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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 10:15:35 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm certainly no expert on this, but it seems to me that throughout history, there have been more than just a couple "diminutive" men who were drafted, and who were in the infantry throughout history. So I can honestly say I'm a bit confused that we can send a 5'2", 130 pound male into combat, but not a 5'7", 160 pound female.

As I think it was kali who said, if they can meet the requirements, they should be able to go.

I do admit that, personally, I think women should be afforded the choice. No, there is no sense to my line of thinking, but I think it all the same.

As for whether they are physically capable, again, there are many women that are. Women enter the police and fire departments, and they also become EMTs' and paramedics where, yes, lifting is a requirement. The military is simply, as usual, a bit behind the times. Sadly, it would seem that is so based on the views of the people, many of whom have voiced opinions similarly behind the times.

I can honestly say I'm not at all confused that we can send a 5' 2", 130 pound male into combat but not a 5' 7", 160 pound female -- the smaller male's inherantly superior physicality will allow him to carry more and carry it faster and further than the larger female, and the male's inherantly more situational demanding physical response

Back in 1976 the United States Military Academy (West Point) found out that women could not meet the same physical requirements as men, therefore "social justice" politicians forced the Pentagon to force West Point to lower the physical requirements for woman so they could attend. Anyone who thinks it's only about physical requirements is too ignorant to have a valid opinion, to wit: "Certain things still scare me. The biggest is war. What will happen if I go to war? I'll probably be killed. The first summer we learned a code of conduct in case we're captured, and they showed us motivational films—I came out of Patton saying, if that's what they want me to be like, forget it. I thought he was totally insane. That's something that scares me about West Point. I wouldn't do it over." -- Kathy Ann Wildey, West Point Class of 1980 And what did Patton want West Pointers to be like that she considered so insane and scary about West Point that she wouldn't do it over -- Patton wanted West Pointers to believe that their purpose in war was not to die for their country but, rather, to make the other poor bastard die for their country. Insanity? Scary? What's truely insanity and scary is that this woman became and served as an Officer in the US Army.

Because the current Commander In Chief of our military not only cancelled military assistance to our facility in Benghazi but also fired a General and an Admiral for having initiated military assistance per long-standing military protocol, I do admit that, personally, I think every woman (man and GLBT also for that matter) who voted for the current Commander In Chief should volunteer/be required to serve in combat before their chosen Commander In Chief leaves office so when they are facing imminent death they can take their final breath begging their chosen Commander In Chief to save them. Yes, there is sense to my line of thinking and I think it applies to every issue -- put your money (life) where your mouth is (vote was).

I think it would behoove those who have never and will never serve in the military to keep their opinons about the military to themselves, lest those who have served use facts to prove the former's opinions just and only that...opinions. The former are simply, as usual, ignoramouses denegrating that which they know nothing about because they can't refute the facts.

Army Brat
Vietnam Veteran

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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 10:57:12 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, except the asswipe contained therein is that it was the baggers in the house that refused to pay for the assistance requested by the state department.

Other than that is all pretty much meaningless shit spewing.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 11:00:05 AM   
Notsweet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


You might want to try reality. Ambassador Stevens was never physically under the control of the attackers and died of smoke inhalation.


Whatever you say.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/28/2013 8:27:39 PM   
czarski


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The main concern here is not female physiology, but male psychology. You can't possibly prevent the eternal thing happening again - males competing to impress females. Naturally, there will be the reverse dynamic - women competing to impress men. There will be egos colliding, animosities, jealousies. I don't see much room for the team spirit here. Of course, if you bring a bunch of men and women together and immediately throw them into combat, they all might cooperate quite well - they hadn't had time to develop affections, competition, jealousy. But 99% of soldiers' time isn't combat. Another problem is chivalry. Men will be taking additional risks trying to support their female fellows, no matter how much your prohibit it. I remember the Star Troopers movie by Verhoeven, male and female soldiers fighting, living, bathing together. But the movie is a dystopia. In a culture where offering to carry a heavy bag for a woman is a mandate, you will have male soldiers killed in combat during an unnecessary act of chivalry for a woman.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 6:28:28 AM   
xBullx


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-fast reply-

Sorry I haven't been around for a while, while I suspect most haven't missed me, I'm curious for some way left perspective on some of the recent issues; so I've been doing some reading.

