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ORIGINAL: vincentML
While deplorable, the Jordanian destruction of Jewish graveyards in East Jerusalem is hardly equivalent to the long presence of Israeli forces in the West Bank, continuing 65 years on, and their brutal oppression of the Palestinians there.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
While deplorable, the Jordanian destruction of Jewish graveyards in East Jerusalem is hardly equivalent to the long presence of Israeli forces in the West Bank, continuing 65 years on, and their brutal oppression of the Palestinians there.

ya mean da cleansing of jews & huge numbers of christians for 20 yrs by da jordanians don't matter ta ya?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
No matter how you try to spin it, the records speaks loudly: the Israelis cleansed the land of the indigenous people, and stole it.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
While deplorable, the Jordanian destruction of Jewish graveyards in East Jerusalem is hardly equivalent to the long presence of Israeli forces in the West Bank, continuing 65 years on, and their brutal oppression of the Palestinians there.

ya mean da cleansing of jews & huge numbers of christians for 20 yrs by da jordanians don't matter ta ya?

I didn't say that.

Coming to the aid of the indigenous people is not equivalent to the Israeli taking and occupying their land. It is not equivalent to the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians and the theft of their property.

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This from the Israeli Archives:

A document produced by the Israeli Defence Forces Intelligence Service entitled "The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948" was dated 30 June 1948 and became widely known around 1985.

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":

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Historian Benny Morris notes that “in general, Haganah and IDF commanders were not forced to confront the moral dilemma posed by expulsion; most Arabs fled before and during the battle, before the Israeli troops reached their homes and before the Israeli commanders were forced to confront the dilemma.” 25 …

The [refugee] problem was a direct consequence of the war that the Palestinians—and … surrounding Arab states—had launched.” — Israeli historian Benny Morris 29 …

Starting in December 1947, historian Benny Morris said, “Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.” He concluded, “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations.” 31 …

Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, “tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation—women and children first, the men following weeks later—occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places.” …

“As Palestinian military power was swiftly and dramatically crushed, and the Haganah demonstrated almost unchallenged superiority in successive battles,” Benny Morris noted, “Arab morale cracked, giving way to general, blind, panic, or a ‘psychosis of flight,’ as one IDF intelligence report put it.” 36

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No matter how you try to spin it, the records speaks loudly: the Israelis cleansed the land of the indigenous people, and stole it.

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yer reply is a bit confused but yer basically sayin' da expulsion r fleeing of one group is worse than da expulsion r fleeing of one r two other groups. dat means da cleansing of jews an' christians by da jordanians doesnt matter to ya. no nice bud.

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Well now da document isnt from da "israeli archives"

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but if ya want ta use da words by benny morris be me guest lol

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“As Palestinian military power was swiftly and dramatically crushed, and the Haganah demonstrated almost unchallenged superiority in successive battles,” Benny Morris noted, “Arab morale cracked, giving way to general, blind, panic, or a ‘psychosis of flight,’ as one IDF intelligence report put it.” 36

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so ya are denying da jews are not indigenous to da region! that they had no link to da region for least 4000 yrs? again.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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yer reply is a bit confused but yer basically sayin' da expulsion r fleeing of one group is worse than da expulsion r fleeing of one r two other groups. dat means da cleansing of jews an' christians by da jordanians doesnt matter to ya. no nice bud.

The expelled Jews were given a place in Israel. They did not end up in camps. The same is true of the Jews expelled by the Arab nations. Their massive immigration into Israel was an economic and strategic boon to the young state. The Arabs made a stupid blunder inhancing the Jewish population of Palestine.

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Well now da document isnt from da "israeli archives"

Silly nitpicking by you. The document discovered in 1985 was from the IDF Intell Services and you say it was not from the archives. You have no answer to its contents.

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but if ya want ta use da words by benny morris be me guest lol

Instead of the document's prioritzed list of causes you take the post facto interpretation and whitewash by an historian. Piss poor. You simply cannot escape the raw admissions of the IDF summary.

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“As Palestinian military power was swiftly and dramatically crushed, and the Haganah demonstrated almost unchallenged superiority in successive battles,” Benny Morris noted, “Arab morale cracked, giving way to general, blind, panic, or a ‘psychosis of flight,’ as one IDF intelligence report put it.” 36

The fear factor does not come in until item #7 in the IDF report. But since you brought it up let me point out that your quote link doesn't work and the panic or "psychosis of flight" happened before the Arab nations entered the war in May 1948. The cause of this psychosis of flight was Israeli units deliberate bombing civilians:

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Various authors mention specific cases in which the Yishuv engaged in shelling of civilians:
Morris says that during the battle of Tiberias the Haganah engaged in bombarding the Arab population with mortars[166]
Morris says that during the exodus of Haifa a primary aim of mortar barrages was demoralisation: "The Haganah mortar attacks of 21–22 April were primarily designed to break Arab morale in order to bring about a swift collapse of resistance and speedy surrender.... But clearly the offensive, and especially the mortarring, precipitated the exodus. The three inch mortars 'opened up on the market square [where there was] a great crowd ... a great panic took hold. The multitude burst into the port, pushed aside the policemen, charged the boats and began to flee the town', as the official Haganah history later put it."[167] According to Pappé[168] this mortar barrage was deliberately aimed at civilians to precipitate their flight from Haifa.

