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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 12:36:07 AM   
sskitten


Posts: 43
Joined: 9/15/2005
Status: offline 		(to all):
 
As far as I understand it, Susan did not come here looking for sympathy, validation, opinions, or to cast blame or unburden herself of blame.  She came to share her experience with someone in a similar situation.  Since that person, the OP's friend, has not spoken one word on this thread, and since some of the others who shared their experiences seem to have bowed out of the dialogue at least for now, it seems more of the focus turned to Susan's specific situation and to her reactions to the posts.  But please let us remember that she came out of hibernation to help another who is hurting.  We do not need to add to her own pain.  I cannot understand what is to be gained by that.
 
I weighed in awhile back (on p. 8) to speak up for incognito and to observe that I had not heard her blaming her husband and that she had not had any kind of physical affection from him for ten years.  At that point, RS made a post that no one seemed to take issue with, but I do, in the portion quoted here:
 
quote:

ReflectiveSoul
 
I can fully understand needing the intimacy of hugs and cuddling and things of that nature. The lack of such things speaks volumes of that lack of basic friendship within their marriage. I am NOT saying that women in a completely loveless marriage ( atleast one way ) should stay. But to base leaving on just the lack of sexual attention in my eyes is wrong. Leaving because of the lack of any contact at all... no mutual adoration for eachother in some form, is I believe understandable. I wouldnt condemn anyone to a life with a basic stranger, which at the point of all attention being taken away is what the relationship devolves into.
 
My stance alone has been against those who are just complaining about the lack of sex. Sex doesnt make relationships fail or work. How many times have we seen people come to the boards or to us as friends crying because their sexual conquest of the week has dumped them? You can not base a relationship on the basis of sex and sex alone, or the lack there of. People are complex and just one aspect does not make or break them. But I also feel it is important that if blame is going to be placed on a relationship failing because one party lacks the sexual interest of the other, that the blame not be placed on the one who does not want or desire. It is that persons right to not want something.
 
That would be like saying I am going to leave someone because I want his nipples pierced and he doesnt.... that he is such an asshole because he wouldnt do that for me. It is HIS body to do with what he chooses, not what someone else chooses for him because they want it....  

 
I take issue with this post for several reasons:  I suspect most times if sex has been withdrawn there are other problems in the relationship as well, particularly if the withdrawing partner is not doing anything to help the other find some way to address his/her longings.  And an absence of physical affection does not necessarily mean an absence of love in one direction, or an absence of friendship.  We don't know enough about any of these marriages to make that assumption or any other.  Perhaps   incognito's husband loves his wife very much but is truly incapable of expressing his love physically.  And the final analogy was pretty absurd...
 
Susan later let us know that her marriage, like incognito's, was devoid of affection, not just sex.  It seems to me there are considerable similarities between Susan's and incognito's marriages and their reactions.  As RS herself states above, people are complex (and so are relationships!).  We are hearing only a tiny sliver of very complex dynamics.  Incognito has suggested that perhaps the OP's friend's husband and Susan's husband have/had Sexual Aversion Disorder.  It is easier to have compassion for something baffling and sometimes infuriating when one can understand that it is beyond the other person's ability to control. 
 
For those who speak of the relationships as if it's an obvious choice to leave or "suck it up!" - this is not the least bit helpful.  The OP's friend and Susan and incognito tried to "suck it up" for a long time and it seems the OP's friend will do so for three more years.  But sucking it up can be a sad and dangerous thing to do, even if it might seem to be a noble or loving resolution.  What they have all found is that it's really not possible to go on indefinitely trying to be a good sport while feeling dead or desperate inside.  And if one deadens oneself to avoid pain or conflict, you can bet that communication is deteriorating rather than improving. 
 
Almost all of the talk on this thread has been about intellectualizing things, analyzing things, deciding things.  Most of us are all too good at analyzing things and putting our attention to trying to understand reasons for our own behaviors or the behaviors of a loved one.  I've had my share of therapy too, and my therapist had a very different approach.  She told me that thinking and talking about my situation was actually one more way of avoiding facing my feelings.  She said that I seem to have spent my life hiding from any "bad" feelings that might arise.  When she would ask me how I was feeling and I would try to answer as honestly and openly as I could, she would usually say things like, "You say you are angry, but look at your body language.  You are slumped in your chair.  You don't look angry to me.  What do you feel like doing when you feel your anger?" and I would say over and over again that I didn't feel like doing anything.  And she kept prodding me.  She made it clear she wasn't advocating that I act on all my impulses (if I felt like shaking someone's shoulders or slapping them or killing them it didn't mean I should actually go out and do so), but she wanted me to be very aware of how I felt inside, to feel my feelings, and not to hide from my darker emotions.
 
