RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/4/2013 12:39:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

drive by quips are cheap.

prove it!

start of story

Find a case to prove it didn't besides wingnut bullshit.
You're the one making outrageous claims in defiance of proven fact, so the onus of proof is on you.




BamaD -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/4/2013 12:47:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

That it was an elaborate front for red cross and other " agencies" and to make the "new internees" think it was a decent place to be placed, didnt occur to you huh. or did your " tin foil hat" block out that information?
There is more evidence for that than that they were a happy place... I m guessing you think when the allies POW camps were fungrounds too huh

Fucking idiotic frame of reference there AGAIN.

WHAT A joke

Yes he got his proof on POW camps from the documentary series "Hogans Heroes"




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/4/2013 5:54:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I told you I make no claim, I demand proof,

Bubba, you has been a sayin' dat ya never denied da holocaust! ROFL loadsa folks must remember dat ya wuz denying da holocaust before. If yer memory has been a' fading da ya need some cites or wat cuze i'll mosey to da search button? [:)]

I have met holocaust survivors, does that count?
Of course holocaust denial is antisemitic, but that does not mean that everyone who fell for it is antisemitic

Agreed but can someone make racist statements wit out bein' racist? Yup i reckon so. so da same thing i reckon as wit anti-semitism. Da statements r still loaded wit a racist r anti-semitic value an' it is dat value dat most folks r clued into dat push them in da first place.




BamaD -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/4/2013 5:58:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
I told you I make no claim, I demand proof,

Bubba, you has been a sayin' dat ya never denied da holocaust! ROFL loadsa folks must remember dat ya wuz denying da holocaust before. If yer memory has been a' fading da ya need some cites or wat cuze i'll mosey to da search button? [:)]

I have met holocaust survivors, does that count?
Of course holocaust denial is antisemitic, but that does not mean that everyone who fell for it is antisemitic

Agreed but can someone make racist statements wit out bein' racist? Yup i reckon so. so da same thing i reckon as wit anti-semitism. Da statements r still loaded wit a racist r anti-semitic value an' it is dat value dat most folks r clued into dat push them in da first place.

Yes I know just because they think they have discovered a truth, haveing been deluded by the truely antisemitic does not make them any less dangeous. I wasn't saying they were innocent just deserving of a lesser hell.




Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/5/2013 9:53:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

That it was an elaborate front for red cross and other " agencies" and to make the "new internees" think it was a decent place to be placed, didnt occur to you huh. or did your " tin foil hat" block out that information?
There is more evidence for that than that they were a happy place... I m guessing you think when the allies POW camps were fungrounds too huh

Fucking idiotic frame of reference there AGAIN.

WHAT A joke

Yes he got his proof on POW camps from the documentary series "Hogans Heroes"


DNA Tests: Hitler Descended From Jews, Africans








JeffBC -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/5/2013 10:49:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Man, you're really close but I don't think you can quite make the stretch to antisemitism. You're on the mark with the denying history part. You just can't make it all the way to it specifically being a statement that people of Jewish faith, and only Jewish faith, are liars. Denying the Holocaust would also include disputing people of all faiths that saw camps with their own eyes, including those liberating the camps. That would even go so far as evidence presented at trials for war crimes.

*nods* I see a big difference between hating jews and questioning my government. While it seems implausible to me, I could at least tentatively agree to the possibility that it's a fake. But that would be more me hating the US government than hating jews. Stipulating the actuality of such a hoax, then I'd assume the vast majority of jews were also fooled.




thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/5/2013 2:34:41 PM)

RealOne rarely quotes from the source, and in this case it is because one of the sources quoted in his article, Jean-Paul Mulders, is on record saying that his research cannot be inferred to suggest he was Jewish, merely that he wasn't Aryan. Misleading newspaper headlines don't constitute evidence. Particularly when they suggest Leo Frankenburger is rumoured to be Adolf's Grandfather, or indeed that he ever even existed. I stand by my statement. There is no evidence Hitler was Jewish.

Besides, as the Fuhrer Hitler got to choose his own definition of Jewish in the Nuremburg Laws. This was 3 or more Jewish Grandparents. That is the reason why Nazi officials were allowed to have some Jewish blood. Nazi policy towards the Jewish population of Europe was ideological rather than ethnological, but the choice of the Jewish population as the "other" was certainly based in antisemitism.




Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/5/2013 6:39:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

RealOne rarely quotes from the source, and in this case it is because one of the sources quoted in his article, Jean-Paul Mulders, is on record saying that his research cannot be inferred to suggest he was Jewish, merely that he wasn't Aryan. Misleading newspaper headlines don't constitute evidence. Particularly when they suggest Leo Frankenburger is rumoured to be Adolf's Grandfather, or indeed that he ever even existed. I stand by my statement. There is no evidence Hitler was Jewish.

Besides, as the Fuhrer Hitler got to choose his own definition of Jewish in the Nuremburg Laws. This was 3 or more Jewish Grandparents. That is the reason why Nazi officials were allowed to have some Jewish blood. Nazi policy towards the Jewish population of Europe was ideological rather than ethnological, but the choice of the Jewish population as the "other" was certainly based in antisemitism.


YOU NOR ANY OF YOUR PALS HAVE PROVEN HUMANS WERE GASSED! WAITING!

and neither does a pile of bodies over there, a crematory on the left and gas chambers on the right constitute gassed humans or a holocaust.

Especially since it was the only way they had available to them to kill lice and prevent disease.

no matter how you want to paint that picture the markers are what they are and no one gives a shit about his being a bastard child.

No I do not post references because I am not going to fucking around making shre they have the jewish good housekeeping stamp of approval.

it was well known even during the war that Hitler had jewish blood,

No it was not initiated by antisemitism.

As usual it was the fucking british in conjunction with jewish zionists that were encircling and ruining what little was left of the german economy after splitting germany in 2 and not even allow for a 1 mile wide strip so germans could travel between to the 2 sections. Britain and america orchestrated the war, thwarted every peace offering hitler made.

Finally the jews drew the last straw.


[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/dailyexpress1933.gif[/image]

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/war.jpg[/image]


what happens when the country of someone of a certain race declares war?








Well lets take a look at what the fucking GOOD GUYS DID IN AMERICA!


[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/japs/pic.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/japs/prison5.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/japs/101207-internment-camp-hmed-115agrid-8x2.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/japs/japaneseamericaninternment.jpg[/image]





Japanese Americans in Concentration Camps


Our people were forced into concentration camps and their lives where ripped away from them. One of the reasons that they threw us into the terrible living conditions was that they believed that we were spies for Japan during World War II, which in the end only ten people were convicted of spying for Japan, all of whom were Caucasian. The sudden attack of Pearl Harbor increased a fear of our people. Members of congress escalated fear of us among the American people. As early as January 1942, there was talk of imprisoning us. Many whites were motivated by economic self-interest and were determined to destroy our businesses, which they saw as competition.

It all began with police raids, where they were frantically looking for those of us, whom they thought to be spies. More than two thousand of us were arrested without any evidence of disloyalty. Our businesses were forced to close down, the police were illegally detaining us, evicting us from our homes, and firing us from our jobs.

In the first phase of federal action that was taken against us, we along with anyone else whose ancestry was linked to countries at war with the U.S., where moved out of our areas and our travel was restricted. On February 19, 1942 phase two began when President Franklin Roosevelt issued executive order 9066. It stated that military commanders could designate areas that they could exclude us from living there. Areas such as the western parts of California, Washington, Oregon, and southern parts of Arizona were areas that were restricted from us. We were the only ones who were detained in assembly centers, in large numbers, and later transported under guard to barbed-wire concentration camps.

Our businesses had to be sold quickly and at a loss. The only crime that we ever did was to be perceived by whites as racially different. We faced many different forms of racial oppression behind the barbwire. In one camp the administration arranged for us to be hired out to white personnel, as domestics, at the low wage of thirty dollars per month. Part of this money was taken from us for recreational facilities for white personnel. On some of the camps some of us were given jobs as barber’s and cafeteria workers. We were paid as little as sixteen dollars a week.

In the camps we didn’t really have any of our belongings because we were told that we could only bring with us what we could carry. We were taken away from our jobs, homes, places of worship, and schools, and even separated from our families. We were forced to live in these small barracks with hundreds of other people. The living quarters were extremely tight, with people basically sleeping on top of us. We had to eat and sleep when they told us to, and of course the food was barely edible. We were restricted to these tiny perimeters in the camp, surrounded by armed military personnel. Many of the camps that we lived in were located in cold areas, where we would freeze and be surrounded by extreme amounts of dust.



