RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic?

RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/26/2013 11:06:50 PM)
LafayetteLady I am in total agreement with what you are saying, and his motives for his statements are becoming quite clear as he makes his claims which are basic antisemitic revisionist crap.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:27:08 AM)
Once again dodged every damn point I made and turned it into a frivolous attack on me. How do you spell titanic. LOL Here have a real tour of auschwitz The Holocaust Testimonies You DIDN'T Hear It also responds in detail to Laf Ladys (LL's) claims. I was saving it for a surprise but will post it anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1QvWLRLz9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m7gI0CSljI keep in mind this is a Jewish kid doing this tour video. and he interviews the auschwitz proprietor Dr Piper. and Dr Piper says that soap was made from the fat of Jews, and that has been proven bullshit around the time of the nurmemburg trials. So the curator caught in a lie LOL I wonder if LL seen the fake chimney when she was there? another Dr Piper admission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygIwNLEfBpc not to mention its pretty obvious since its not even connected to anything. So what did we uncover in this debate so far. that historians knew it was only 1 million total killed yet the history books in the US government controlled school system that we pay ungodly taxes to support claim it was 4 million which is a lie and fraud upon the american people. That they had virtually every form of entertainment for the prisoners even hookers. That the prisoners at the auschwitz death camp earned coupons to buy BEER and cigarettes from the canteena. That the prisoners had better working conditions than some american companies today and free health care. That the piles of hair were because all prisoners were deloused and that is part of the delousing process. That the piles of shoes and clothing were because each prisoner was issued a prison uniform! How diabolical! Hell when I was a kid several kids in class had shaved heads here in america in our schools due to fucking lice. That typhus was the real killer, that the germans put in extensive delousing equipment to insure the safety of the prisoners from disease. That the swimming pools and other entertainment they had is NOT ON THE TOUR! That catholics had the highest loss of life in the camps of over 28% and the jews had the least loss of life in the camps of only 15%. That holocaust has 4 - 5 definitions and the experts do not agree that it was a genocide, hence they do not agree that it was a holocaust but then if you are not an expert you are not allowed to disagree and if you are not an expert and you do disagree you are a denier. That holocaust is also a religious sacrifical rite where offerings to God must be burned to ash. shocking! or at least I am shocked. That there is no definite and concrete application of the word holocaust in reference to world war 2, and the words antisemite make no substantial grammatic sense what so ever. Thats what I learned from this debate. It brought several things to light that certain people seem to be in clinical denial about. That some certain people would rather perpetuate bullshit than look at ALL the facts. How sad. That americans seem to be getting more and more pissed off that they have been lied to about well literally everything that filters through government. Yep this has been very informative.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 1:11:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 LafayetteLady I am in total agreement with what you are saying, and his motives for his statements are becoming quite clear as he makes his claims which are basic antisemitic revisionist crap. Motives? I suppose I should thank you for posting the thread since I learned a quite a bit about the words holocaust, and antisemite. disturbing frankly. I have not revised a damn thing Jeff only stated historical facts that are well established that for what ever reason you and your friends seem to omit.

