to adapt to extreme temperature changes (better than men), and their improved night vision. Let's consider their higher tolerances for disease and pain. Let's consider the tactical advantages of a lighter more agile soldier.

Tactically, women are naturally a better choice for a lot of combat roles and environments. I don't think there should be a lower standard. I think there should be a completely different standard. That standard should include tactics, gear, and combat roles specifically designed to utilize their natural advantages. Until we do that, women will continue to perform poorly on the battlefield.

-SD-



(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 7:15:56 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because those are stylized combat with rules that favor extended bouts where strength and physical resilience matter.

Yeah really... good thing being in combat doesn't.

K.


I'll take speed and know how any day.

And you served in hand-to-hand military combat where and when?

Vietnam Veteran

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 8:59:58 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Men and women are built differently and have, on the whole, different strengths and weaknesses. That's whats kept women out of combat more than anything else. That's not to say that women aren't as capable of fighting, it's simply that women are not well suited to fight in the way modern warfare is fought. Why is that? Because we favor tactics that are designed to exploit the physical attributes of males and the equipment is designed to compliment the capabilities of males.

I like the idea of women in combat. If they want the same rights as men and want to be truly be treated as equals, then women should share the same responsibilities as men when it comes to the defense of the country. However, I do not like the idea of wasting the biological advantages of women in combat roles that are designed for men. If I remember my high school biology correctly, women have 25% or so less lung capacity than men and about half the upper body strength, which puts them at a severe disadvantage in traditional combat roles that require someone to run around all day in body armor with a lot of heavy equipment. I would rather see women placed in their own unique combat roles with gear designed specifically for them. Let's design combat roles for women based on their smaller size, their higher agility, their ability to adapt to extreme temperature changes (better than men), and their improved night vision. Let's consider their higher tolerances for disease and pain. Let's consider the tactical advantages of a lighter more agile soldier.

Tactically, women are naturally a better choice for a lot of combat roles and environments. I don't think there should be a lower standard. I think there should be a completely different standard. That standard should include tactics, gear, and combat roles specifically designed to utilize their natural advantages. Until we do that, women will continue to perform poorly on the battlefield.

-SD-



Thank you. I would hate to be known as the only female anti-this.

Males, generally build up a high power, medium endurance / burst power, short endurance / fast recuperation profiles with more upper body muscle power and stronger legs.
When you put females on similar training regimen, you generally end up with lower burst/sustained power levels with comparable or more endurance and much much higher endurance reserves. Lower body output is also lower than a male's but since the female chassis is lighter to begin with, they are abler to keep up movement wise.

The main problem starts with load balance; from experience as a log chief for various nature trekkers, I can confirm that up to a certain point around 35/40% body weight, females can endure and pretty much ignore loads regardless of the distance (if they can march/move x distance, they can do it with load without any problems).

The problem is the woman's original weight; your average fit woman will barely/rarely weigh over 60 kgs/ 132ish lbs, which translates this useful quirk as useless as far as infantry loads are concerned.

Given equal chance or even better physical prep, they cannot carry basic load, they cannot perform necessary feats of strength, they cost more log to keep operational (female reproductive organs cannot take the abuse neandarthals (males) suffer regularly) and most importantly; they need more supervision and human oversight to keep ticking.


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(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 100
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