It almost didn't matter why I felt angry.  It didn't matter if my anger was justified.  What mattered was that I was angry and that I had spent years trying to ignore my anger until I had deadened myself inside, and even when I began to wake up inside, my anger was so scary to me that I did everything possible to deflect it.  I didn't hate him - I loved him.  But my anger was immense.  It was easier to laugh about it or hide from it than to face it.
 
I never did tell my husband how angry I was (and sometimes still am).  But somehow, being permitted and encouraged to feel the full force of my anger - mostly in the safety of my therapy sessions - was incredibly therapeutic.  I didn't face 1/100th of the pain that those who've shared here have surely faced, but still it was painful enough that I deadened myself for years in order to be able to "suck up" frustrations and coexist peacefully with my husband.  But I don't think sucking up is healthy.  Unless one has truly come to peace with a situation, sucking up means faking being content.  And after years of sucking up, it is very very hard to make a decision to leave, because the years of sucking up and hiding from one's longings and feelings really do start to eat away at one's self esteem.  And you think:  "I've lasted this long... it's bearable... if I just keep myself deadened inside.... " It becomes habitual self-deprivation until it just becomes more unbearable.... but the tendency is to suck it up a bit more, maybe deaden oneself more to burrow even more deeply away from those longings....  and one begins to lose sight of oneself altogether, unless and until there is an awakening.... which is what those who've shared here have experienced...
 
So I'm reading 11 pages of this thread and I'm thinking:  Those who described their situations tried to say how much pain they were/are in, but that is not what people wanted to respond to.  Some people are tending to talk about what decision(s) or choices they think make sense, or who should shoulder blame, and some are scolding some of those who've shared their stories for staying too long in unhealthy situations.  Many people seem to be making the assumption that these hurting women can just move on with their lives, just get over it, just leave or deal with it.  If it were that easy, they would have done it long years ago, and they have tried to make that point.  If staying too long has caused them internal damage, that is all the more reason for us to offer compassion rather than criticism.
 

< Message edited by sskitten -- 6/22/2006 12:47:12 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 2:16:22 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Timeoutgurlie,