JustDragonflies -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 2:59:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne and Dr Piper says that soap was made from the fat of Jews, and that has been proven bullshit around the time of the nurmemburg trials. So the curator caught in a lie LOL I didn't notice any "proven BS" about this fat thing, fyi. But, assuming it isn't accurate--- the curator being mistaken, or intentionally lying, either way, doesn't discredit an entire event which existed outside of his existence. Also, why are you laughing when the very idea of it being POSSIBLE that murdered human's fat MIGHT have been used to make soap is what's being discussed. That is a very somber concept to debate about and laughing is disturbing. I wonder if LL seen the fake chimney when she was there? Are you referring to a fake gas chamber or cremetorium? I noticed that you repeatedly questioned the gassing and seemed to imply there were no gas chambers. My grandfather served in the military and was a part of a POW escort across Europe. It was known at that time that there were gas chambers and cremetoriums. He's photographed on top of of one and by a crematorium used to burn the bodies. It wasn't something he or the other soldiers debated. The situation and people he observed made it OBVIOUS what had been happening. The neighbors/farms/towns around these camps and the trains which took the people to the camps could SMELL the death, filth and suffering. People who HATED Jews and LOVED Jews and were INDIFFERENT to Jews could see and smell it. There are many observations of this documented. People are still alive to discuss it. Diaries were written which note it. And then there are the experiences of the soldiers who liberated those people. They had no agenda. My grandfather is not part of some grand lie. So what did we uncover in this debate so far. that historians knew it was only 1 million Honestly, this sickens me. "Only 1 million". Only. Only a million p e o p l e. With dreams. And annoying habits, like yourself. A million people who arrived with their hairbrushes, imagining they'd have hair to brush. A million people who loved and hated. Who felt pain. Who felt joy. Who had families. Who were criminals. Who were artists. A million. IF, IF it's a million, it doesn't diminish the loss. That they had virtually every form of entertainment for the prisoners even hookers. IF there was entertainment that they could regularly access, that was not part of propaganda (because yes, the neighbors and friends of the Jews noticed their absence. People watched trains of humans traveling away. It WAS a concern, just not enough of one, and the people felt like they had little options. I recall, though, dimly, some Catholic nuns who protested the conditions, as they noticed them. Much like people protested the treatment of Japanese internment camp prisoners in the US and protested the world's tolerance of the genocide in Darfur or Cambodia. SOME people noticed, documented and cared) anyway.. IF there was entertainment. So? Is listening to a play a good exchange for freedom? For food? For life? Is it? Is a whore a good exchange for your wife? Your baby who was smothered on the train ride over? For your grandmother's lace gloves which she wore on her wedding day and passed down to your daughters? Is that a reasonable exchange? That the prisoners at the auschwitz death camp earned coupons to buy BEER and cigarettes from the canteena. So? Read above, replace whore/play with "beer" and "cigarettes". That the prisoners had better working conditions than some american companies today and free health care. The kind of free health care which was documented in the monstrous medical experiments that we don't allow to happen to humans anymore? Or animals, even? Today, animals even? That the piles of hair were because all prisoners were deloused and that is part of the delousing process. So? Did they have lice before they were removed from their homes and lives? Do you think that an act can't have dual purposes? That delousing and dehumanizing can't be united in one viscous, cruel, bloody, act? That the piles of shoes and clothing were because each prisoner was issued a prison uniform! How diabolical! Do you understand why people's personal possessions are removed and they are given uniforms? Do you understand that it was literally, diabolical to take away their personal effects and possessions? Do you understand why we do this today? Have you had garments that you loved? They become a part of you. Your outer skin. They took their individuality away. Do you understand how that's diabolical? Hell when I was a kid several kids in class had shaved heads here in america in our schools due to fucking lice. Are you so lacking empathy that you truly can't see the difference between how school kids in America are treated in the shaving process and how ANY prisoner is treated, literally even in America, today, let alone how the individuals who were being exterminated were treated? There's a great deal of research on how people behave when they're asked to do something horrible to other living creatures. It doesn't make them kind and gentle. You are invited to do your own research on this, if you're curious about how the prisoners were being handled and treated on a regular basis. That typhus was the real killer, that the germans put in extensive delousing equipment to insure the safety of the prisoners from disease. This is not factually based, but IF it were...................... IF it were........ Then can you not understand, ethically, how being driven from one's home to live in unsanitary, close, filthy conditions with limited abilities to clean one's self or have space to just exist pleasantly.... thus results in illness that kills... IS still murder. There's legal precedent for that, I believe. What's the term? Negligence. If you drive people into a situation that results in their death, then you're responsible to a degree. Does it really matter HOW the death happened? It is death. They're gone. No more singing. No more debates. No more whatever you ate for dinner today. No more kisses. No more sneezes. No more paying the bills. No more seeing the next movie at the Entertainment Provisions. The individuals who insisted that the people be placed in ghettos, work camps, death camps and etc are still responsible if the people die by stepping on a tack and getting a blood infection....................... ethically they are. The individual wouldn't even be there TO step on the tack/get typhus/starve/die of exhaustion/bullets/gassing.... if not for the protocols in place to put them in that position. Regardless of WHAT kills. They were killed. You really can't wrap your mind around that? You really find this so un-sacred to debate like this? That the swimming pools and other entertainment they had is NOT ON THE TOUR! It's because the entertainment, IF it really was consistently accessible, though I've seen no historical references to such available entertainment... it's not on the tour, because the entertainment isn't really the point. The point is to document and demonstrate the HORRORS. To remember. To honor. To prevent in the future. No one is trying to advocate preventing entertainment of prisoners. And again, the access of suspected entertainment doesn't diminish the horrors of the loss and dehumanizing treatment otherwise experienced. That catholics had the highest loss of life in the camps of over 28% and the jews had the least loss of life in the camps of only 15%. IF this is true, though it's not factually demonstrated by consistent evidence, documents, personal experiences or documented by individuals OUTSIDE the camps (ie relatives/friends/neighbors) ... IF it's true... SO? So ? "only"???????? I don't care if you're a Jew/Catholic/Athiest. I would never look at your extermination and see "only" a few of your kind died. Re-read the "only 1 million" for more opinions on this sentiment. That holocaust has 4 - 5 definitions and the experts do not agree that it was a genocide, hence they do not agree that it was a holocaust but then if you are not an expert you are not allowed to disagree and if you are not an expert and you do disagree you are a denier. Again, more "so" ? That holocaust is also a religious sacrifical rite where offerings to God must be burned to ash. shocking! or at least I am shocked. Do you not understand that many single words have multiple meanings? It doesn't diminish the other meanings, or necessarily be relevant at all. Example word: box That there is no definite and concrete application of the word holocaust in reference to world war 2, and the words antisemite make no substantial grammatic sense what so ever. Um... this is like watching someone point to a 3 sided shape and insist it's not a triangle. I can't help you with this, other than encourage you to talk to a language pathologist. At minimum, I want you to understand that WW2 didn't happen as a reaction to The Holocaust that was happening prior to the war activity. Not sure if you're clear on that, but... revisiting some historical timelines ought to help you understand what was going on at the time in human history. Thats what I learned from this debate. It brought several things to light that certain people seem to be in clinical denial about. That some certain people would rather perpetuate bullshit than look at ALL the facts. How sad. You're not looking at all the facts, and it is sad. But not because of my opinions or anyone else's here. And not for the sake of ALL the people's lives which were lost. Because your opinion is irrelevant to that loss. It doesn't effect it, or diminish the importance or significance of the loss. The reason why it's sad... is because of cognitive dissonance. Wiki that if you're unfamiliar with the terminology. I know... you know, that in reality, you're doing what you're accusing others of. You may not consciously admit it, but your brain is aware and it's not good for you to hold such conflicting beliefs. I would recommend, not that you asked, that you step away from debating with others until you can do so with an ability to adjust to reality when it's presented. You don't need THEM to present it, the other posters, I mean. You've come across it in your own research, I'm sure. Taking some classes on research, science, and how to apply a credibility check on information would assist you in this process. One of the first things any freshman in college learns, should they take a recommended research course, is asking the right questions when starting any research on a given topic. They're taught to ask Who, How, Why, What and Where the information is coming from. Who is supplying it, Why, what motives do they have? Where is it being presented? What is the content of the information? There are academic and scientific processes that the scholars among us have spent hundreds of years narrowing down to minimize bias and grapple with the difference between correlation and causation among other things... My point is, your "research" lacks this level of serious scholarly credibility. Clearly debating is important to you, you've put a considerable amount of time and energy into this thread alone, let alone what else you do in your daily life, let alone on this site.... So I would strongly urge you to familiarize yourself with assessing genuinely credible information. That americans seem to be getting more and more pissed off that they have been lied to about well literally everything that filters through government. I don't necessarily observe this, but it seems like the least important statement to react to, so I'll leave you with that opinion. Yep this has been very informative. Do you see what you look like? Do you see how you're representing yourself? I'd reflect on that quite a bit, if I were you. Perhaps it doesn't matter much to you, but you look cruel and ignorant and pompous. You look like you're illogical and you look like you don't have compassion or scientific aptitude. Is that how you want to present yourself to the world? Just something to consider. I'm not saying you ARE those things, but you're not presenting yourself in the best light.

