RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (Full Version)

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graceadieu -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:15:46 PM)

FR -

My great-uncle was a Holocaust survivor, who was at Dachau. He was fortunate to survive, but IIRC from what he said (he died in the 90s), he was seperated from his parents (he would've been a teenager at the time), and never saw them again.

Anybody who can look at the records the Nazis themselves kept of what they did, who they killed, the plans for the camps and gas chambers, the testimony of the survivors, the testimony of the soldiers that liberated the camps, and the testimony even of the Nazis that have since come forward to apologize for what they did, and deny that it happened or even that it was as bad as it was? Is either a fool or a Nazi sympathizer.

Is Holocaust denial antisemitic? I think the only debate that we can really have is whether it's simply antisemitic, or antisemitic AND anti- a lot of other things. Because it's an idea that was made up and promoted by racists and antisemites to make the Nazis not look like bad guys. And people who espouse it can go fuck themselves.



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:20:33 PM)

The terrible thing is that the fools and nazis are winning.
Every year there's less witnesses like your great uncle about to gainsay them, and more fuckwits who should have the wit to know better insisting it was all an accident not a carefully orchestrated campaign to turn one of the most civilised countries in Europe into an abattoir and exterminate millions of people the way a halal butcher slaughters cattle.



mnottertail -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:24:26 PM)

My father was involved in camp liberation  (he told me stories of it after I was a vet).............he was US Army Air Corps, it happened.  And it happened alot like the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stories that were told about it, and then some.  It may not have been 6 million killed but it was so fucking close to that that I don't see the difference.  And it was goddamn sure more than one or two people. 



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:30:48 PM)

Don't tell me, tell the poster I can't name unless I'm replying to a post of his.
One of the first things they did after the camps were liberated was to send as many units as they possibly could through them so that there'd be plenty of witnesses.
It worked until the witnesses started to pass, as people always do when the reach a certain age.
Civilization has lost, cunts like the dead fuckwit out of Skrewdriver have won. Great, isn't it?



jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:36:07 PM)

I am sure this particular poster would still deny that it was more than a few hundred thousand that died of poor hygiene and typhus.

By the way, according to a little birdy that I will not name, every photo and film were faked.

And the majority of the sites he links to as proof have antisemitic, and point to a Jewish conspiracy of what I am not sure, since I cannot force myself to read that garbage.



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 12:55:22 PM)

He's still not explained why there was a seven minute delay between him realising that he'd posted the wrong photo and then replacing it "seconds later", come to that.
[8|]



jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 1:03:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

He's still not explained why there was a seven minute delay between him realising that he'd posted the wrong photo and then replacing it "seconds later", come to that.
[8|]



Maybe it was the time delay due to his posting time being limited to the speed of light, and the distance his fantasy world is from earth?



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 1:13:43 PM)

If he was posting from Barsoom, that would explain it, I'm sure.
[:D]



vincentML -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 2:31:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Dickering whether the death toll was 4 million or 6 million is engaging in the worst sort of obscenity.

By one measure, the difference between 4 million and 6 million is 2 million. By another measure, it may be the difference between truth and myth. And by yet a third measure, it might reasonably figure in the calculation of reparations. Frankly, I know of no other historical event about which raising questions can destroy someone's life and land them in jail. And in my view, that alone makes for a very good reason to raise them.

Any person raising questions about the holocaust on this board and in this country (USA) is not in danger of having his life destroyed nor in any danger of going to jail. So, that is a meaningless justification.

When such a question is raised with such fantastical evidence and argument blowback should be expected. Thousands died of typhus therefore typhus was the major cause of millions of Jewish deaths. Really? Eichmann was tortured in Jerusalem. Really? And not one shred of evidence or testimony to support the assertion.

Are we then to ignore the archives of German records at Bad Arolson "about the 17.5 million people - Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mental patients, handicapped, political prisoners and other undesirables – they persecuted during the regime's 12 years in power." and that contain "50 million pages, housed in thousands of filing cabinets in 6 buildings. Overall, there are 16 miles of shelves holding information about the victims of the Nazis.

