RE: Collateral murder

RE: Collateral murder (Full Version)

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Nosathro -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 10:18:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters. The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties. Butch The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian? http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/11/02/counting_civilian_casualties_in_cia_s_drone_war

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 10:24:26 AM)
I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry. Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you. As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life".

DesideriScuri -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 10:29:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry. Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you. As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life". Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender). What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future?

Aylee -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 10:43:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 I realize in this thread, and others lately, I've been a bit out of line. It's been a bad few days but that's no excuse and I apologize. If I've offended anyone/hit nerves I am sorry. Aylee - That comment about Sex Offenders and race was uncalled for and juvenile, and I apologize. I shouldn't have said that to you. As to your comment about Egypt, a storm is headed very much in that direction. My advice to any Westerner living there right now is GTFO. I don't mean that as in "you don't belong" but as in "run for your life". Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender). What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future? Well, tourism (Egypt's money maker) is down due to political issues, i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt also imports A LOT of its food. The government also gives a lot of food and fuel subsidies. They cannot continue this without about 30 billion in foreign aid a year or raising their GDP. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/05/egyptians-short-on-food-are-told-to-eat-less/ Egypt is also having food riots. What is happening in Egypt is a self-made famine brought about by social and political disaster rather than crop failure or war.

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 10:58:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Kudo's on your "manning up" (or "womanning up," depending on your gender). What kind of storm are you talking about, regarding Egypt's not-so-distant future? No kudos need, sir, not why I said it (I'm a man, btw), it just needed to be said. As to Egypt, while Mubarak was a dictator, he was also secular and open to dialogue. You know those oppressed and jailed "religious dissidents"? Radicals. I mean radicals. They are now free from prison. A lot of these guys are too radical for the Muslim Brotherhood (which is also, in my opinion, and other countries' opinions, radical) and just yesterday as a matter of fact formed their own political party, which is STAUNCH nationalist and jihadist. They are somewhat popular. The Copts (Coptic Christians) face an even more uncertain future.

PeonForHer -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 12:07:03 PM)
quote: No one demands that the terrorists, tyrants, and suicide bombers think of others. I see no reason to take special consideration either. That answers the point about altruism, but it doesn't answer the point about engendering hatred and creating new terrorists. The latter is about long term self- interest. Any given president may not care greatly what might happen after his (second) term is up, but his nation is best advised to.

DaNewAgeViking -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 1:08:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro The drones are operated by the CIA not the military... And this is different...how? [sm=dunno.gif]

mnottertail -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 1:09:36 PM)
saves some typing.

kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 1:55:32 PM)
quote: The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian So you say the CIA is not an armed force? And I do not include the purposeful targeted death of a non combatant…a better word than civilian. If however militants purposely put their families at risk by hiding behind their shirts then there will be casualties among civilians and the fault is theirs not ours. There was a really good documentary on drones and the training of the pilots on PBS… you should look it up and take a view. They describe how they try to discriminate between civilians and militants… And they admit some tragic mistakes made. Butch

mnottertail -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 1:56:39 PM)
It's the fog of war, anybody who has ever bought that surgical strike bullshit, ever......

egern -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 2:56:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: egern Also, it is a matter of time before everybody else use drones - as and when they please. Law and order goes out the back way. It's also only a matter of time before the generation of kids who've seen innocent family members killed will become terrorists themselves. YES!

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 3:51:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 May I point out that "collateral damage and casualties" have been an acceptable part of modern warfare? Actually, British bombing in WW2 has been a bone of contention here ever since. Arguments still rage about the lack of medals given to bomber aircrew. I think it's fair to say that the UK has never looked back at bombing policy then with unalloyed pride. But such nearly-indiscriminate bombing was accepted, if not entirely condoned, during WW2 in a way that can't be the case in e.g. Afghanistan - not least because such conflicts aren't supposed to be between two entire nations. The average German citizen was much more of an inherently 'guilty party' in British eyes during WW2. That's not supposed to be true of the average Afghan. Indeed, not viewed with pride, but viewed here with an acceptance it was needed. Lots not forget indiscriminate killings have long been a tactic in war. Many forget there have been many cases of conventional shelling of towns and burning of cities. There were also regular bombing attacks on British cities during WW1

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 3:55:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters. The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties. Butch The drones are operated by the CIA not the military, do you include the death of civilian? http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/11/02/counting_civilian_casualties_in_cia_s_drone_war Incredible to think the CIA is not part of your military. Rumsfeld used them for exactly that purpose in the invasion of Afghanistan.

Real0ne -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:02:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies. There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt. Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ? When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ? drones on the home turf? that could get very interesting indeed

Nosathro -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:06:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro The drones are operated by the CIA not the military... And this is different...how? [sm=dunno.gif] There a lot of lot, the CIA is secertive. The military is governed by in part International Law, specifically the Genva Convention, as well as Constitutional law and Federal Law, the CIA is not. Further as it applies to the use of predator drones in use of against US citizens CIA by it charter is not permited to conduct excutions, the ACLU has brought this point in it ongoing court case. This may seem inmaterial to some but it does add to the arguement against using drones to kill US citizens.

Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:09:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies. There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt. Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ? When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ? Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft? And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back?

Aylee -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:21:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: No one demands that the terrorists, tyrants, and suicide bombers think of others. I see no reason to take special consideration either. That answers the point about altruism, but it doesn't answer the point about engendering hatred and creating new terrorists. This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists. quote: The latter is about long term self- interest. Any given president may not care greatly what might happen after his (second) term is up, but his nation is best advised to. Consider this: being able to get up on your roof with a rifle to drive off rampaging hordes of barbarians (whether Avars, Huns, Viking raiders, or rioters) is liberty. Having to do so because the barbarian hordes are endemic to your situation, is not. So the barbarians have to be driven off or kept suppressed, which requires organization with the sanction to use force (since the barbarians, pretty much by definition, aren't going to respond to sweet reason. If they did, they wouldn't be barbarians). Or do you really believe that sweet reason and a pretty please is going to work?

Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:29:23 PM)
We should promote an affective defense and dissuade things,anything, that promote terrorism......no matter who`s feelings get hurt.

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:32:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists. I doubt if cartoons or comics have added one new terrorist, drones hitting the wrong targets and killing civillians certainly have. You are right, pretty please will not work, but nor will the continued collateral deaths.

Nosathro -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:44:42 PM)
I am finding it disturbing here..on othe issues, one in particular many claim the it is their rights, and the right of the people shall not be infringed upon etc, etc, etc. Yet it seem to me that many feel that so what is drones kill terrorists...two of the these terrorist were natural born US citizens, they had the same rights as everyone else, one is the right to trial. Now we are reading where more US citizens possibly on US soil, being excuted buy these drones, on the order of a faceless government bureacrat who answer to know one, deciding who is a terrorist and who dies. Regardless of what someone may have done as a US Citizen they do have a right to trial. There also seems to be a view that some people are less then human..further justifing the actions barbarian bar·bar·i·an Noun (in ancient times) A member of a community or tribe not belonging to one of the great civilizations (Greek, Roman, Christian).

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