LafayetteLady -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 6:53:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne That the piles of hair were because all prisoners were deloused and that is part of the delousing process. No one disputes that some of the prisoners may have had lice. But it doesn't explain why they kept the hair. At a barbershop or hair salon, they don't cut hair and save it for later. Hair is cut, swepted up and disposed of...

vincentML -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 9:00:22 AM)
quote: That typhus was the real killer, that the germans put in extensive delousing equipment to insure the safety of the prisoners from disease. Madness. You need only read Eichmann's testimony to see the depth of the bullshit lies you are laying down here. For anyone interested I would suggest Hanna Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 11:40:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: That typhus was the real killer, that the germans put in extensive delousing equipment to insure the safety of the prisoners from disease. Madness. You need only read Eichmann's testimony to see the depth of the bullshit lies you are laying down here. For anyone interested I would suggest Hanna Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem. Sure if you prefer tortured confessions to facts. Epidemic typhus From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Rash caused by epidemic typhus ICD-10 A75.1 ICD-9 080-083 DiseasesDB 29240 MedlinePlus 001363 eMedicine med/2332 MeSH D014438 Epidemic typhus (also called "camp fever", "jail fever", "hospital fever", "ship fever", "famine fever", "putrid fever", "petechial fever", "Epidemic louse-borne typhus,"[1] and "louse-borne typhus"[2]) is a form of typhus so named because the disease often causes epidemics following wars and natural disasters. The causative organism is Rickettsia prowazekii, transmitted by the human body louse (Pediculus humanus corporis).[3][4] Feeding on a human who carries the bacillus infects the louse. R. prowazekii grows in the louse's gut and is excreted in its feces. The disease is then transmitted to an uninfected human who scratches the louse bite (which itches) and rubs the feces into the wound. The incubation period is one to two weeks. R. prowazekii can remain viable and virulent in the dried louse feces for many days. Typhus will eventually kill the louse, though the disease will remain viable for many weeks in the dead louse. Transmission Epidemic typhus is thus found most frequently during times of war and deprivation. For example, typhus killed hundreds of thousands of prisoners in Nazi concentration camps during World War II. The deteriorating quality of hygiene in camps such as Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen created conditions where diseases such as typhus flourished. Situations in the twenty-first century with potential for a typhus epidemic would include refugee camps during a major famine or natural disaster. In the periods between outbreaks, when human to human transmission occurs less often, the flying squirrel serves as a zoonotic reservoir for the Rickettsia prowazekii bacterium. In America, a typhus epidemic killed the son of Franklin Pierce in Concord, New Hampshire in 1843 and struck in Philadelphia in 1837. Several epidemics occurred in Baltimore, Memphis and Washington DC between 1865 and 1873. Typhus fever was also a significant killer during the US Civil War, although typhoid fever was the more prevalent cause of US Civil War "camp fever." Typhoid is a completely different disease from typhus. During World War I typhus caused three million deaths in Russia and more in Poland and Romania. Delousing stations were established for troops on the Western front but the disease ravaged the armies of the Eastern front, with over 150,000 dying in Serbia alone. Fatalities were generally between 10 to 40 percent of those infected, and the disease was a major cause of death for those nursing the sick. Between 1918 and 1922 typhus caused at least 3 million deaths out of 20–30 million cases. In Russia after World War I, during a civil war between the White and Red armies, typhus killed three million, largely civilians. During World War II typhus struck the German army as it invaded Russia in 1941.[6] In 1942 and 1943 typhus hit French North Africa, Egypt and Iran particularly hard.[14] Typhus epidemics killed inmates in the Nazi Germany concentration camps; infamous pictures of typhus victims' mass graves can be seen in footage shot at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.[6] Thousands of prisoners held in appalling conditions in Nazi concentration camps such Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen also died of typhus during World War II,[6] including Anne Frank at the age of 15 and her sister Margot. Even larger epidemics in the post-war chaos of Europe were only averted by the widespread use of the newly discovered DDT to kill the lice on millions of refugees and displaced persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_typhus of course everyone ALWAYS fails to mention the FACT that ALLIED BOMBING took out the food and medicine supply lines, apparently nothing worthwhile considering however when compared to credible testimony obtained by torture. oh and lets not forget that the red cross gave Theresienstadt the good housekeeping seal of approval [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/redcrossinspectors.jpg[/image]

Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 11:49:08 AM)
FR: Of course holocaust denial isn't antisemitic: it's tough love for the jews by denying them the free ride they get from all of those lying historians. (I mean FFS: leading question or what?)

Powergamz1 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 11:50:12 AM)
+1 quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead FR: Of course holocaust denial isn't antisemitic: it's tough love for the jews by denying them the free ride they get from all of those lying historians. (I mean FFS: leading question or what?)