In my situation there never was any sexual contact to begin with.  I always had long term relationships that had a pretty fair amount of intimacy and sexual activity, but vanilla.  At the end of my LAST relationship, I discovered BDSM and had one 8 month affair with a dom, that was pure heaven. It was never intended to be a LTR, so when it was over, I was very eager (too eager perhaps) to find a LTR with a Dominant partner.  When I met my husband, in my eagerness to please, I allowed him to determine the pace of the relationship.  There were always excuses (some pretty valid, others I shoulda taken the blinders off) as to why he was not like other men I had been with.  At first our relationship was very long distance, (I was from NC, he from NY) and finally I moved up to NY.  From the beginning I was given my own room (I told myself he was being a gentleman), then his mother died and he was hit with a lot of family responsibilities.  My new job had me on the road a lot.  I started to feel that something wasn't right and became a little more assertive in my advances towards him.  For reflective soul, I do not feel that I was cruel or angry or pushy.  I am a very affectionate person, and sitting next to him, I would have my hands all over him, leaning into him, rubbing his back, legs, arms, kissing his neck.  And he would just sit there like stone, or laugh and say my nuzzling his neck tickled, or something like that.  I dressed in fetish wear (which he loved) but nothing ever happened.  I invited him to take showers with me, I would soap him down, if I asked him to soap me down, he would, but it was the most brief of touches.  I tried to please him orally, he would laugh and pull out of my mouth saying it was too intense, or it tickled.  The few times he did actually touch my breasts, he was like a child giving them silly pet names and the briefest of squeezes or jiggles and then move onto washing his hair (all this was in the shower still, btw).  I tried talking to him, asking him if he was not attracted to me.  I didn't understand.  I had always been attractive to men.  I asked if I was being to pushy.  He always answered the right way, and there was always an excuse.  I became depressed.  I told him I thought something might be wrong.  He ended up submitting to some things that I did for him (I tried a butt plug on him).  It was obvious he was enduring it to make me happy, but wasn't really enjoying it.  He liked to tie me up in rope while I was dressed in fetish wear.  But he would tie me up, and then put me in a chair next to him and he would look at bondage pictures on the computer, but would never touch me.  He did like for me to brush his lips with mine each night before I headed to bed and before I left the house.  I think this was to give him the illusion that we were still a couple.  I finally, very depressed by this time, and insisted we get counseling.  He was reluctant to go, but I told him that I couldn't see myself going through my entire life with no intimacy, no touching, no sex ever again.  So he went.  It didn't go very well.  By the third session, he had not stated why we were there yet and we pretty much used the time to discuss other things that had begun to bother me as well (control issues, for he was very afraid that I would cheat on him and put unnecessary restrictions on me, things I didn't feel I deserved).  I finally, in my frustration, blurted out to the therapist that we had been together one year, and no sex, almost no touching at all.  It embarrassed him and he stormed out of the session and would not go back.  I did eventually leave him before the one year anniversary of our meeting.  This is where it gets really sick.  He worked me and worked me and worked me, begging me for another chance, promising to work on the issue, making other concessions (regarding the control issues). 
This was a very, very painful time for me.  I do not have it in me to be ruthless.  I cared for him as a person, I hated hurting him.  I DO have co-dependency issues and he didn't mind thowing himself at my feet in tears (literally).  I finally, reluctantly, against my better judgement, stupidly, agreed to come back on a trial basis.  I remember thinking with a sinking heart, that he would see for himself this was not going to work.  The day I moved back in, he took me to my room and said he knew I was tired and he would just sleep across the hall tonight.  And that was the way it was until now.  I am not sure how it happened, but I think it was my way of coping with the loss of my dreams, but I successfully supressed my need for affection (sorta) for 8 years.  I threw myself into other things that fulfilled me.  He benefitted greatly by this.  As I mentioned above, I am a very affectionate person.  Without the outlet that I was used to, I focused that affection and expressed it in other ways.  I did everything to make him happy and I am here to tell you, I was a smashing success.  He had been a bit of a loner before I met him.  I opened his eyes to exotic places, I took him on trips, showered him with expensive gifts, treated him like a king.  I landscaped his yard, helped him finish the basement in his house to one hell of an office and family room.  I introduced him to nudism (which he could take or leave).  His family was all gone now. I have a huge loving family and they opened their arms to him.  We never fight.  I was numb, but I didn't hurt anymore. I  found a measure of happiness in the fabulous suprises that I plotted and executed.  When we had been together 7 years, he retired from his job up north and I went back to work at my old job in the south.  He sold his house and we bought land and in the south and built a gorgeous dream home.  Two years ago, he asked me to marry him. (omigod, my two year anniversary is in three days).  I remember having a brief nagging thought that our relationship wasn't quite "right", but I told myself that I had made myself happy for the last 7 years, I had learned to do without, there were good things about this man and hell, I didn't even have to shave my legs every night.  We got married, had a big fancy wedding.  On our wedding night, he spent the night in my room because we had a household full of guests.  He never touched me, I didn't expect it.  A month before our first year anniversary, after a series of highs (my parents 50th wedding anniversary which I planned and pulled of a huge celebration) his birthday (with a huge surprise party for my husband with friends coming from up north and probably the most expensive gift I have ever given him) and then a trip to Myrtle Beach to visit his former boss and his wife, while we were there,  for reasons that I can only think was because of all the highs of that month, I woke up and remembered who I used to be.  I realized that I had changed dramatically.  I was "settled" and I used to be such a lively free spirit.  I watched my husbands wife interact with her husband and I remembered affection, I remembered the intimacy and the looks that passed between two ADULT people, one male, one female. Words cannot explain the pain that hit me, sitting there at the dinner table with all of these laughing people.  We went to bed and I sat awake all night long, going to the bathroom to cry where I would not be heard. 

There is, of course, much more to this story (SSKitten knows it), but that pretty much should answer your question as to how I got here in the first place. 