The documents - scraps of paper, transport lists, registration books, labor documents, medical records, and finally death registers – record the arrest, transportation and extermination of the victims. In some case, even the amount and size of the lice found on the prisoners’ heads were recorded.

This archive contains the famous Schindler’s List, with the names of 1,000 prisoners saved by factory owner Oskar Schindler who told the Nazis he needed the prisoners to work in his factory.

Records of Anne Frank’s journey from Amsterdam to Bergen-Belsen, where she died at the age of 15, can also be found among the millions of documents in this archive."

Sure, questions can be raised, even if they are accompanied by god-awfully feeble support. But we are not obliged to withhold retort.




LafayetteLady -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 4:48:40 PM)

I visited Oskar Schindler's factory in November of last year. It was a truly moving experience. I also visited Auschwitz and the home where Anne Frank and her family hid in Amsterdam. These were places I wanted to visit for many, many years. You can't stand in those places and truly believe it is all fake. At least not if you have an ounce of sense and a modicum of brain cells.



Zonie63 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/28/2013 4:52:22 PM)

Real0ne,

As I mentioned in my previous post, if you didn't like the definitions I found, then you were certainly free to provide your own. I'm not sure why you can't just come up with your own terms and definitions, at least so we could get past some of the preliminary nit-picking. I was just using the terms which are commonly understood by the mainstream, but if you have some alternative school of thought with different terms and perspectives on history, then you're still free to provide your own terms and definitions. It would be a far more productive discussion if you would do that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Ok so a holocaust denier then has a predetermined position that the holocaust did not occur.

How is that different from the predetermined position that it did occur?


But it wasn't a predetermined position. It was discovered to have occurred during the course of the war. They had strong suspicions, especially since the German public position was so virulently and openly anti-Jewish. Their policies and treatment of Jews was quite obvious and well-known to the outside world even before the outbreak of World War II. Certainly, that was not predetermined either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Hence my demand for a definition so we start out on the right foot here.


And I counter that by offering you the option to give your own definition. If you don't like the dictionaries and other reference materials we have available, you're always free to come up with your own. Personally, I haven't the time nor the inclination to rewrite the dictionary, so I just happily use one of the many free online dictionaries available.

In all fairness, I had read about what the Nazis did to Jewish people in the camps back when I was a kid, so I knew about the events in question and what had transpired years before I ever heard the term "Holocaust" associated with those events. The first time I heard the term applied that way was when there was a TV miniseries called "Holocaust." But the events are what they are, and the term "Holocaust" was used to describe it. But the word itself doesn't change the events as they were recorded.

In other words, the events in question were already known and established as fact in the eyes of the world long before someone decided to call it the "Holocaust."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

An addition problem is of course that we have like what 5 definitions for holocaust the one that was determined to be the one best suited for ww2 is in dispute by those who call themselves authoritative experts.

So that pretty much leaves us with nothing at all.


I posted the entire definition, although there's only one in particular which applies in this context.

I didn't check to see who was on the usage panel, but they're usually made up of English professors and other recognized experts on language.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Now you can take every one of those points I have made and comment on them so in the end we can determine which if any definition most applies and WHO we should be applying that since we know arabs are not included.

I made a lot of statements meant as rebuttal, hence they require counter rebuttal if you want their version to stick untarnished.


Well, I'm not sure what kind of rebuttal I can give under the circumstances. I forgot where the goal posts were.

It seems that your bigger problem is with the usage of the term Holocaust itself. Is that it? Would you rather use another term? During the war, I think they used the term "Jewish massacres," which would be an accurate description.

So, without using the term "Holocaust," which seems to be so bothersome to you, we can say that the Nazis massacred Jews during World War II. To put into context of this thread, can it be said that those who denied that the Nazis massacred Jews during World War II might have anti-semitic motives in doing so? Or are there other possible motives?



VideoAdminChi -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 10:43:55 AM)

FR,

Locked for review.



VideoAdminChi -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 11:55:05 AM)

Unlocked.



Switcheroo1983 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 12:16:20 PM)

Interesting topic.