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 11:59:19 AM)
Real0ne - First let me apologize for the length of this, left it this way to keep the context in tact for JustDragonflies. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - and Dr Piper says that soap was made from the fat of Jews, and that has been proven bullshit around the time of the nurmemburg trials. So the curator caught in a lie LOL JustDragonflies - I didn't notice any "proven BS" about this fat thing, fyi. But, assuming it isn't accurate--- the curator being mistaken, or intentionally lying, either way, doesn't discredit an entire event which existed outside of his existence. Also, why are you laughing when the very idea of it being POSSIBLE that murdered human's fat MIGHT have been used to make soap is what's being discussed. That is a very somber concept to debate about and laughing is disturbing. Real0ne - well its pretty common knowledge or at least I would be shocked if it were not, for anyone who did as much as surface research in the matter would not know that it was purely russian propaganda introduced at nuremburg since it is so easy to find on the net so I did not see the need to bother with anything more than a mention. First do you see any fat people? [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/BuchenwaldGermanyMay1945.jpg[/image] all the fat people are working in the factories [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Holoca3.jpg[/image] to earn camp coupons so they can buy beer and cigarettes and pay for postage to write to their relatives [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Campincentivecoupons.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Ghettononey.gif[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Camppostoffice.jpg[/image] and playing soccer in their time off [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed011.jpg[/image] enjoying music in their time off [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/music.jpg[/image] My laughter is directed solely at the head historian at the auschwitz now museum is busted down to his bare ass caught in this late day and age telling a bold faced lie about the camps, and that has been proven and known to be a lie literally since the late 40's. It proves fraud ORIGINAL: Real0ne - I wonder if LL seen the fake chimney when she was there? JustDragonflies - Are you referring to a fake gas chamber or cremetorium? I noticed that you repeatedly questioned the gassing and seemed to imply there were no gas chambers. My grandfather served in the military and was a part of a POW escort across Europe. It was known at that time that there were gas chambers and cremetoriums. He's photographed on top of of one and by a crematorium used to burn the bodies. It wasn't something he or the other soldiers debated. The situation and people he observed made it OBVIOUS what had been happening. The neighbors/farms/towns around these camps and the trains which took the people to the camps could SMELL the death, filth and suffering. People who HATED Jews and LOVED Jews and were INDIFFERENT to Jews could see and smell it. There are many observations of this documented. People are still alive to discuss it. Diaries were written which note it. And then there are the experiences of the soldiers who liberated those people. They had no agenda. My grandfather is not part of some grand lie. Real0ne - Of course there were gas chambers, no one is denying there were gas chambers. They were used for delousing clothes bedding etc. Ironicaly I am not aware of any claims that the real gas chambers were used on humans. Dont you find that odd? Yeh typhus took out a lot of people over there and the only way you could dispose of disease ridden corpses without polluting the water supply a couple hundred yards away was to burn them competely and that was done by cremation furnaces because human bodies are composed of nearly 95% water and cannot be reasonably creamated in burning pits because it would take so much fuel that exxon even today would not have enough fuel in their inventory. It would be like trying to burn water filled balloons. Nothing sinister about it that I can tell. As you can see or I presume you can see this whole situation has been overshadowed by propaganda wars of several governments that have made a very lucrative business out of the shoah. Russian, British, American (wall street), Zionists to name the top 3 contenders so that forces anyone seeking the truth of the matter to demand strict proof. That said you will need to reference sources as I have. Yeh well people reacted pretty much the same way in america to the totaly unconstitutional uprooting and imprisonment of japanese that were US Citizens! ORIGINAL: Real0ne - So what did we uncover in this debate so far. that historians knew it was only 1 million JustDragonflies - Honestly, this sickens me. "Only 1 million". Only. Only a million p e o p l e. With dreams. And annoying habits, like yourself. A million people who arrived with their hairbrushes, imagining they'd have hair to brush. A million people who loved and hated. Who felt pain. Who felt joy. Who had families. Who were criminals. Who were artists. A million. IF, IF it's a million, it doesn't diminish the loss. Real0ne - I am sorry you find facts annoying. Unfortunately there is not to much I can do about that. Again my laughter is directed solely at the head historian at the auschwitz now museum is busted down to his bare ass caught in this late day and age telling a bold faced lie about the camps, that has been proven and known to be a lie literally since the late 40's. [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/was4millionnow1million002.jpg[/image] ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That they had virtually every form of entertainment for the prisoners even hookers. JustDragonflies - IF there was entertainment that they could regularly access, that was not part of propaganda (because yes, the neighbors and friends of the Jews noticed their absence. People watched trains of humans traveling away. It WAS a concern, just not enough of one, and the people felt like they had little options. I recall, though, dimly, some Catholic nuns who protested the conditions, as they noticed them. Much like people protested the treatment of Japanese internment camp prisoners in the US and protested the world's tolerance of the genocide in Darfur or Cambodia. SOME people noticed, documented and cared) anyway.. IF there was entertainment. So? Is listening to a play a good exchange for freedom? For food? For life? Is it? Is a whore a good exchange for your wife? Your baby who was smothered on the train ride over? For your grandmother's lace gloves which she wore on her wedding day and passed down to your daughters? Is that a reasonable exchange? Real0ne - Yes the bands, orchestra, theater and plays etc were scheduled every sunday and repeated so everyone could enjoy them. So? Entertainment at a death camp does not strike you as an oxymoron and complete contrdiction in purpose? Once the Japs declared war on the US they were imprisoned here and hitler did the same thing to the Jews since they after all did decare war on hitler. What would you do in the 40's if people inside the country you were president and they declared war on you? JustDragonflies - IF there was entertainment. So? Is listening to a play a good exchange for freedom? For food? For life? Is it? Is a whore a good exchange for your wife? Your baby who was smothered on the train ride over? For your grandmother's lace gloves which she wore on her wedding day and passed down to your daughters? Is that a reasonable exchange? Real0ne - You really need to decide if you want to approach this from an emotional drama perspective or emotionless objective perpspective. My approach in first and foremost is to determine the facts, after which I reserve my emotions. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That the prisoners at the auschwitz death camp earned coupons to buy BEER and cigarettes from the canteena. JustDragonflies - So? Read above, replace whore/play with "beer" and "cigarettes". Real0ne - It al comes under the umbrella of entertainment. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That the prisoners had better working conditions than some american companies today and free health care. JustDragonflies - The kind of free health care which was documented in the monstrous medical experiments that we don't allow to happen to humans anymore? Or animals, even? Today, animals even? Real0ne - You dont mind posting copies of the records of those well documented medical experiments do you ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That the piles of hair were because all prisoners were deloused and that is part of the delousing process. JustDragonflies - So? Did they have lice before they were removed from their homes and lives? Do you think that an act can't have dual purposes? That delousing and dehumanizing can't be united in one viscous, cruel, bloody, act? Real0ne - Yes many did but the situation is exacerbated when people are in close quarters to one another, which is why the germans insisted on delousing them. Remember napoleon lost most of his army to typhus and dysentary. Delousing the human body in europe was done by shower and shaving off all the hair. They did not have the luxury of ddt which eventually the lice became immune to What dehumanizing about saving someones life? ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That the piles of shoes and clothing were because each prisoner was issued a prison uniform! How diabolical! JustDragonflies - Do you understand why people's personal possessions are removed and they are given uniforms? Do you understand that it was literally, diabolical to take away their personal effects and possessions? Do you understand why we do this today? Have you had garments that you loved? They become a part of you. Your outer skin. They took their individuality away. Do you understand how that's diabolical? Real0ne - yeh its a camp. Many finishing schools for children were required to wear uniforms. again you are bringing in emotions and that does not resolve factual issues. [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/dailyexpress1933.gif[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/war.jpg[/image] ORIGINAL: Real0ne - Hell when I was a kid several kids in class had shaved heads here in america in our schools due to fucking lice. JustDragonflies - Are you so lacking empathy that you truly can't see the difference between how school kids in America are treated in the shaving process and how ANY prisoner is treated, literally even in America, today, let alone how the individuals who were being exterminated were treated? There's a great deal of research on how people behave when they're asked to do something horrible to other living creatures. It doesn't make them kind and gentle. You are invited to do your own research on this, if you're curious about how the prisoners were being handled and treated on a regular basis. Real0ne - you miss the point. the point is that shaving was the solution to lice. Prisoners we not treated well in any camp. Eisenhaurs was the worst willfully kiling well over a million germans that were in captivity under his charge. [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/sat-ngt1.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/eisenswiner002s.jpg[/image] Patton on the other hand let most of them go. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That typhus was the real killer, that the germans put in extensive delousing equipment to insure the safety of the prisoners from disease. JustDragonflies - This is not factually based, but IF it were...................... IF it were........ Then can you not understand, ethically, how being driven from one's home to live in unsanitary, close, filthy conditions with limited abilities to clean one's self or have space to just exist pleasantly.... thus results in illness that kills... IS still murder. There's legal precedent for that, I believe. What's the term? Negligence. If you drive people into a situation that results in their death, then you're responsible to a degree. Does it really matter HOW the death happened? It is death. They're gone. No more singing. No more debates. No more whatever you ate for dinner today. No more kisses. No more sneezes. No more paying the bills. No more seeing the next movie at the Entertainment Provisions. The individuals who insisted that the people be placed in ghettos, work camps, death camps and etc are still responsible if the people die by stepping on a tack and getting a blood infection....................... ethically they are. The individual wouldn't even be there TO step on the tack/get typhus/starve/die of exhaustion/bullets/gassing.... if not for the protocols in place to put them in that position. Regardless of WHAT kills. They were killed. You really can't wrap your mind around that? You really find this so un-sacred to debate like this? Real0ne - you really need to scroll back and read the whole thread. I posted the reasons. The poles that were brought in lived in filth, far waorse than the camps. If you do not bother to read the information given to you there is not much I can reasonably discuss with you. I find your statements lacking in factual substance of the their situation at that time. Its not about today or what you can create without bonafide documentation ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That the swimming pools and other entertainment they had is NOT ON THE TOUR! JustDragonflies - It's because the entertainment, IF it really was consistently accessible, though I've seen no historical references to such available entertainment... it's not on the tour, because the entertainment isn't really the point. The point is to document and demonstrate the HORRORS. To remember. To honor. To prevent in the future. No one is trying to advocate preventing entertainment of prisoners. And again, the access of suspected entertainment doesn't diminish the horrors of the loss and dehumanizing treatment otherwise experienced. Real0ne - Its amazing what greed and money can do to a government huh They were dealing prisoners in the context of war not D/s and for the record I would agree that any mistreatment by any official at any time is repugnant and abhorant. I have a long posting record to that effect. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That catholics had the highest loss of life in the camps of over 28% and the jews had the least loss of life in the camps of only 15%. JustDragonflies - IF this is true, though it's not factually demonstrated by consistent evidence, documents, personal experiences or documented by individuals OUTSIDE the camps (ie relatives/friends/neighbors) ... IF it's true... SO? So ? "only"???????? I don't care if you're a Jew/Catholic/Athiest. I would never look at your extermination and see "only" a few of your kind died. Re-read the "only 1 million" for more opinions on this sentiment. Real0ne - again you seem to miss the point. The point is that Jews had the least losses on a percentage basis and get literally all the notariety and reparation payments from several countries while the others who suffered more than the Jews get notging. Not even recognition. How about that? ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That holocaust has 4 - 5 definitions and the experts do not agree that it was a genocide, hence they do not agree that it was a holocaust but then if you are not an expert you are not allowed to disagree and if you are not an expert and you do disagree you are a denier. JustDragonflies - Again, more "so" ? Real0ne - The so called experts disagree and everyone else is demanded by law in several countries to simply keep their mouth shut [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/AMERICANNAZI012.jpg[/image] ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That holocaust is also a religious sacrifical rite where offerings to God must be burned to ash. shocking! or at least I am shocked. JustDragonflies - Do you not understand that many single words have multiple meanings? It doesn't diminish the other meanings, or necessarily be relevant at all. Example word: box Real0ne - That is precisely my bitch and do you understand that language has a specific building block structure that is being circumvented and completely ignored? Doi you have any idea what this has done to the language in the last 100 years? If so elaborate on it ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That there is no definite and concrete application of the word holocaust in reference to world war 2, and the words antisemite make no substantial grammatic sense what so ever. JustDragonflies - Um... this is like watching someone point to a 3 sided shape and insist it's not a triangle. I can't help you with this, other than encourage you to talk to a language pathologist. At minimum, I want you to understand that WW2 didn't happen as a reaction to The Holocaust that was happening prior to the war activity. Not sure if you're clear on that, but... revisiting some historical timelines ought to help you understand what was going on at the time in human history. Real0ne - In law there are in most cases very often fine distinctions that unless knowledgeable the reader has no possible way to know or understand. I have a long record of exposing several of these. I always enjoy speaking with language experts and do on several occasions. if there is something you want to know let me know. If you are trying to say that the holocaust was not the cause of ww2 I agree. I am not sure exactly what yo are trying to say. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - Thats what I learned from this debate. It brought several things to light that certain people seem to be in clinical denial about. That some certain people would rather perpetuate bullshit than look at ALL the facts. How sad. JustDragonflies - You're not looking at all the facts, and it is sad. But not because of my opinions or anyone else's here. And not for the sake of ALL the people's lives which were lost. Because your opinion is irrelevant to that loss. It doesn't effect it, or diminish the importance or significance of the loss. The reason why it's sad... is because of cognitive dissonance. Wiki that if you're unfamiliar with the terminology. I know... you know, that in reality, you're doing what you're accusing others of. You may not consciously admit it, but your brain is aware and it's not good for you to hold such conflicting beliefs. I would recommend, not that you asked, that you step away from debating with others until you can do so with an ability to adjust to reality when it's presented. You don't need THEM to present it, the other posters, I mean. You've come across it in your own research, I'm sure. Taking some classes on research, science, and how to apply a credibility check on information would assist you in this process. One of the first things any freshman in college learns, should they take a recommended research course, is asking the right questions when starting any research on a given topic. They're taught to ask Who, How, Why, What and Where the information is coming from. Who is supplying it, Why, what motives do they have? Where is it being presented? What is the content of the information? There are academic and scientific processes that the scholars among us have spent hundreds of years narrowing down to minimize bias and grapple with the difference between correlation and causation among other things... My point is, your "research" lacks this level of serious scholarly credibility. Clearly debating is important to you, you've put a considerable amount of time and energy into this thread alone, let alone what else you do in your daily life, let alone on this site.... So I would strongly urge you to familiarize yourself with assessing genuinely credible information. Real0ne - I am the one who is in fact looking at the entertaianment and in fact factoring it into the equation. It seems I have more facts than anyone else around here. Do you honestly think that my posting the facts is an attempt to diminish the loss of life from the nazi camps or eienhaurs camps or for that matter the japanese death marches? It would seem I am talking a vastly larger scope than you are. Whose reality would you have me adjust to? This is not a D/s matter its hard core cold facts, no more no less. I am not the one who question the soap from fat, you have so please do not lecture me about credibility. I dont do appeals to authority, especially since they invariably lie about literally everything. You also have put a lot of time and energy in your response and I very much appreciate that so I took the time to respond to it. It is refreshing compared to the usual baseless snarks from the cheap seats around here. ORIGINAL: Real0ne - That americans seem to be getting more and more pissed off that they have been lied to about well literally everything that filters through government. JustDragonflies - I don't necessarily observe this, but it seems like the least important statement to react to, so I'll leave you with that opinion. Real0ne - The whole point of one of Jeffs threads is that there is an antisemitism movement afoot and even though severl jews are trying to expose the fraud they are still getting blamed for what zionist and your governments are doing behind your back and under cover of national security and secretism etc ORIGINAL: Real0ne - Yep this has been very informative. JustDragonflies - Do you see what you look like? Do you see how you're representing yourself? I'd reflect on that quite a bit, if I were you. Perhaps it doesn't matter much to you, but you look cruel and ignorant and pompous. You look like you're illogical and you look like you don't have compassion or scientific aptitude. Is that how you want to present yourself to the world? Just something to consider. I'm not saying you ARE those things, but you're not presenting yourself in the best light. Real0ne - Yes I look like someone who does not tolerate fraud very well and represent myself the same. Its unfortunate that fact finding has to look past emotional sentiment but that is simply the way it is. My emotions are not part of this discussion, since emotions only ruin the soup. If yo uwant emotions just pick up any propaganda piece and I am sure you will be crying and have nonthewiser in the end. On the other hand because someone cannot see my logic first off does not mean there is none or that its correctness is dimished. thanks for being civil and welcome to the boards [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/welcome.gif[/image]

Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:06:08 PM)
If we're going to talk about barefaced lies, you can start by explaining what the flying fuck British POWs would be doing at a civilian concentration camp in Poland.

JustDragonflies -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The deteriorating quality of hygiene in camps such as Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen created conditions where diseases such as typhus flourished. See my above post regarding the near-irrelevancy on typhus vs gas chambers. Death is death. Why are you still talking about their death like this today? I was rather hoping you'd have reflected on it and decide against it.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:10:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead FR: Of course holocaust denial isn't antisemitic: it's tough love for the jews by denying them the free ride they get from all of those lying historians. (I mean FFS: leading question or what?) government controls what is taught in schools not historians. your snark is pointless and frivolous

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne The deteriorating quality of hygiene in camps such as Theresienstadt and Bergen-Belsen created conditions where diseases such as typhus flourished. See my above post regarding the near-irrelevancy on typhus vs gas chambers. Death is death. Why are you still talking about their death like this today? I was rather hoping you'd have reflected on it and decide against it. why do you continue to try and admonish me when it was the allies that caused that condition? Do you not understand that when the germans medical and food supplies are bombed they are destroyed and can no longer be used?

Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:17:07 PM)
Of course, The Man is holding back your simple truth that there was no holocaust, and the historians just go along with that. It must be lovely to have such simple faith in your government: I wouldn't trust mine to organise a piss up in a brewery, never mind rewrite twentieth century history. While we're on snark, I'm waiting for your explanation of what military POWs would be doing in a civilian camp. Was that some sort of special kosher football they were posing with where the leather cover's made out of gassed jews, rather than a slaughtered pig, and as such it was only available in concentration camps?

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Of course, The Man is holding back your simple truth that there was no holocaust, and the historians just go along with that. It must be lovely to have such simple faith in your government: I wouldn't trust mine to organise a piss up in a brewery, never mind rewrite twentieth century history. While we're on snark, I'm waiting for your explanation of what military POWs would be doing in a civilian camp. Was that some sort of special kosher football they were posing with where the leather cover's made out of gassed jews, rather than a slaughtered pig, and as such it was only available in concentration camps? why are you going on about a picture I removed immediately after I realized it was the wrong one? While in my collection I have not verified the accuracy of that military pic hence took it down immediately upon notice and replaced it with the pic I intended to put up. Sorry for any inconvenience that may have caused you. incidentally the nazis had their own team and did play soccer with the prisoners in the auschwitz death camp. odd that I never seen that in any school texts in civics class. in so far as the holocaust is concerned I am still sitting on the fence since to my surprise no one has even attempted to prove the matter. Zonie started but I expect did not like the questions I put on the table.

Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:29:16 PM)
Because you ignored the query about that until you got around to replacing the picture with another one, in the hope that you can claim that you never posted it in the first place to anybody who's missed the last half hour or so of posting, sweetie.

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:34:36 PM)
I admitted to posting it. So stop with the bullshit fabrications any time. It was changed immediately after I scrolled down the page, immediately after it came up on my screen, immediately after I saw it, the whole process took a mere few seconds, I made other unrelated changes to that post afterward. damn you are fucking hard up.

kiwisub12 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:46:51 PM)
No RealOne, you are the one hard up. It must be sad to be you and have such a limited mind. Being pendantic about topics doesn't mean you are informed or educated or intelligent. Pity, because you sound relatively intelligent but completely unable to grasp reality.

Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/27/2013 12:50:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne I admitted to posting it. So stop with the bullshit fabrications any time. It was changed immediately after I scrolled down the page, immediately after it came up on my screen, immediately after I saw it, the whole process took a mere few seconds, I made other unrelated changes to that post afterward. Stop lying. You didn't change the picture until after I posted about it. The time you made your post and the time you edited it are both given on the post itself. is that really the best you can manage?

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