I am editing my post to add a thought.  There have been many times in the last 13 months (since I came out of the deep sleep I feel I was in) that I have wished I could put this genie back in the bottle and just go back to sleep.  In a lot of ways, the numbness was preferable to the yearning and the haunting knowledge that as I am, I can't continue this way and some tough decisions have to be made that are going to be very painful for me and for my husband.  But, no matter how much resolve I have to try and supress again, I have been unable to accomplish that.  On the other hand..........do I want my life to end one day with the knowledge that I only lived half of what was given to me to live.  Already as it stands, I cannot get back the 10 years I have allowed to go by, half asleep.  The other thing I want to make sure anyone who reads this understands........I know that my lack of backbone and my inability to take care of myself first, is the reason I am here and disatisfied.  I DON'T blame my husband.  He was able to do what I was unable to do.  He took what he needed, he thought of his needs first.  Isn't that what everyone says I should be doing?  If so, then how can you really blame him?  I don't. 

< Message edited by incognitobynight -- 6/22/2006 3:10:17 AM >

(in reply to timeoutgurlie)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:08:12 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		If not thinking of your needs first, at least thinking of them with equal importance. What may be upsetting some here is the feeling of "okay, some of you have explained your conundrum, here's the key to getting out of it", and the response appears to be "no thanks, I just want/need to 'complain' about it". I don't mean that to be insulting, honestly.
 
Of course, the "complainers" don't see it as such, to them it's a matter of opening up their hearts to air out wounds they've recieved. Here we have two groups of people (yes, a vast generalization), they see things differently, and I feel it unlikely that such a divide will ever be breached, much less on the boards here.
 

(in reply to incognitobynight)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:15:00 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Kitten,

You always amaze me with your ability to empathize, sympathize and comfort.(I love you)  You are right, I did not come here looking for sympathy, but to share my experience and to learn from the experiences of others.  After the more harsh judgements we have felt leveled against those of us that find ourselves in this predicament, I have to confess that your words ARE comforting and I thank you for them.  I also wanted to say that while I would wish this on NO ONE, it has been strangely comforting to know that I am not the only one out there that has experienced this.  This forum has provided me with an opportunity to know that there ARE people who will understand what I have done to myself and how it has affected me and how it will probably affect me for the rest of my life, no matter what I end up doing about this situation.  SusanofO in particular has provided me with a vision of hope for the future.  She still obviously has issues to deal with, but by her own words, she is happy now, released and relieved now.  I aspire to reach the level she has one day.  This is not a pity party, although those who have no patience for the imperfections of us mere mortals, may see if that way.  It is sharing of experiences, learning from others missteps as well as their triumphs.  I am thankful that there are some who are willing to share and I am dismayed, as you are, that there are some that must dig deep and search each word to find fault to hurl into the face of the person sharing their experiences.  Why?  What is the point?  Don't they think that we beat ourselves up just fine by ourselves???  Trust me.   They can be no harder on us than we already are.  Thanks again Kitten for the warmth.  I can never get too much of it. 

(in reply to sskitten)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:33:00 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I posted on this thread way back before all these tangents started being drawn in.


The OP stated a situation and asked for thoughts.  The thoughts , if they don't want to do that, then accept it and move forward, the cries of "you don't understand" start.  When they post that they aren't all that sympathetic with someone who chooses to stay in a situation but wants to complain about it, then the cries of "you don't understand or you haven't been there" start.  

Interesting how the further away from just offering tea and sympathy we get, the worse we become.

I cheated...until I could not stand myself for being dishonest.  I left.  Suddenly, her sex drive came back.  Seeing that, I moved back.  Oddly enough, it went away again.  I left for good.  So, I've been there, done that.  As I said in my original post, the person in question in the original post has a difficult decision to make.  But it's way past time to do it.  So now...am I judgmental?  Well...so are we all, in something.



Creative Dominant,

A lot of what you say in your post is true.  However, being on the receiving end of what feels like "harsh judgement being passed", it appeared to me that a lot of the usual suspects (i.e. regulars on the board) pretty much responded the way they respond to a multitude of threads and that is with a tone that says "suck it up or leave and if you don't leave, you deserve what you get".   I was not looking for sympathy, I was sharing an experience (which is what the OP asked for).  In response to sharing my experience, I got a bunch of unasked for advice, along with some pretty harsh commentary.  These people appear to me to be COMPLAINING that I posted my experience, they don't want to hear it, they say.  I wasn't TALKING TO THEM!!!!!  Now, if they feel the MUST issue ultimatums to us ("suck it up, or leave"), don't be surprised if we react adversely to that. 