One does not necessarily have to be antisemitic to deny the holocaust, but it helps!




xBullx -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 12:21:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

FR -

My great-uncle was a Holocaust survivor, who was at Dachau. He was fortunate to survive, but IIRC from what he said (he died in the 90s), he was seperated from his parents (he would've been a teenager at the time), and never saw them again.

Anybody who can look at the records the Nazis themselves kept of what they did, who they killed, the plans for the camps and gas chambers, the testimony of the survivors, the testimony of the soldiers that liberated the camps, and the testimony even of the Nazis that have since come forward to apologize for what they did, and deny that it happened or even that it was as bad as it was? Is either a fool or a Nazi sympathizer.

Is Holocaust denial antisemitic? I think the only debate that we can really have is whether it's simply antisemitic, or antisemitic AND anti- a lot of other things. Because it's an idea that was made up and promoted by racists and antisemites to make the Nazis not look like bad guys. And people who espouse it can go fuck themselves.


I've been to Dachau. Go there, witness it, feel it, mourn it... Whatever it is that you do, you won't leave there fostering doubt.



Switcheroo1983 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 12:31:37 PM)

I find it quite interesting, that the holocaust, which has so much evidence to support it's quite real existence, has so many deniers world over, when the Rape of Nanking, which has considerably less evidence to support it, has almost no deniers outside of certain circles in Japan. No, I am in no way denying the Rape of Nanking, just finding it odd that holocaust "revisionists" don't raise the same question about Nanking circa 1937-1938.



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 3:33:12 PM)

Something to do with the fact that nobody's insisting that the Rape Of Nanking didn't happen in order to try to whitewash a fascist regime that's remained quite appealing to the flakier elements of the conservative lunatic fringe even to this day, perhaps?



jlf1961 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 3:40:21 PM)

Well historically speaking, the Jewish people have been the "cause" for every problem in western civilization, including the black plague. The Chinese, not so much.

Holocaust deniers claim that it was a Jewish conspiracy in order to get repatriations from the allies and Germans after WWII, some even suggesting that the Allies were part of it.

Which in my mind, considering the marked decrease of the Jewish population after the war compared to the Jewish population prior to the war, brings up the question, just where in the hell did all those Jewish people go during the war?

The seem to be in agreement that there was a European Jewish population of 9.5 million before the war, but they in no way explain why there were only 3 million Jews in Europe after the war.

Then there are those that claim that the missing Jews were shipped out of Europe immediately after the war, by the Allies in order to create some justification for the war crimes trials.

Then you have people like a poster on these boards that claim that there were less than 200 thousand Jews that died, and that was due to poor hygiene which caused the spread of various diseases.

It all boils down in the end, of a conspiracy involving the Jews to create falsified records, using the forms and style of the SS to document the killing of 6 million Jews and the other various prisoners that the Germans eliminated. All those documents fill 16 miles of filing cabinets, and were done in the shortest time to give the Allies evidence for the war crimes trials that began in the fall of 1945.

Which leads us to the idea that denying the Holocaust is antisemitic in nature due to the conspiracy theories against the Jews claiming they were involved in the creation of the evidence used to prosecute German war criminals.

An idea that is accepted by the majority of the world's population.



Moonhead -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 3:54:58 PM)

Something it's worth remembering about that, despite the fact that it's depressing enough people don't like to dwell on it, is that the whole conspiracy mindset seems geared towards jew bashing as a whole. Most of the more entertaining conspiracy theories are produced by the sort of far right wingnuts who think that the protocols Of the Elders Of Zion isn't a fake and that the country is actually run by a sinister cabal of stereotypes who make Fagin look like Amy Winehouse and only keep a few gentiles around so that they have children to murder and bleed for their Matzoh.

(Not that conspiracy theories are an exclusively wingnut right thing, of course, but even at their wingynuttiest the leftist conspiracies tend to have a less hysterical tone to them, however far from grounded they happen to be.)



LookieNoNookie -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/29/2013 5:05:27 PM)

Holocaust denial isn't antisemitic.

It's just stooopit.



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