RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic?

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Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 10:22:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScaryKids I don't see holocaust denial as antisemitic, as long as the person holding that belief is respectful of the beliefs of others, especially in attempts to reveal what basis they may have for this belief. We all have rights to our opinions, even those who don't agree with us or see things the way we do. again I ask what is an armenian, arab, palestinian or muslim whatever who IS A SEMITE BUT NOT A JEW when he denies the holocaust? You didnt like my new word? Anti-Selfer?

tobaccoman -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 10:31:38 PM)
They weren't death camps. They were labor camps. They were sent there to work, not to die. Like I said, if death was the main objective, why not just shoot them after the identification was confirmed? It's a waste of resources and time. The majority of the deaths in these camps didn't occur until the last year or two of the war after Allied bombing of ground and rail transportation routes. Yes, none of us were there, but knowledge of crematorium procedures with regards to the time taken to cremate a body and how long these machines are able to run before needing to be cleaned confirms the holocaust impossible to have happened. Here's a good link with a Q & A about the holocaust http://www.666blacksun.org/satanic-national-socialism/questions-and-answers-on-the-holocaust/ quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum so let's just say there were no gassing and burning (for the big fact is that none of us were there and have a 100% solid way of knowing for sure)- if a good number of people died in these camps from poor conditions (that many people in such close quarters ), that is still a death camp. Clearly, these people were sent to die. Nobody could have been THAT oblivious to the unlivable conditions, and yet insisted on shipping more people in- in hopes things would work themselves out for the better. This is just another way to look at it if somebody doesn't care for the blatant murder version. Just my opinion looking at both sides. quote: ORIGINAL: tobaccoman Here's a very rough draft of what happened. Hitler came to power. He opposed the jews for what he considered was the continued bankrupting and corruption of his country by jewish banks and jewish owned interest. He wanted the jews out of germany. He developed labor camps to isolate the jews and force them to work off the debt that he considered they were responsible for. Did people die in the camps? Yes. Mainly from typhus, which these so called "gas chambers" and zyklon B were use to decontaminate. Were the conditions in the camp bad? Yes, mainly from allied bombing of routes of transportation into and out of the camps, thus making any type of deliveries much more difficult. Ask the question....why waste the time to feed, clothe, shelter, and track people who you want to ultimately exterminate? It makes no sense. quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum The please, explain what took place. quote: ORIGINAL: tobaccoman the holocaust ie holohoax never happened. there is a huge amount of historical evidence to prove it was a fraud. it's amazing how people just accept this as fact.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 11:09:43 PM)
[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/nogas002.jpg[/image] translated: [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/nogas003.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/nogas004.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/nogas005.jpg[/image] its hard for people to imagine how grossly we have been lied to. Well not so much back then as within the last 20 - 30 years. Even social security was advertized by the government as an insurance policy and its nothing of the sort. They used to simply lead you to erroneous conclusions now ever the last 20 - 30 years they outright lie to you and its politics as usual because there is so much money to be fleeced from the people it unimaginable. interesting that most of the naughty brits are not in this historical debate and war that they caused and forced upon all of europe.

jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 11:14:26 PM)
List of Nazi concentration camps This is all based on the physical evidence gathered by Ally armies, (or manufactured for some) and on ss records which occupy 16 miles worth of filing cabinets. I am still waiting for someone to prove those records are fakes.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 11:23:42 PM)
the germans used the words evacuation and extermination interchangeably often in the same sentence and with regard to deportation. westerners and the british and zionists wanted to force germany into complete and total economic capitulation siezed the opportunity to fix their own meaning for propaganda purposes taking the what hitler wrote for evacuation and deportation language in the peace talks to change the meaning to that of killing rather than deportation. But then you have to learn how the germans talk to understand this. oh btw wtf does a list of camps have anything to do with your PROVING 16 miles of evidence of mass gassing? Why do you continue to post unconnected crap like that? Does not matter if you had files to the moon and back if you cannot prove mass gassing of 6 million jews. so whats your point? Do you even have one?

jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 11:38:43 PM)
First, the first document is so blurred it cannot be made out, so that is no proof. Please provide a clearer picture of the document in question so that others can verify your claims. Directives are translated into the local language of the area under military police control, not memos. FYI, I know who the commanding officer of the Vienna Austria command of the military police in 1948, and his name is not miller. Furthermore, the Vienna command would not have investigated Nazi camps outside the immediate area of command and operation. There is no OFFICIAL military record of said memo, the supposed commanding officer does not exist, at least in the command the document claims, so now what charlie? I really want to see you get out of this one.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/6/2013 11:48:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 First, the first document is so blurred it cannot be made out, so that is no proof. Please provide a clearer picture of the document in question so that others can verify your claims. Directives are translated into the local language of the area under military police control, not memos. FYI, I know who the commanding officer of the Vienna Austria command of the military police in 1948, and his name is not miller. Furthermore, the Vienna command would not have investigated Nazi camps outside the immediate area of command and operation. There is no OFFICIAL military record of said memo, the supposed commanding officer does not exist, at least in the command the document claims, so now what charlie? I really want to see you get out of this one. prove it, that is an official and sealed document, you posted NOTHING and as usual make grandiose claims as usual with NOTHING and more NOTHING.

LafayetteLady -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 12:07:47 AM)
Official and sealed? By whom? Where's the link? And I am able to read the name on the "original" untranslated version. It doesn't say "Major Miller." Which would be the improper way for an officer to sign their name anyway.

jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 12:08:23 AM)
I am glad to, I was just giving you a chance to change your statement. Since you think I was bluffing, you have very conveniently hung yourself. 796th Military Police Battalion Vienna Command Sherman L. Watts Commanding Officer Maj Jerry M. Wimberley Executive Officer another bit of information that might interest you: The Special Investigation Section is a small, but highly efficient law-enforcement agency. The 21 men in the group have the difficult task of impartially investigating all delinquencies involving government property, or American personnel and their personal property. All cases such as attempted rape, larceny, embezzlement, sex offenses, illegal entries, illegal use of weapons, and assaults are investigated by a Field Agent, whose job is not to acquit or convict, but to accurately and objectively report all relevant to the incident. Work as an Investigator is a "round-the-clock" job, and the personnel in this section are picked, because of specific qualifications. The majority of the men in the section at present have had prior police or investigative experience, and all of them are in top physical condition. The unit in question was not part of the death camp investigations, and those investigations outside Austria would have been outside their assigned AO. Furthermore, all investigations and trials concerning death camp personnel was completed by 1947, with the exception of the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials from 1963 to 1965. I wont play the same game you do, stating something with no way to back it up, but I will give you the chance to withdraw or change your statement. Thank you for playing. You are the weakest link.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 12:22:32 AM)
yeh thats only associated with the US forces, do you think allies are only the US? Incidently if you look carefully at that sealed document you can see that it says Muller, in german Muller and Miller are most often interchangeable. if you care to read the memo it was about false complaints of gassing and lies that had been previously investigated and proven false and they were obviously getting sick of them. Another case of what you dont know can and does hurt you imo.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 12:43:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Official and sealed? By whom? Where's the link? And I am able to read the name on the "original" untranslated version. It doesn't say "Major Miller." Which would be the improper way for an officer to sign their name anyway. Just look at all the kick ass reeearch you are getting for the cheap price of making fools out of yourselves. ABSCHRIFT Militarpolizeilicher Dienst Wien 1.10.1948 10. Ausfertigung R u n d s c h r e i b e n Nr.31/48 1. Die Alliierten Untersuchungskommissionen haben bisher festgestellt, dass in folgenden Konzentrationslagern keine Menschen mit Giftgas getoetet wurden: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbuerg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen und Nebenlager, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), RavensBruek, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt. In diesen Faellen konnte nachgewiesen werden, dass Ge- staendnusse durch Folterungen erpresst wurden und Zeugen- aussagen falsch waren. Dies ist bei den KV-Erhebungen und Einvernnahmen zu be- ruecksichtigen. Ehemalige KZ-Haeftlinge, welche bei Einvernahmen Angaben ueber die Ermordung von Menschen, insbesondere von Juden, mit Giftgas in diesen KZ machen, ist dieses Untersuchungs- ergebnis zur Kenntnis zu bringen. Sollten sie weiter auf ihre Aussagen bestehen, ist die Anzeige wegen falsher Zeugenaussage zu erstatten. 2. Im RS 15/48 kann P. 1 gestrichen werden. Der Leiter des MPD.: Mueller, Major Fuer die Richtigkeit der Ausfertigung: Lachout, Leutnant L.S. (Seal) F.d.R.d.A.: Republik Oesterreich Ich bestaetige hiemit, dass ich am 1.Oktober 1948 Wachbataillon Wien als Angehoeriger des militaerpolizeilichen Dienstes Kommando beim Alliierten Militaerkommando die Richtigkeit (Signature) der Pundschreiben-Ausfertigung gemaess 18 Abs.4 AVG beglaubigt habe. Wien 27 Oktober 1987 (Signature) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Military Police Service COPY Circular Letter No. 31/48 Vienna, 1 October 1948 10th dispatch 1. The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbuerg, Gross- Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbrueck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt. In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by tortures and that testimonies were false. This must be taken into account when conducting investigations and interrogations with respect to war crimes. The result of this investigation should be brought to the cognizance of former concentration camp inmates who at the time of the hearings testified on the murder of people, especially Jews, with poison gas in those concentration camps. Should they insist on their statements, charges are to be brought against them for making false statements. The Head of the MPS Mueller, Major Certified true copy: Lachout, Second Lieutenant L.S (Seal) C.t.c I hereby confirm that on 1 October Austrian Republic 1948, being a member of the Military Vienna Guard Battalion Police Service at the Allied Military Command Command, I certified the copy of this dispatch of the circular letter to be a true copy in pursuance of Art. 18, para. 4 AVG (General Code of Administration Law). Vienna 27 October 1987 (Signature) then again who knows maybe after 1000 posts you will get lucky and catch me in one mistake to vapitalize on to make a bullshit attempt to throw everything out, LOL

jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:07:09 AM)
Are you saying the memo did not come from the Military Police Command in Vienna? Because clearly the header makes that point perfectly clear. There were units from the four occupying powers in Vienna, which was in the Russian zone, so over all command of the units operations would have been Russian, just as overall command in the US zone was American and so on with each power in question. Now as for the memo itself, since the war crimes trials concerning the Concentration Camps were over by 1947, a matter of historic record, and the crimes proved, this alleged memo contradicts the findings of the courts which are also of historic record. This in and of itself creates a problem. Add to that it is a sealed document, then how did it become public knowledge and how was it documented to be fact. Sealed documents do not just pop up out of nowhere. Now researching this document, the only sites where it was referred to are antisemitic and holocaust denial websites, which makes its authenticity doubtful, in light of various archives that exist of the records the germans kept. The archives in the US consist of 56 feet of micro film and have records on the camps from 1939 to 1945. The information is found here. This is the key item to note: quote: Scope & Content This series consists of four subseries. The first three subseries are copies of German records: camp records, transport lists, and medical data cards. The camp records include inmate cards, death lists, and strength reports. The medical data cards include those from the French Red Cross hospital at Feldkirch on the Bodensee (Lake Constance), dating from May-July 1945. The second subseries consists of records of the Jewish Agency for Palistine (Political Department) which include lists of German war criminals and reports of German military action against Jews, primarily in Poland Again the memo contradicts facts in evidence in the national archives, which are direct copies of German and other files. Realone, the physical evidence gathered at the end of WW2 does not support your claims, or any other denial claims. And the evidence those sites and groups provide are not verifiable by independent sources, they go in circles, one site to another and eventually back to the original web site. Trying to run independent searches to try and verify these claims go nowhere near a credible source. When asked for a credible source to verify your claims, you cannot provide one, which does not support your argument, it detracts from it actually. And a mysterious new user linking to antisemitic or holocaust denial sites does nothing either. You make claims based on antisemitic arguments that have been around since god knows when, you refuse to acknowledge the evolution of a term, word that actually clearly shows that the words you claim to have only one meaning have evolved to include the new definition of holocaust. As the term antisemitic has evolved. Your not accepting that does not alter the facts. edited to add: quote: In September 1987, Lachout was approached by representatives of the President of Austria, shown the original Müller document, and asked if he was the person who signed it. Lachout checked his own records and certified in District Court, Vienna, on October 27, 1987, that the signature on the document was his. Emil Lachout Interesting reading, and incidentally the only official record of the document are in the court record of the trial. Considering the defendant was found guilty, it sure detracts from the credibility of the document in question.

jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:19:54 AM)
read my edit on my point of this document, your proof went up in smoke in 1988.

tazzygirl -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:28:00 AM)
~FR [image]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hoefletelegram.jpg[/image] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hoefletelegram.jpg English: Telegram from deputy commander of Aktion Reinhard, listing number of arrivals in the extermination camps. Translation: Letter and 14 day report year-end report Camp i.d. to 31.12.1942 1942 total L ? Lublin 12761 24733 B ? Belzec 0 434508 S ? Sobibor 515 101370 T ? Treblinka 10335 713555 (*) total: 23611 1274166

