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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
They have not evacuated from a large section of the "territories." They have settlements thoughout and are adding more. And territories? How presumptuous of you!! Arafat rightly walked away from the Camp David talks citing cantonization of Palestinian land.

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wantsoftheflesh:
Nope thought we waz over dat? If ya believe arafat over clinton, ross an' many others then da ya also believe arsfat dat jesus was da original pally matryr?

The map of the settlements speaks for itself. And they continue to proliferate. You simply cannot pretend they are not invasive and and do not violate the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as international calls to withdraw Israeli citizens from Palistinian land. The settlements are the greatest obstacle to peace in the ME.

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ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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nut sure dats 100% correct. da jews in iran were persecuted in da 19th c. pop went from over 120,000 ta bout 20,000 today. yup money waz offered ta leave but it is hard ta leave an' entire families leavin' is restricted.

The 20,000 number is mostly Persian Jews, Ethnic Parsa of the Jewish faith. Many stats don't take into account the Boghor/Boxori, who are Ethnically Uzbeki, and all of them are Jewish (their language is East Persian mixed with Hebrew). Indeed, it is hard. In no way sahpe or form am I defending the IRI (Islamic Republic of Iran).

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yup da arab nations have laws discriminatin against da pallys an' theres truth in what ya say bout some arab leaderships like jordan but what bout syria, iran an' lebanon? those nations allow an' even facilitate da aggression. welcome ta cm by da way.

Alot of it is politics. Talk the talk but don't walk the walk. The Palestinians need more than financial support. And yes, I do not care for the leadership of those nations, and their oppression. Thank you for the welcome! It's nice to be here. And I've seen people commenting on your writing style...it's just fine. I understand you perfectly.

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i think ya posted dat map before an' it waz problematic. I get DesideriScuri's confusion too cuze da map makes no distinction between illegal outposts dat are often dismantled an' official recognized settlements. i keep readin' dat no official settlements were established since da late 90's after oslo, an a map

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da map doesnt refute da claim of contiguous territory for da pallys anyhoo cuze many were ta be dismantled. contiguous territory waz also a principle in da clinton parameters so na way can handin' back over 90% of territory be a case of bantrustians or whatnot. all ya have is arafat's word over clinton, dennis ross an' others an' man dats nuthin special.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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i think ya posted dat map before an' it waz problematic. I get DesideriScuri's confusion too cuze da map makes no distinction between illegal outposts dat are often dismantled an' official recognized settlements. i keep readin' dat no official settlements were established since da late 90's after oslo, an a map

On December 3, 2012 this article from the JewishJournaldotcom:

The United States on Monday reiterated its opposition to new Israeli settlement activity on West Bank land including in the site known as "E1," which it said could be especially damaging to efforts to achieve a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"The United States opposes all unilateral actions, including West Bank settlement activity and housing construction in East Jerusalem, as they complicate efforts to resume direct, bilateral negotiations," State Department spokeman Mark Toner said in a statement.

[SNIP]

Israel announced plans to build 3,000 more homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem on Friday, a day after the U.N. General Assembly granted de facto recognition to Palestinian statehood over Israeli and U.S. objections.

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da map doesnt refute da claim of contiguous territory for da pallys anyhoo cuze many were ta be dismantled. contiguous territory waz also a principle in da clinton parameters so na way can handin' back over 90% of territory be a case of bantrustians or whatnot. all ya have is arafat's word over clinton, dennis ross an' others an' man dats nuthin special.

Although in U.S. media Barak's offer was often portrayed as being "generous," the Israeli group Gush Shalom stated[29] that "the offer is a pretense of generosity for the benefit of the media", and included detailed maps of what the offer specifically entailed. Among Gush Shalom's concerns with Barak's offer were Barak's demand to annex large settlement blocs (9% of the West Bank) with no Israeli land given to a proposed Palestinian state in return, the lack of contiguity that the settlement blocs would cause for a Palestinian state, lack of trust in the commitment and/or ability of the Israeli government to evacuate the thousands of non-bloc Israeli settlers in the 15-year timeline, limited sovereignty for Palestinians in Jerusalem (the historically important Arab neighborhoods such as Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan,and At-Tur would remain under Israeli sovereignty, while Palestinians would only have sovereignty over the outer Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem), the lack of Palestinian sovereignty over holy sites in Jerusalem (Palestinians would only receive "administrative control" over their holy sites, and the Old City's Muslim and Christian Quarters, however Israel was to receive complete sovereignty over Jewish holy sites, and the Old City's Jewish and Armenian Quarters).[citation needed]
SOURCE