On January 2, 1945, the Executive Order was finally rescinded and all Japanese American prisoners were allowed to leave. However, historians point out that this was still long before the Japanese surrender and during a time of the war when, arguably, the fighting was at its most vicious. Therefore, the fact that these alleged spies were released at the height of the war was further evidence against the argument that their imprisonment was an essential security measure.

In 1944, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Executive Order in the famous Korematsu case. However, although in early 1980s, the Supreme Court officially overturned this decision after documents were discovered which showed that the government withheld important information from the Supreme Court that the Army altered and destroyed key evidence that contradicted the argument that Japanese Americans constitued a security threat.

of course the government would NEVER do anything like that regarding nazis! No never ever never!
nope never.










Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/5/2013 7:09:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I have met holocaust survivors, does that count?
Of course holocaust denial is antisemitic, but that does not mean that everyone who fell for it is antisemitic



no it does not.

tests were done for gassed humans and none were found.

That counts.

When you get people both giving contradictory testimony you turn to the evidence.

No mass human gassing was found in the camps.

Mass typhus for the german population, including many of the ss men and the prisoners? Yeh that they found.





Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 4:51:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
tests were done for gassed humans and none were found.

Cite.

quote:


No mass human gassing was found in the camps.

Mass typhus for the german population, including many of the ss men and the prisoners? Yeh that they found.

Cite.




Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 6:47:19 AM)

larson gordon

barton is another one






YN -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 7:55:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
tests were done for gassed humans and none were found.

Cite.

quote:


No mass human gassing was found in the camps.

Mass typhus for the german population, including many of the ss men and the prisoners? Yeh that they found.

Cite.



The Germans were famous for cremating their victims at the sites of their gas chambers and also for proudly photographing this demon mentored series of outrages.

That any of the victim's ashes, even if they could be discovered and then separated, could then be inspected for credible evidence of or against cyanide poisoning after such incineration and disposal is inherently incredible.




Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 8:48:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
tests were done for gassed humans and none were found.

Cite.

quote:


No mass human gassing was found in the camps.

Mass typhus for the german population, including many of the ss men and the prisoners? Yeh that they found.

Cite.



The Germans were famous for cremating their victims at the sites of their gas chambers and also for proudly photographing this demon mentored series of outrages.

That any of the victim's ashes, even if they could be discovered and then separated, could then be inspected for credible evidence of or against cyanide poisoning after such incineration and disposal is inherently incredible.



no shit?

I am still waiting for ANYONE TO CITE IT!

All I need is the document number ANYTHING other than all the bullshit "UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINIONS" I have seen so far.

Anything at all, I am not getting any younger here.

[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/notgettingyoungerjpg.jpg[/image]




BamaD -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 9:54:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I have met holocaust survivors, does that count?
Of course holocaust denial is antisemitic, but that does not mean that everyone who fell for it is antisemitic



no it does not.

tests were done for gassed humans and none were found.

That counts.

When you get people both giving contradictory testimony you turn to the evidence.

No mass human gassing was found in the camps.

Mass typhus for the german population, including many of the ss men and the prisoners? Yeh that they found.



The fact that I met people who were actually there who were victims of the holacaust does not count?
Then you are so ingrossed in this antisemitic myth that nothing will influence you let alone convince you.




thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 10:07:25 AM)

What on earth makes you think I'm basing my opinion on what the government tells me? Have you ever read anything Ian Kershaw has written? That's a genuine question, I'm curious as to what you actually make of the 'Working towards the Fuhrer' theory. I'm not suggesting that the Nazi's had the holocaust planned out from the moment they entered office, but Krystallnacht, the Nuremburg laws, the T4 program, the Warsaw ghetto, Mein Kampf, the Wannsee conference, Eichmann's testimony, Hoss' autobiography, provide fairly compelling evidence that the Nazi government took an interest in the Jewish population that went beyond 'political prisoner' status. Nazi policy towards the Jews was radicalised over time, and became increasingly irrational as the players in the dictatorship sought to win Hitler's favour.