I finish this with the request that you look at the last paragraph of your post.  YOU went back because your ex suddenly found her sex drive, only to have to leave a second time.  This tells me that while you were disatisfied in your relationship, it was not an easy thing for you to break it off permanently the first time.  WHY would anyone think it was any easier for us?  Why because you have "been there, done that".....would you feel that we aren't going to have to "go there and do that" before we are finally finished as well?  Just a question.  I sincerely and respectfully await your sympathetic,empathetic, tea-and-biscuit bought response. 

< Message edited by incognitobynight -- 6/22/2006 4:34:20 AM >

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:45:09 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO


- I am concerned about incognito and the OP's friend. I hope things turn out okay. I know they aren't leaving thier situations (yet). I do think that's their decision, and we probably helped by just listening and offerring our own experiences (for whatever they are worth). - Susan   


Susan,  I would have never thought that this kind of thing would be that helpful, but it really has helped.  I take hope from some of the things you have written.  Some of the experiences of other posters have given me things to think about.  Some people have chosen not to post, but have written to my mailbox and are in the same boat.  It DOES help to talk about it, and it DOES help to know how others are dealing with it.  And it DOES help to know that occasionally I offer something that is of help to others.  I wonder if there is some kind of support group out there for this kind of thing.  Again....it's been helpful. I APPRECIATE that you are here.

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:51:55 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha


1. Accept it, and stay and shut up about it.
or
2. Do something about it.

Piss or get off the pot. This may sound cold and rude but in reality those are the only choices you have.



I rest my case.

(in reply to akisha)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:58:29 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		*fast reply*
Sometimes, people just need to talk.  They aren't looking for others to analyze their situation and deliver up a solution wrapped up in a gift box.  Sometimes, as in this thread, they just want to share a similar experience in their own life, as many people benefit from the simple knowledge that someone else has had the same experience.  These women live their lives in a constant state of pain.  They, for whatever reasons, have not taken steps to end their pain.  Should they be forced to never talk about the pain they are having?  Should they keep that internalized as well?  Therapy is great, but sometimes, just talking with someone who is a contemporary helps.  Everyone must make their own decisions in their own time, in their own way.  Everyone deals with their personal pain in their own way.  If you don't like how a person is handling her situation, that's fine.  Everyone has an opinion, as we all well know.  A little thought before you post goes a long way.  A little compassion needs to be applied sometimes.

I have a lot of compassion for these women.  I lived in a loveless, sexless marriage for 15 years before I left it.  I had an affair because of it.  That affair probably saved my life, honestly, but that didn't make it any more right to do.  I did finally choose to end the relationship, but extenuating circumstances are just that, extenuating circumstances.  Sometimes, it takes a while to reconcile oneself to what must be done; making a choice. 

People are allowed their own time and own space to make their choice.  Writing about it here is just another form of analyzing the situation, weighing options, making a choice.  They are between a rock and a hard place.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could all judge situations instantaneously to make the choice of a lifetime?  A choice in which someone, perhaps everyone, will be hurt.  That's so much better than careful consideration and weighing of all options and yes, talking it out. 



_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to incognitobynight)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 4:59:40 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No disrespect intended Knight.  But that may be easy to say when you have 3 available women to meet your sexual needs. 


This is slightly off topic... 

marie,

It seems from your statements that there is a line of thinking that isn't necessarily accurate.  Yes, he has alandra and I to meet all his needs, wants and desires.  Usually, it doesn't really matter whether it is her or I that meets them.  However, needs, wants and desires are sometimes person specific and can't be satisfied by anyone else.  Sometimes all he wants is "his kyra" and because of distance, he can't have me.   No matter how many times alandra peforms that same action that he wants from me, his want, desire and need will not be satisfied until he can get it from me.  The three of us end up feeling helpless and frustrated, but this is the life and  relationship we chose, so we deal with it as best as we can.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to marieToo)
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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:00:54 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No disrespect intended Knight.  But that may be easy to say when you have 3 available women to meet your sexual needs.  How would you feel in a *monogamous* marriage, resigning yourself to never having sex again....oh.....or ANY kind of affection for that matter.  Suck it up and masturbate for the rest of your life?  Maybe wrap your arms around yourself?  Kiss your own hand and pretend its your spouse?   People in marriages need affections, bonding and intimacy of a physical nature.