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Clearly, the Jews drove out the Arabs and stole their land.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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so ya are denying da jews are not indigenous to da region! that they had no link to da region for least 4000 yrs? again.

They were a tiny portion of the population . . . and mostly due to late 19th C immigration and migration prior/during the holocaust in Europe.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
No matter how you try to spin it, the records speaks loudly: the Israelis cleansed the land of the indigenous people, and stole it.

Actually the Romans cleansed the land of the indigenus people, the Jews just reclaimed their land. If you are going to bring out the indigenus peoples claim you should at least get the details right.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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so ya are denying da jews are not indigenous to da region! that they had no link to da region for least 4000 yrs? again.

They were a tiny portion of the population . . . and mostly due to late 19th C immigration and migration prior/during the holocaust in Europe.

just saw yer eta. so ya deny da jews are indigenous to israel? waz actually a fair population as sources say da majority of folks in jerusalem were jews in da middle of da 1800s.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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so ya are denying da jews are not indigenous to da region! that they had no link to da region for least 4000 yrs? again.

They were a tiny portion of the population . . . and mostly due to late 19th C immigration and migration prior/during the holocaust in Europe.

just saw yer eta. so ya deny da jews are indigenous to israel? waz actually a fair population as sources say da majority of folks in jerusalem were jews in da middle of da 1800s.

I thought we were talking about Palestine. Not sure about Jerusalem. Maybe you can put up another link that fails.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
No matter how you try to spin it, the records speaks loudly: the Israelis cleansed the land of the indigenous people, and stole it.

Actually the Romans cleansed the land of the indigenus people, the Jews just reclaimed their land. If you are going to bring out the indigenus peoples claim you should at least get the details right.

Actually, it was not quite that simple. The first Diaspora took place with the Babylonian conquest and destruction of the first temple in the 6thC BCE. There were already populations of Jews throughout the Hellenistic world when the Romans destroyed the 2nd Temple and forbade the Jews to practice their religion in Syria Palestina.

Not all Jews agree with the Zionists' desire for a return to the homeland:

Contrary to the Israel-centric Zionist view, acceptance of the Jewish communities outside of Israel was postulated by those, like Simon Rawidowicz (also a Zionist), who viewed the Jews as a culture evolved into a new 'worldly' entity that had no reason to seek a return, either physical, emotional or spiritual to its ancient Land, and could remain a one people even in dispersion.

It was argued that the dynamics of the diaspora which were affected by persecution, numerous subsequent exiles, as well as political and economic conditions created a new Jewish awareness of the World, and a new awareness of the Jews by the World.
SOURCE

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nah ya misrepresented what da document waz. he found it in some old papers. hardly da same as a document found in some official archive.

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How precisely does any of that make Jews not the indigenous people of Israel?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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nah ya misrepresented what da document waz. he found it in some old papers. hardly da same as a document found in some official archive.

It is what it is . . . the IDF assessment of how the Jews terroized the Palestinians and stole their land.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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nah ya misrepresented what da document waz. he found it in some old papers. hardly da same as a document found in some official archive.

It is what it is . . . the IDF assessment of how the Jews terroized the Palestinians and stole their land.

yup an unsigned document proportin ta by by da idf found in some old papers lol

he brought it ta da world but still found to da contrary over da decades of study by nut relying on jus one source. dat so complex?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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How precisely does any of that make Jews not the indigenous people of Israel?

You've played this game before, Ken. How far back in history do you wish to go? Clearly, from the Middle Ages on the Arabs were indigenous to the land. Is it the fault of the Arabs that the Israelis got their ass kicked when they rebelled against the Romans? Of course not. Thank you very much.

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originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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nah ya misrepresented what da document waz. he found it in some old papers. hardly da same as a document found in some official archive.

It is what it is . . . the IDF assessment of how the Jews terroized the Palestinians and stole their land.

yup an unsigned document proportin ta by by da idf found in some old papers lol

he brought it ta da world but still found to da contrary over da decades of study by nut relying on jus one source. dat so complex?

You are still nitpicking. Here is Morris on the IDF report:

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The report concludes: "It is possible to say that at least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our [Haganah / IDF] operations and by their influence". In addition, "the effects of the operations of dissident Jewish organizations 'directly [caused] some 15 percent ... of the emigration'.

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Morris writes:

“ "...the reports goes out of its way to stress that the exodus was contrary to the political-strategic desires of both the Arab Higher Committee and the governments of the neighbouring Arab states" [] "...the report makes no mention of any blanket order issued over Arab radio stations or through other means to Palestinian to evacuate their homes or villages. Had such an order been issued, it would without doubt have been mentioned or cited in this document; the Haganah intelligence service and the IDF intelligence branch closely monitored Arab radio transmissions and the Arabic press.

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Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, “Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.” He concluded, “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations” (Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590.)

The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: “Any opposition to this order... is an obstacle to the holy war... and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts.” The Arab Higher Committee also ordered the evacuation of “several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more” in April-July 1948. “The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way” (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986; See also Morris, pp. 263 & 590-592).

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And then as a final insulting whitewash he puts the blame upon the Palestinian victims for running from the bombardment of civilian areas:

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

That makes the Jews indigenous to the area not the Arabs who quite obviously migrated into the area.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

That makes the Jews indigenous to the area not the Arabs who quite obviously migrated into the area.

Thats much like saying you are not indigenous to America.

Are you really suggesting the Philistines were not indigenous to the region, let alone the Cannanites.