That's an exciting headline, but the rest of the article makes it clear that this is an economic war in response to Hitler's perceived antisemitism, and therefore not really equatable with Pearl Harbour. Good guys vs bad guys is a fairly simplistic way of looking at WW2, I am arguing Nazi policy towards the Jews was antisemitic and you are arguing it isn't. I don't see how talking about American camps is relevant to that debate. For what its worth, it was an appalling miscarriage of justice. Western governments have committed some of the worst atrocities in history, and the Nazis certainly were not the only antisemitic government to have ever existed. That doesn't make it ok though.

As regards evidence of gassing, any chance you fancy reading this? http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#vi
I know its very polemical, but it does genuinely address the question of forensic samples regarding Zyklon B, and it cites all of its sources so you can check from where his argument comes from, if you were so inclined. I've read 'Denying the Holocaust' amongst others, again a very polemical text that nevertheless has an answer for every argument I have read that doubts the holocaust.

Hitler broke the terms of the Treaty of Versailles over and over again in the 1930's. It was one of the reasons he was so popular. Yes, it was a fucking appalling treaty which in hindsight crippled Germany economically, politically and culturally, as well as allowing Hitler to come to power in the first place, but breaking the terms of the Treaty was still aggressive behaviour.




jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 10:43:27 AM)

Every claim that Realone has tried to back up with links to facts have ended up going to antisemitic websites, which now gets his posts pulled.

Since none of his claims can be linked to unbiased individuals or groups, he is basically proving his antisemitic views and thus should just shut up.

as for my post about Hitler having a Jewish grandfather, I have to retract that. There is no proof of this to verify since his grandmother had his father out of wedlock.

As far as DNA tests, the key words in all the reputable sources are "May have had" not "Did have" but I may point out that those markers do not prove anything, and considering Hitlers physical features, if they were there, they are many generations in the past, not recent to his birth.

Now less reputable sources regarding those tests do not use the disclaimer I noted above, and thus cannot be counted as fact.

Geneticists sound note of caution over DNA ancestry testing has some interesting things to say about the DNA tests to prove ancestry. There is some question about the accuracy of the tests and other points to the claims made by various companies that say they can prove ancestry.

So basically, Realone's claim of absolute proof, is bogus, further proving his agenda.

Since he refuses to cite reputable sources for his claims, I would suggest that people stop responding to his posts at all.




BamaD -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 12:49:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Every claim that Realone has tried to back up with links to facts have ended up going to antisemitic websites, which now gets his posts pulled.

Since none of his claims can be linked to unbiased individuals or groups, he is basically proving his antisemitic views and thus should just shut up.

as for my post about Hitler having a Jewish grandfather, I have to retract that. There is no proof of this to verify since his grandmother had his father out of wedlock.

As far as DNA tests, the key words in all the reputable sources are "May have had" not "Did have" but I may point out that those markers do not prove anything, and considering Hitlers physical features, if they were there, they are many generations in the past, not recent to his birth.

Now less reputable sources regarding those tests do not use the disclaimer I noted above, and thus cannot be counted as fact.

Geneticists sound note of caution over DNA ancestry testing has some interesting things to say about the DNA tests to prove ancestry. There is some question about the accuracy of the tests and other points to the claims made by various companies that say they can prove ancestry.

So basically, Realone's claim of absolute proof, is bogus, further proving his agenda.

Since he refuses to cite reputable sources for his claims, I would suggest that people stop responding to his posts at all.

I admit that some of my sources are not unbiased being survivors of death camps or relatives of non-survivors but what would people intered there know about any attempts at extermination that were made.




jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 1:45:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Every claim that Realone has tried to back up with links to facts have ended up going to antisemitic websites, which now gets his posts pulled.

Since none of his claims can be linked to unbiased individuals or groups, he is basically proving his antisemitic views and thus should just shut up.

as for my post about Hitler having a Jewish grandfather, I have to retract that. There is no proof of this to verify since his grandmother had his father out of wedlock.

As far as DNA tests, the key words in all the reputable sources are "May have had" not "Did have" but I may point out that those markers do not prove anything, and considering Hitlers physical features, if they were there, they are many generations in the past, not recent to his birth.

Now less reputable sources regarding those tests do not use the disclaimer I noted above, and thus cannot be counted as fact.