Furthermore your example of women complaining that men want sex,  held up against this women who was in a sexless marriage complaining about not getting sex is comparing apples to oranges.  You are taking a generalization of "women complaining about men wanting sex"  and holding one  person in particular responsible for that, in implying that she complains that shes not getting it from her husband.  That was really out there.


No Disrespect Recieved... You seem to miss the point of the post.  First.... A person makes a choice to stay or leave such a relationship.  I don't have much use for those that make the choice to stay, but they whine and cry about how hard it is  SUCK IT UP or leave. 
 

She did suck it up.  For some 10 years, then the man was diagnosed with cancer and subsequently passed away. 


Im glad that you created the situation you did for yourself and that it has worked for you.  Yes to a great degree *we* control our lives and circumstances.  But you know what?  Sometimes life throws you a curveball anyway.  And thats what this girl got.   I think its pretty honorable that she sucked it up for so many years in the interest of keeping her vows.  

What appears to be "whining" and crying about it, is most likely, the residual effect it had on her self-esteem.  ie....  Was I too skinny?  Was I too fat?  Did he not like the way I touched him?  The way I smelled?  The way I moved?  Was I not pretty enough?  good enough?  sexy enough?  I could be wrong, but *this* is what I get from reading this girl.  Not a cry for a group pity party, but more a cry for someone (yes even strangers) to say..."look, sometimes this kind of thing happens and yeah its ok that it left you a bit screwed up.  And no, it wasn't your fault because he couldnt/wouldnt fuck you". "You didnt do anything wrong", "You didnt rob him of anything in the last years of his life"."sometimes these things happen for reasons that are beyond your control".  "And yeah, you need to move on without feeling guilt." Apparently she is stuck in that spot and needs a boost to get past it. Maybe....just maybe that is what she needs instead of being battered with "stop feeling sorry for yourself, suck it up, its your fault for staying".  etc etc.   

I guess it all comes down to personal interpretation of a particular post.  And you know what?  When I write on a thread, I try to keep my remarks to the Poster that Im addressing and I try to avoid critiquing others' posts, because I cant stand when people do that to me.  But I slipped up this time and did the exact same thing to you.  I read the thread and felt terrible for this girl. Because for whatever reason, whether she needed tough love or compassion, she didnt get anything positive here.  And that made me feel badly.  But then who am I to tell anyone what to say or how to say it?  I should have just had the self control to not critisise your post.  It was the last one I read before commenting.  So you got the brunt of it.    I apologize for doing that, and for reaching into your personal life and using that to make my point.


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:04:09 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
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That said... the idea of remaining in a marriage or relationship with someone who does not or cannot fulfill your needs is repugnant to me.  I am sure that coming up with rationalizations provides some comfort but it has to be cold comfort indeed.    As many have said - make your decision and live with it.   I think that there must be some trade offs... something that keeps the woman the OP wrote about in that situation, we can sit around and offer all the advice in the world but in the end the woman will need to decide what it is that she wants and pursue it.   No one posting an opinion (myself included though I am wise beyond the telling of it and never wrong) is going to come up with anything that she hasn't already thought of... and chances are there will be no 'EUREKA' moment that will motivate her to make changes she is not willing or able to make at the moment. 
 