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:31:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 read my edit on my point of this document, your proof went up in smoke in 1988. I am telling you that doublethink leads to madness. It really does man. Zundle being found guilty for "holocaust denial" has nothing what so ever to do with no gassed people. If the law says you shalt not deny the holocaust it does not matter if there were no war at all, he denied the holocuast then damn it he is guilty. They dont have religious freedom over there you know, they are told what to believe and its enforced by imprisonment. [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/Judge_Dredd___I_am_the_law_by_XIEZHENSHENG.jpg[/image] quote: Emil Lachout [Emil Lachout was the seventeenth witness called by the defence. He testified on April 11 and 12, 1988.] Emil Lachout was a lieutenant in the Military Police Service in Austria in 1948. His job was to accompany the Military Police and members of the Allied War Crimes Commission during the arrests of alleged war criminals to ensure that the suspects were not tortured or abused. Lachout was also involved in the investigation of the Austrian camps, including Mauthausen. (29-7890 to 7895) In 1944, Lachout had been a member of the German Military Police. (29-7948) The Allied War Crimes Commission was composed of two military police investigators from each country and two Austrian observers, himself and Major Müller. It had been formed as a result of Allied mistreatment of alleged war criminals in such trials as Malmédy where it had been proved that false statements were extracted by torture. The Allies wanted to prevent such things from happening again. (29-7895 to 7897) The Commission was disbanded in 1949, and was reconstituted thereafter only for individual cases. (7901) Lachout personally saw instances of tortured Allied prisoners. He talked to them privately and had to "break the ice" in order to get statements from them. Sometimes the men didn't dare to speak because they suspected an Allied officer was there as well. On the basis of his observations, Lachout had instructed that the men be examined by doctors; it was clear that the men had been tortured. (29-7960) The Commission conducted an investigation, in which Lachout was involved, into the allegation that a gas chamber had been used in Mauthausen. It concluded that there were no gas chambers in the camp. In the investigations he was involved in, they found that many of the accusations made, particularly by former concentration camp inmates, were false. (29-7897, 7898) Although Lachout was not personally involved in the investigations of camps in Germany, his office received documentation from the War Crime Commissions located there, pursuant to which he freed prisoners who had been wrongly accused and imprisoned. (29-7951) Christie produced a copy of a Circular Letter of the Military Police Service dated October 1, 1948 which Lachout read to the court: Military Police Service Copy Circular Letter No. 31/48 Vienna, 1 Oct. 1948 10th dispatch 1. The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbürg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt. In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by tortures and that testimonies were false. This must be taken into account when conducting investigations and interrogations with respect to war crimes. The result of this investigation should be brought to the cognizance of former concentration camp inmates who at the time of the hearings testified on the murder of people, especially Jews, with poison gas in those concentration camps. Should they insist on their statements, charges are to be brought against them for making false statements. 2. In the C.L. (Circular Letter) 15/48, item 1 is to be deleted. The Head of the MPS Müller, Major" Certified true copy: Lachout, Second Lieutenant Lachout testified that he had drafted this letter for Major Müller's signature and had watched him sign it. He had then had copies made in the office which he certified, signed and stamped. The letter was translated into three languages and confirmed by the controlling officer. Only then was it allowed to be issued. (29-7954, 7957) The letter was circulated to every military Kommando in the Russian zone to keep personnel aware of the state of investigations. No one was ever charged with making false statements because they withdrew their statements as soon as they heard about the letter. (29-7900, 7901) In September 1987, Lachout was approached by representatives of the President of Austria, shown the original Müller document, and asked if he was the person who signed it. Lachout checked his own records and certified in District Court, Vienna, on October 27, 1987, that the signature on the document was his. (29-7946; Müller letter entered as Exh. 120) do you realize how intellectually dishonest this shows you to be? BTW that was a holocaust denier site you quoted so report yourself! LOL

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:34:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~FR [image]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hoefletelegram.jpg[/image] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hoefletelegram.jpg English: Telegram from deputy commander of Aktion Reinhard, listing number of arrivals in the extermination camps. Translation: Letter and 14 day report year-end report Camp i.d. to 31.12.1942 1942 total L ? Lublin 12761 24733 B ? Belzec 0 434508 S ? Sobibor 515 101370 T ? Treblinka 10335 713555 (*) total: 23611 1274166 and how many went out? you think those camps were one way streets?

thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:38:36 AM)
RealOne So, no reply then, and no further evidence of Jewishness? I mentioned Versailles 3 pages ago, you ignored it and then two pages later claimed no one knew what it was. You talk about no one proving anything, but I'm yet to hear you reply on any evidence of substance. My response to your first claim that 6 million people were gassed was to cite the Wannsee Conference. No reply on that. No reply on Eichmann's testimony. No reply on the link I posted regarding Zyklon B. No reply when I asked you for evidence about Hitlers ancestry. You would rather argue than discuss the facts, because the facts don't back you up. I think the worst bit is that you are claiming to be a free-thinker and you are yet to present an original argument, its all been said before. Brains that fire on all 8 make original statements buddy, I'm thinking you are a three at best. Tobaccoman Go and find 'Working towards the Fuhrer' by Ian Kershaw. Learn what people actually say about Hitler's government and the way it operated before you start disputing it. You look like an idiot when you throw around ill-informed opinions. JLF I'm now going to take the advice you gave me, and give up on this thread. It's clearly not a place for historical evidence.

tazzygirl -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 1:50:30 AM)
Yes

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 2:07:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo RealOne So, no reply then, and no further evidence of Jewishness? I mentioned Versailles 3 pages ago, you ignored it and then two pages later claimed no one knew what it was. You talk about no one proving anything, but I'm yet to hear you reply on any evidence of substance. My response to your first claim that 6 million people were gassed was to cite the Wannsee Conference. No reply on that. No reply on Eichmann's testimony. No reply on the link I posted regarding Zyklon B. No reply when I asked you for evidence about Hitlers ancestry. You would rather argue than discuss the facts, because the facts don't back you up. I think the worst bit is that you are claiming to be a free-thinker and you are yet to present an original argument, its all been said before. Brains that fire on all 8 make original statements buddy, I'm thinking you are a three at best. Tobaccoman Go and find 'Working towards the Fuhrer' by Ian Kershaw. Learn what people actually say about Hitler's government and the way it operated before you start disputing it. You look like an idiot when you throw around ill-informed opinions. JLF I'm now going to take the advice you gave me, and give up on this thread. It's clearly not a place for historical evidence. not if all you got is a few names to throw around and no hard evidence as I do. I commented on everything apparently you did not bother to read my posts. the final solution to the jewish question was to deport all the jews to palestine with any wealth the accumulated in germany, a better deal than any country anywhere yesterday or today would give you. and the ones who refused to go after declaring war on germany guess where they had to go? [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/dailyexpress1933.gif[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/war.jpg[/image] yeh like lets declare war on germany refuse to leave then piss and moan when he puts us in a damn prison camp. How fucking ass backwards is that? wansee I told you they use the term evacuate and exterminate in the same sentence interchangeably. They use it also in the peace talks with england. So if you want to make a case for exterminate to mean kil everyone good luck with that. I am not the one who needs to provide evidence for 6 million gassed jews YOU DO. good luck with that, Jeff found 1122 you have 5 milion 998 thousand ot go. I said it was all gotten by torture and or to keep from being tortured as the allied police talk about in that memo. In the trial however there is an ss man who testifies to that prisoner swimming pool, why dont we talk about wtf a prisoner swimming pool is doing in a DEATH CAMP! How about that? Not only do the facts back me up but so does the evidence I have posted. Pretending not to see or or summary refusal to accept it as such is not my problem and it does not make you position viable. Yeh well I said that an arab who denies the holocaust is a anti-selfer so whats your latest brilliant creation?

thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (2/7/2013 2:33:47 AM)
Saw it and responded to it buddy, you just didn't read my response. Anyone who googles that headline can read the rest of the article and see that the headline does not match the body. Eichmann's testimony? The part of the Wannsee Conference minutes that talks about killing the majority of the inmates through overwork? I quoted that a long time ago, you didn't read that either? There is no evidence of 6 million Jews being gassed, the Nazis never planned to gas 6 million people. Rather they imagined that if they just worked them hard enough then they would drop dead. I've never once said 6 million Jews were gassed. Stop trying to assign me a position I don't hold. A fucking swimming pool? I answered that ages ago. Concentration camps were indeed used for political prisoners before 1939, but during the war their use changed. I told you this a really long time ago when you were first posting images of swimming pools, as well as those 6 black and white images. "Not only do the facts back me up but so does the evidence I have posted. Pretending not to see or or summary refusal to accept it as such is not my problem and it does not make you position viable." Likewise, so lets end it here. We can't even agree on what constitutes evidence, we aren't going to get anywhere.

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