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Clinton blamed Arafat after the failure of the talks, stating, "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." The failure to come to an agreement was widely attributed to Yasser Arafat, as he walked away from the table without making a concrete counter-offer and because Arafat did little to quell the series of Palestinian riots that began shortly after the summit.[23][26][27] Arafat was also accused of scuttling the talks by Nabil Amr, a former minister in the Palestinian Authority.[28]

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ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
Wantsoftheflesh -

Here is what I found online.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukharan_Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Jews
(Unfortunately, neither of these articles mention the ones in Iran, just the ones who used to live in Iran. The articles do not seem to take into account the migratory nature of some of the Boxori. Like the Romany/Gypsies, migratory/nomadic people are hard to get an accurate number on)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews (article claims only 8,000 or so still in Iran. Again hard to get an accurate number as much comes from Official Government sources, who cannot seem to decide if Iran is a Paradise for Jews or "Judenrein", both of which are incorrect and misleading)

Most other sites (including the oh-so-trustworthy Iranian government sites) place the number from 8,000-30,000. I stand corrected, wantsoftheflesh, the total number is likely closer to 20,000. Sad. Persia has a rich Jewish history. Kourosh (Cyrus the Great), Khashayar (Xerxes, or Ahasuerus in the Book of Esther), Jews flourished under these men. Before the "revolution" they flourished. Now, they are strangers in their own homes. I cannot stand the IRI though I will always love Persia.

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I don't understand wtf is going on there at all.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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I don't understand wtf is going on there at all.

It's really very simple DS.

Israel wants to steal the entire West Bank for itself and to deny Palestinians the right to self determination and their own State. It is doing so by colony/settlement expansion and the ugly mixture of terrorism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing detailed above. What legitimate reason could Israel have for building colonies on land that the entire world recognises is earmarked for a Palestinian State? None.

By its actions and choices, Israel tells us it values possession of Palestinian land more than peace. One consequence of the Israeli rejection of peace is that Israel bears full moral responsibility for all subsequent violence.

All the BS you hear is Zionists trying to obfuscate the matter - the utterly irrelevant rants about the fate of Iranian Jews being a perfect case in point - why should Palestinians pay the price for the alleged crimes of Iranians? What does something alleged to have happened in Iran have to do with Palestinians? Nothing. But it does help cloud the matter and that is precisely the reason why Zionists throw such irrelevant crap out - to confuse people.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
All the BS you hear is Zionists trying to obfuscate the matter - the utterly irrelevant rants about the fate of Iranian Jews being a perfect case in point - why should Palestinians pay the price for the alleged crimes of Iranians? What does something alleged to have happened in Iran have to do with Palestinians? Nothing. But it does help cloud the matter and that is precisely the reason why Zionists throw such irrelevant crap out - to confuse people.

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Yup dat waz a big story at christmas but it wazn't bout israel establishing new official settlements jus buildin' on existing ones.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Yup dat waz a big story at christmas but it wazn't bout israel establishing new official settlements jus buildin' on existing ones.

Just building on existing ones? Like there is justification for that? Imagine if your neighbor said that to you. Just expanding the existing ones? How is that significantly different from adding new ones? Clearly, Israel is expanding its population into Palestinian land.
As of July 2009, 304,569 Israelis were living in 121 authorised settlements and 102 unauthorised settlement outposts on the West Bank and 192,000 Israelis were living in East Jerusalem.[20][21] As of June 2011, 340,000 Israeli Jews were living on the West Bank, excluding Jerusalem (the current population figures are estimated at 350,000). [SNIP]
In addition to internal migration, in large though declining numbers, the settlements absorb annually about 1000 new immigrants from outside Israel. In the 1990s, the annual settler population growth was more than three times the annual population growth in Israel.[44] Population growth has continued in the 2000s.[45] According to the BBC, the settlements in the West Bank have been growing at a rate of 5–6% since 2001.[21]
SOURCE
Do the math. Look at the updated maps and chart of Israeli population growth in the settlements. What nonsense from you. Not amusing. Tragic what is being done to the Palestinians. In the name of the Nazi Holocaust victims Israel promotes a Palestinian holocaust. The Nakba continues. And the US abides it. Pretty disgusting. There is nothing you can say to justify such naked aggression. Clearly, Israel is playing out its own "manifest destiny" expansion to the east to drive away the natives or isolate them on reservations.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Yup dat waz a big story at christmas but it wazn't bout israel establishing new official settlements jus buildin' on existing ones.

Just building on existing ones? Like there is justification for that? Imagine if your neighbor said that to you. Just expanding the existing ones? How is that significantly different from adding new ones? Clearly, Israel is expanding its population into Palestinian land.