Sumi
[/quote]

Sumi, 

The way I look at it is that it is a process.  I don't think anybody in this situation has a Eureka moment the first time their lover says no to sex (or affection or anything else that is important to them).  It is a process.  Acceptance that it is not going to change has to come before you can begin to grieve for the loss, rationalize (or whatever) weigh options, make decisions, etc.  I know 10 years seems like a long time......I tried for many, many years to cope by supressing my needs and thought I had done so.  I don't blame anybody for that but myself.  Now that I can no longer supress that part of my personality, I am having to deal with what I have done to myself for the past 8 years, I am grieving, I am getting therapy.  I worry about my husband (right or wrong, I still worry).  In order to do what I need to do, he is going to have to suffer.  Again, RIGHT OR WRONG, it's not a decision that will be easy for me.  Even though many of the more "tough love" crowd here find this inconvenient and it seems to bother them that we discuss it here (not so much that they just ignore us, however), it doesn't make it any less relevant to US.  It's a process.  Telling us to piss or get off the pot, accept it or shut up...........isn't helpful.  It just isn't.  If it makes them feel good to say things like that, then I can't stop them.  But make no mistake.........it gets them NO WHERE. Talk about doing the same ol thing and expecting different results...geeze (tic). 

(in reply to Sumimara)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:05:34 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No disrespect intended Knight.  But that may be easy to say when you have 3 available women to meet your sexual needs. 


This is slightly off topic... 

marie,

It seems from your statements that there is a line of thinking that isn't necessarily accurate.  Yes, he has alandra and I to meet all his needs, wants and desires.  Usually, it doesn't really matter whether it is her or I that meets them.  However, needs, wants and desires are sometimes person specific and can't be satisfied by anyone else.  Sometimes all he wants is "his kyra" and because of distance, he can't have me.   No matter how many times alandra peforms that same action that he wants from me, his want, desire and need will not be satisfied until he can get it from me.  The three of us end up feeling helpless and frustrated, but this is the life and  relationship we chose, so we deal with it as best as we can.

Knight's kyra


kyra:

I understand.  And I didn't even think it through to try to imagine the highly personal feelings that all of you experience.  I think it was a bad decision to even use it as an example, as I just explained to KoM, in my last post.  I appreciate your sharing something so personal with me.  And I do understand your point.  I hope no offense was taken. 

marie.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:10:19 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

marie,
 
I do believe the point in question was a statement based on how men are viewed as a whole.
 
women complain that men only want sex.
women complain when men dont want sex.
 
men just arent ever right, they express the want for sex they get accused of being pigs or they only want a piece.
They express not wanting any sex at all, they get labeled as being abusers.
 
its a no win situation for them.... 
 



That was a stereotypical response to a stereotype ;-)  Not all women feel either of the two things written above.  People are people are people are people.  To say all women think "anything" is an overstatement and to say "poor men" about all men is also an overstatement. 

(in reply to Reflectivesoul)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:18:31 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO





Susan:

If you are seeking compassion or understanding, you will be hard-put to find it here.  Gawd, ain't that the truth.

There is nothing wrong with you for feeling that your marriage was sorely lacking.  It doesnt make it anyones fault.  Your late husband had issues....whether they were physical/mental or whatever.  That doesnt make him at fault.  And you certainly are not at fault for needing the kind of affection that he couldnt give you.  My guess is that it was something inside of him, and not something that you were doing wrong. I understand internalizing it and second guessing yourself.  Ive done that in my Ds relationships in the past.  When they ended I always blamed myself or thought about what I shouldve done differently.  God, that is so common and so normal. Especially in your case, because he's not here to bounce this off of.  You may never have your closure, but you need to give it to yourself anyway.  You dont need to shoulder "blame".  I abhor that word, I always have.  No one is to blame.  We do the best we can.  Sometimes its enough, other times its not.  Sometimes we cant change ourselves, or the other person. Is there blame to place for that?  Of course not.  Try not to take it personally or be angry with your husband.  Just think of what he may have been feeling.  God only knows what was going on inside of him.  Maybe you never knew and never will.  But surely it mustve been hurting him in some way as well, just as it was hurting you, but in a *different* way.  There is nothing wrong with expecting sex, communication, honesty, dinner on the table, love, affection etc etc from each other in a marriage.  But sometimes one or the other just cant swing it for whatever reason.  Stop beating yourself up, and blaming yourself.  No matter what you say here, you are deep down blaming yourself and youre here because you want someone to tell you that it *isnt* your fault.  Well, its not.  Its no one's fault.  Shit happens, human beings make mistakes, have issues, have discomforts, have physical problems etc.  Try to go on with your life. The longer you hold onto this, the longer you stay on the stationary bike.  Its so easy to sit here and dole out advice, because Im not in your shoes. But you really are going to have to let it go and only you have the power to make that happen.  And the worst thing for you to do, is to absorb all the negative energy on these boards.  I would strongly recommend talking personally to a friend and keeping it out of this forum.  They will only make it harder on you. Best wishes to you.  This too shall pass.