On to the topic:

What about the rights of men in all of this? I never hear talk about this.

I was in Recon, while our missions varied, at times we operated in small teams, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep behind enemey lines. Just ponder on that and all the various senarios that could take place in such a situation.

Imagine my "6" man team pinned down by a platoon sized element(30ish), we get a bunch of the sum bitches, but with about 7 or 8 of the enemy left and a couple of us wounded, we are engaged in close quarters combat and this is something scripted by Hollywood for a fantasy movie. Additional fact of import, there are no referees, this most likely won't be over in seconds as someone suggested, we're already exhausted and at times like this rules are for dead men.................and women.

I just wanted to add one more thing, In real life and away from the bloviation of the "modern" world, men living where the foot meets the dust, hope for the best, but plan for the worst. While there are women that I have met that are very capable, skilled and down right vicious, I have more than personal reasons to be against this.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/29/2013 6:35:14 AM >


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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 10:54:40 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Another problem is chivalry. Men will be taking additional risks trying to support their female fellows, no matter how much your prohibit it. I remember the Star Troopers movie by Verhoeven, male and female soldiers fighting, living, bathing together. But the movie is a dystopia. In a culture where offering to carry a heavy bag for a woman is a mandate, you will have male soldiers killed in combat during an unnecessary act of chivalry for a woman.


In my four years of non combat in the USAF, I only encountered one man for whom the impulse towards chivalry while I was in uniform was a problem. I'd be interested to know how this plays out in combat situations, and if it would be chivalry or a genderless protect-the-pact.

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(in reply to czarski)
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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 10:55:55 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

The main concern here is not female physiology, but male psychology.


Indeed.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 11:03:37 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
In my four years of non combat in the USAF, I only encountered one man for whom the impulse towards chivalry while I was in uniform was a problem. I'd be interested to know how this plays out in combat situations, and if it would be chivalry or a genderless protect-the-pact.


Interesting. I wonder how that plays out with armed female law enforcement personnel in the USA? When LE organisations were mainly or exclusively male, were there objections on similar, 'chivalry-based', grounds to females joining them and playing the same roles as the males?

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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 11:58:10 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Interesting. I wonder how that plays out with armed female law enforcement personnel in the USA? When LE organisations were mainly or exclusively male, were there objections on similar, 'chivalry-based', grounds to females joining them and playing the same roles as the males?


Not to minimize the Law Enforcement sector, but the comparison isn't all that similar to the Combat Arms troops designed and expected to engage, if necessary an overwhelming force.

I might add, it would be worth comparing SWAT Units though, I'm just not sure what the female ratio or requirements are. It is however still difficult to compare the occupations.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/29/2013 12:11:41 PM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 12:16:15 PM   
mnottertail


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Look, if a woman is good enough to suck a dick for america, shes good enough to fight.

And when all is said and done, when they get shot they die like we do, and the lucky ones keep breathing and shitting like we do.   And thats about all you gotta worry about in combat  roles.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 1:32:53 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Look, if a woman is good enough to suck a dick for america, shes good enough to fight.

And when all is said and done, when they get shot they die like we do, and the lucky ones keep breathing and shitting like we do.   And thats about all you gotta worry about in combat  roles.



I suppose that might be a valid point from our comfy couches here in the heartland. I will say that comparing combat operations to sucking cock is a bit............well, I am aware of your brand of humor so I'll just smirk and leave it at that. Better yet, I'll sit here a bit looking befuddled and then do one of those priceless snickers that the fellow Sheldon has captured so many of us with.

I do have one further question. Will this bring our nation to open Selective Services to our daughters? Maidens and the lottery, it sounds simply........mid-evil. Almost makes the sadist in me, whimsical!

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 1:38:29 PM   
mnottertail


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Look, Bull, as a vet there was this deal about drinking age.  Old enough to go to vietnam and fight for my country but not old enough to drink a beer?

Play on that.  That is where the joke kinda eminated from, buddy.

Men can get shot at and live and die.  Women can get shot at and live and die.   women prisoners can get raped, so?  (someone got any solid proof that men prisoners have never been raped?) We have shit like electronics and hydraulics and that so the strength shit is out..........grunts?  shit I know guys that could barely lift their own sack at the start, and got to where they could get it done.   women can too.   It dont take much of anything to shoot and be shot at and shit your pants.  If they want to be out there defending in the foxholes.............fuck it.  Go to it.    