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Do the math. Look at the updated maps and chart of Israeli population growth in the settlements. What nonsense from you. Not amusing. Tragic what is being done to the Palestinians. In the name of the Nazi Holocaust victims Israel promotes a Palestinian holocaust. The Nakba continues. And the US abides it. Pretty disgusting. There is nothing you can say to justify such naked aggression. Clearly, Israel is playing out its own "manifest destiny" expansion to the east to drive away the natives or isolate them on reservations.

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Wouldn't that be an absolute hoot. Palestinians gain Statehood, and all the Jews within the borders end up as Palestinians. Would love to see the looks on the faces...

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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Wouldn't that be an absolute hoot. Palestinians gain Statehood, and all the Jews within the borders end up as Palestinians. Would love to see the looks on the faces...

There's not much point in talking about Palestinian Statehood as long as the colonies/settlements remain.
The explicit self-declared purpose of the colonies, according to the settlers/colonist leaders, is to prevent the formation of a Palestinian State. The level of infiltration of colonies is such that a Two-State solution, as favoured by almost the entire world, is now practically impossible without massive dislocation.
Israeli greed and expansionism has destroyed the Two-State solution as a viable option. Why? Because the Israelis so self-evidently want the West Bank for themselves. But they don't want the Palestinians who have lived on that land for centuries. Hence the terrorism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing as Israel tries its hardest to make life impossible for the indigenous population and supplant them with some US taxpayer-subsidised Israeli Johnny-come-latelys.
Here's one example on video of how Israel goes about its ethnic cleansing: http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/israel-bulldozes-west-bank-homes-video. House demolitions, well destruction, crop destruction, property seizures, settler assaults, child abduction and torture, and the rest of the arsenal that Israel deploys to ethnically cleanse the West Bank of its Palestinian population are all everyday events on the West Bank.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, the settlers are preventing statehood? How is that? I don't see that as something that is legitimate. Like, I said, though, if Palestine is created (and, exactly how is that supposed to happen considering Gaza and the West Bank are separated?!?!?), all the Jews that live within Palestine's border will become Palestinians, won't they?

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So, the settlers are preventing statehood? How is that? I don't see that as something that is legitimate. Like, I said, though, if Palestine is created (and, exactly how is that supposed to happen considering Gaza and the West Bank are separated?!?!?), all the Jews that live within Palestine's border will become Palestinians, won't they?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So, the settlers are preventing statehood? How is that? I don't see that as something that is legitimate. Like, I said, though, if Palestine is created (and, exactly how is that supposed to happen considering Gaza and the West Bank are separated?!?!?), all the Jews that live within Palestine's border will become Palestinians, won't they?

Ahhh . . . that's the rub, innit? Israel refuses to give up the settlements. Many settlers are armed, orthodox, and unlikely to submit to Palestinian rule. Nor are they likely to go quietly without resistance even if Israel makes demands on them. How will Israel enforce the removal of 500,000 settlers who for the most part were encouraged to occupy Palestinian land? Any suggestions? Your question strikes me as a bit naive.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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So, the settlers are preventing statehood? How is that? I don't see that as something that is legitimate. Like, I said, though, if Palestine is created (and, exactly how is that supposed to happen considering Gaza and the West Bank are separated?!?!?), all the Jews that live within Palestine's border will become Palestinians, won't they?

Ahhh . . . that's the rub, innit? Israel refuses to give up the settlements. Many settlers are armed, orthodox, and unlikely to submit to Palestinian rule. Nor are they likely to go quietly without resistance even if Israel makes demands on them. How will Israel enforce the removal of 500,000 settlers who for the most part were encouraged to occupy Palestinian land? Any suggestions? Your question strikes me as a bit naive.

Follow the logic, though. When the Articles of Confederation and then the US Constitution were enacted and ratified, everyone here were, essentially, Americans, under American rule. I can see how there could be an issue of resistance to Palestinian rule, but that could be thwarted with UN forces, couldn't it? The UN could send in the blue hats to stand up for Palestine until Palestine could stand for itself.

I simply don't understand why both sides will talk about a 2-State solution, will openly support it, but will, in the end, nix the deal with their actions, or other talk. And, wouldn't it have to be a 3-State solution considering Gaza and the West Bank aren't together?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Constitution was ratified by the legislators of the several states. AFAIK no one has offered a vote to the settler communities. They are represented by Israel. The same Israel who has encouraged the settlements.
The negotiations for a two state solution included a safe commercial passage across Israel I think.

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It is not the mission of the UN to act as a defense force. Just peace observers. Isn't that so?

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The Purposes of the United Nations are:


1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and
4. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

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