Marie,

God, what a good post!  I too agree that it is useless to lay blame.  And I also pity my husband.  Imagine, he doesn't even know what he is missing.  I know that it is very uncomfortable for him to talk about it, and I know that he wishes he were different.  But, I don't believe he can change who or what he is.  My heart aches for him as much as it does for myself.  How I wish things were different. 

This was a very nice post and I agree, the negative energy on the boards is just so unnecessary.  I hate that Susan is being ganged up on here and that people can't see past their predjudices and finger pointing and just see that for whatever reason, she has been hurt and just deal with the wound and not feel it necessary to punish her for their perception of how she got the wound. 

Thanks for the good words Marie.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:20:35 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Someone should really put this group under a micrscope sometimes, and study group behavior on the internet.

Actually there are already several professors and texts on this topic exactly, even conferences which people go to discuss this exact topic.  I can get you some source info if you want.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:27:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Of course, the "complainers" don't see it as such, to them it's a matter of opening up their hearts to air out wounds they've recieved. Here we have two groups of people (yes, a vast generalization), they see things differently, and I feel it unlikely that such a divide will ever be breached, much less on the boards here.

I think if this thread had started in the Off Topic board (as it surely has zero to do with dominance or submission), or had been started with the intent of "We're just venting and wanting to know if other people are going through this so we can commiserate together" I think the thread would have taken a very different turn.

As it was, the thread was started to ask about others in the situation AND for advice on how to deal with it.

We are all ultimately responsible for ourselves and only ourselves.  As much as we go on about authority transfer, WE are still responsible for following orders.  We ultimately can only choose what works best for us- and this is actually the best "gift" I think we have in life. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:33:03 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I am glad if I helped. And for the record - I really don't care what anyone thinks about my "situation". I cannot believe how much some seem to have invested in their own "theories" about "why" someone is doing, or not doing, something. I don't recall asking for anyone's approval of my opinion - and for anyone who is wondering I am still not. Neither was the OP, or incognito, or anyone else who posted who has actually been in the situation, as described by the OP - emotionally and otherwise.

I was answering the OP's original post. It's fine to have an opinion, but it is not okay (I don't think) to run roughshod over someone who is seeking help or advice. It's rude and it's mean. I am not referrring to myself here - I truly couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of my situation (and don't recall asking anyone). But even if I did , so what about that? I think what some people do to other people in the name of "advice" is vulgar, hurtful and just plain wrong. Of course, as we all know - everyone has a right to their own opinion. God bless America.

Cant' some people - sometime, keep their thoughts to themselves - if they think it might be especially hurtful? They obviously don't think about that kind of thing. It's "more important to  be "right", I guess. Well, they're not. They just have what I term "poor impulse control." I appreciate what you said, but I am not going to be hanging around this thread post much anymore - I've seen all I want to see.

I appreciate the comments just posted this morning - they actually related to what the OP asked about and were not just veiled self-righteous attempts to give "advice" that probably in reality may very well have hurt  hurt someone else. I have not much, if anything, left to say. Which, for some of you, I am sure - will be a relief. I'm not hurt for myself - I really don't care what anyone thinks. I am way beyond that. I am disgusted and angry and I think it's time I got outta here...good luck discussing what ever is left to discuss about this topic. I know some have a lot of actually pertinent things to say - and I hope they say more of them. 

-Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/22/2006 5:47:35 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to incognitobynight)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:35:33 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		While all that is true, LA, many posters turned the thread from its focus, the OP and that situation, to Susan and Incognito, who shared their situations in an attempt to lend understanding for and to the OP.   

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:42:54 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I am not talking about LA - LA actually makes sense to me most of the time.
I am talking about the middle of last night. It was just - weird. You had to be there. I have no idea why I hanged around as long as I did - it wasn't constructive - it didn't accomplish anything. It was just draining.Which is why I eventually just left.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/22/2006 5:45:25 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/22/2006 5:44:33 AM   
incognitobynight


Posts: 61
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline 		Feastie,

Thank you.  Thank you.  Want some tea?

(in reply to feastie)
Profile   Post #: 240
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