Geneticists sound note of caution over DNA ancestry testing has some interesting things to say about the DNA tests to prove ancestry. There is some question about the accuracy of the tests and other points to the claims made by various companies that say they can prove ancestry.

So basically, Realone's claim of absolute proof, is bogus, further proving his agenda.

Since he refuses to cite reputable sources for his claims, I would suggest that people stop responding to his posts at all.

I admit that some of my sources are not unbiased being survivors of death camps or relatives of non-survivors but what would people intered there know about any attempts at extermination that were made.



That is quite different.

It seems strange that people who deny the holocaust also claim that the 16 miles of filing cabinets filled with records were forged by Jews and the allies between the end of the war in Europe and the start of the Nuremberg war crimes trials in November of 1945.

Which, by the shear volume of SS documentation would be impossible to create.

People who deny the holocaust are ignorant, terminally stupid and should be prevented from breeding, IMO. Of course that is basic eugenics, and therefore a crime in and of itself.

Maybe we could round them all up and put em in a luxury condo development inside the caldera of a super volcano that may or may not erupt within the next thousand years, deny them communication to the outside world, limited internet access, reality tv shows only to be allowed to be transmitted into the complex, and of course provide them with catered gourmet meals.

Then if there is an eruption, oops. I mean we have a popular National Park inside the Caldera of one super volcano, and there are three others inside the US.




Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 2:07:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
People who deny the holocaust are ignorant, terminally stupid and should be prevented from breeding, IMO. Of course that is basic eugenics, and therefore a crime in and of itself.



How incredibly vile for someone who claims to advocate free speech. Just a show huh?

You talk about the holocaust as if everyone is supposed to have some genetic intuitive knowledge as to what the fuck that is.

So without the usual circular reasoning tell us, Jeff, what is the SUBSTANTIAL definition of holocaust, and precisely how it came to apply to ww2.

Do you even understand the question?

I can explain it in more detail if you do not.

then should you get that far which I expect you will simply impasse, then in addition what precisely do you think is being denied.








BamaD -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 2:10:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Every claim that Realone has tried to back up with links to facts have ended up going to antisemitic websites, which now gets his posts pulled.

Since none of his claims can be linked to unbiased individuals or groups, he is basically proving his antisemitic views and thus should just shut up.

as for my post about Hitler having a Jewish grandfather, I have to retract that. There is no proof of this to verify since his grandmother had his father out of wedlock.

As far as DNA tests, the key words in all the reputable sources are "May have had" not "Did have" but I may point out that those markers do not prove anything, and considering Hitlers physical features, if they were there, they are many generations in the past, not recent to his birth.

Now less reputable sources regarding those tests do not use the disclaimer I noted above, and thus cannot be counted as fact.

Geneticists sound note of caution over DNA ancestry testing has some interesting things to say about the DNA tests to prove ancestry. There is some question about the accuracy of the tests and other points to the claims made by various companies that say they can prove ancestry.

So basically, Realone's claim of absolute proof, is bogus, further proving his agenda.

Since he refuses to cite reputable sources for his claims, I would suggest that people stop responding to his posts at all.

I admit that some of my sources are not unbiased being survivors of death camps or relatives of non-survivors but what would people intered there know about any attempts at extermination that were made.



That is quite different.

It seems strange that people who deny the holocaust also claim that the 16 miles of filing cabinets filled with records were forged by Jews and the allies between the end of the war in Europe and the start of the Nuremberg war crimes trials in November of 1945.

Which, by the shear volume of SS documentation would be impossible to create.

People who deny the holocaust are ignorant, terminally stupid and should be prevented from breeding, IMO. Of course that is basic eugenics, and therefore a crime in and of itself.

Maybe we could round them all up and put em in a luxury condo development inside the caldera of a super volcano that may or may not erupt within the next thousand years, deny them communication to the outside world, limited internet access, reality tv shows only to be allowed to be transmitted into the complex, and of course provide them with catered gourmet meals.

Then if there is an eruption, oops. I mean we have a popular National Park inside the Caldera of one super volcano, and there are three others inside the US.

I don't even know why I look at this thread the very basis that someone here is working on is so vile it is hard to envision, and I can invision pretty vile.




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