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/29/2013 1:39:16 PM >


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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 2:32:32 PM   
xBullx


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Oh, I see where you're going with this Ron, I just don't find it quite that simple. Concurrently, I'm going to assume my grandsons will follow in the footsteps of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers. They could give two shits about this subject right now and frankly, that's fine. None are 5 yet. However, since none of one want to comment seriously on the Selective Services issue and other issues that will effect standards that will be reduced.

It isn't all warm and fuzzy when it comes to females in the service now and that isn't going to change anytime soon just because you compare combat and blowjobs.

I take my war fighting serious. Women do ok, but you can add all the technology you want, when the shit hits the fan I have to know my battle buddies have my back, can pull their share of the load and not just in theory or semantics.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 2:45:48 PM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, all well and fine, and there are women I trust to have my back.  Selective service?  Like it better than allvol you generally get better people. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 4:54:37 PM   
Powergamz1


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On the physical strength issue, firefighting had it share of resistance to bringing in women, citing many of the same concerns raised here... That smoke seems to have dissipated in the face of reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Interesting. I wonder how that plays out with armed female law enforcement personnel in the USA? When LE organisations were mainly or exclusively male, were there objections on similar, 'chivalry-based', grounds to females joining them and playing the same roles as the males?


Not to minimize the Law Enforcement sector, but the comparison isn't all that similar to the Combat Arms troops designed and expected to engage, if necessary an overwhelming force.

I might add, it would be worth comparing SWAT Units though, I'm just not sure what the female ratio or requirements are. It is however still difficult to compare the occupations.



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RE: Women in combat - 1/29/2013 4:57:12 PM   
Powergamz1


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Patton notwithstanding, the term 'cannon fodder' is gender neutral.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Look, if a woman is good enough to suck a dick for america, shes good enough to fight.

And when all is said and done, when they get shot they die like we do, and the lucky ones keep breathing and shitting like we do.   And thats about all you gotta worry about in combat  roles.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: Women in combat - 1/30/2013 12:45:58 AM   
imdoingitagain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Oh, I see where you're going with this Ron, I just don't find it quite that simple. Concurrently, I'm going to assume my grandsons will follow in the footsteps of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers. They could give two shits about this subject right now and frankly, that's fine. None are 5 yet. However, since none of one want to comment seriously on the Selective Services issue and other issues that will effect standards that will be reduced.

It isn't all warm and fuzzy when it comes to females in the service now and that isn't going to change anytime soon just because you compare combat and blowjobs.

I take my war fighting serious. Women do ok, but you can add all the technology you want, when the shit hits the fan I have to know my battle buddies have my back, can pull their share of the load and not just in theory or semantics.


Let me stop you right there. Did you really just use "battle buddies" on this thread? What's next? "Hooah"?

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Women in combat - 1/30/2013 5:41:21 AM   
Powergamz1


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'Hooah!' is soooo last movie. Now it's 'Warrior mindset'...



quote:

ORIGINAL: imdoingitagain


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Oh, I see where you're going with this Ron, I just don't find it quite that simple. Concurrently, I'm going to assume my grandsons will follow in the footsteps of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers. They could give two shits about this subject right now and frankly, that's fine. None are 5 yet. However, since none of one want to comment seriously on the Selective Services issue and other issues that will effect standards that will be reduced.

It isn't all warm and fuzzy when it comes to females in the service now and that isn't going to change anytime soon just because you compare combat and blowjobs.

I take my war fighting serious. Women do ok, but you can add all the technology you want, when the shit hits the fan I have to know my battle buddies have my back, can pull their share of the load and not just in theory or semantics.


Let me stop you right there. Did you really just use "battle buddies" on this thread? What's next? "Hooah"?



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: Women in combat - 1/30/2013 5:48:59 AM   
imdoingitagain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

'Hooah!' is soooo last movie. Now it's 'Warrior mindset'...




It is entirely possible that I hate you, now...

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RE: Women in combat - 1/30/2013 8:24:15 AM   
Nosathro


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Something to consider....


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/former-marine-corps-general-women-combat-long-overdue-123830231.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130125-women-combat-world-australia-israel-canada-norway/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/01/25/the-all-female-militias-of-syria/

(in reply to imdoingitagain)
Profile   Post #: 120
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