RE: Collateral murder

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Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 5:45:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Kudo to you Switcheroo. This is probably the most pertinent post I have seen on here regards the "War on Terror". You knowledge is greater than mine, as is evident from your posts. Much of the crap I read on here about "Evil Muslims" is clearly based on a lack of understanding and constant diet of bullshit perpetuated by Western Governments. One example would be the need to explain to the US President, a week before the Iraq invasion, the difference between Shia and Sunni. Who knows if he ever got that, or indeed the concept of Pashtunwali. My awareness of the situation stems from being raised around and by immigrants from the region, being raised in and around Islam, and getting my news from a more knowledgeable source on the situation (usually al-Jazeera, which is surprisingly, for some at least, very impartial and non-biased). The two biggest reasons by far the US government and US in general is loathed and distrusted in the region are; a) support for Israel, b) support for the House of Saud, mixed with the US governmental line of "freedom for all" yet supporting those nations/regimes, ESPECIALLY a regime as oppressive and illegal as the KSA (Saudi Arabia). The reasons why the House of Saud are so despised are numerous and pertinent. If you are interested (or anyone reading this is) send me a PM. I say do it in PM as I don't want to keep derailing the thread, don't want our posts on the subject hijacked, and you will likely have many questions. The President likely did not get that info. Had he, Kurdistan would have been handled much differently from Northern Iraq. Here in the US we are given crap info a lot, we are. Years back the government tried to concoct some story about Hezbollah and al-Qaeda forming an alliance. Lol! Shia and Wahabi aren't on speaking terms, so the idea of militant Shia and militant Wahabi forming an alliance was laughable and insulting to intelligence. The US government missed a golden opportunity with Hezbollah. They are violently anti-al-Qaeda, and have fought them in the past (as they did in Iraq), and Hezbollah is not anti USA or anti-West. I try to stay out of such topics, but it's hard. I can get worked up, I did earlier. I don't have an issue apologizing for my actions, I have an issue with me getting to that arena in the first place. I do get frustrated when I see blanket statements tossed around a non-blanket issue. People who think the region is black and white need to ask themselves why a Socialist like Jumblatt can be one of the harshest and vehemently opposed critics of Hezbollah yet remain one of Nasrallah's closest allies.

egern -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 5:54:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters. The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties. Butch Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters? Aren't all innocent children 'ours'? Or is it only Americam children that count?

egern -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 6:01:46 AM)
The miitary is governed by in part International Law, specifically the Genva Convention, as well as Constitutional law and Federal Law, the CIA is not. Further as it applies to the use of predator drones in use of against US citizens CIA by it charter is not permited to conduct excutions, the ACLU has brought this point in it ongoing court case. This may seem inmaterial to some but it does add to the arguement against using drones to kill US citizens. Bingo! Unlawful killing is murder.

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 6:25:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle War is a messy business. People get hurt. No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies. That effort has been successful beyond the wildest dreams of commanders even twenty years ago, despite the fact that our enemies do hide in the midst of those innocent people. They try to insure that if we strike them, those innocents will also be killed, as they see it, the more, the better. For that, many of our own people call us "evil" and all such collateral damage "murder." Our enemies, on the other hand make no distinction between innocent civilians and military, intelligence and economic targets. They shoot young girls in the head for speaking out in favor of the education of girls. They murder women for showing their faces in public. They murder rape victims for "dishonoring" their families. They blow up airplanes full of civilians or hijack them to fly them into buildings full of other civilians. Yet, the OP considers only those innocents who are killed despite our best efforts to have been "murdered." A classic example of the type of person whom the murdering thug Lenin referred to as, "useful idiots." No country has gone further since 9/11 than the US in its disregard for collateral murder in its pursuit of hegemony through a so-called, invented 'war on terror' and actual preemptive, ground wars and killing whoever [it] itself decides...who needs to die.

imdoingitagain -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 6:29:52 AM)
The funniest part of this discussion: If all of this was happening about five or six years ago, I am willing to bet that 99% of you would be on the direct opposite side of the argument than you are now.. Just remember, you can't get mad at the current administration for pulling the same bullshit that the last one did which you defended. Nor can you defend the current administration for doing the same shit that the last one did which you were vehemently opposed to. That, my friends, is called "hypocrisy."

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 7:01:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies. There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt. Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ? When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ? Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft? And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back? Up until Iraq...our entire history especially when it comes to actually going to war. American leaders lied through their teeth to justify a very specious UN resolution to attack a sovereign country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat to the US. The possible exception of Vietnam and its very convenient 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which was also an outright lie, left 55,000 Americans and countless millions of children and innocents dead because of it. The CIA even took out the S. Vietnamese govt. to accommodate US war-making ends. From the CIA 1952 coup in Iran on...the US decided who must go and didn't give a damn who had to die to achieve [their] ends. Never before has the US declared as it were, we were at war against a tactic involving anybody we say it does and anywhere in the world we say it is and using now weapons even of remote control to meet those ends. All drones do is 'clean it up a bit. Notice how the American media accommodates those ends by not showing the killing and real damage our warmongering is doing in the middle east ?

mnottertail -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 7:47:23 AM)
quote: ...two of the these terrorist were natural born US citizens, they had the same rights as everyone else, one is the right to trial nope, that ship sailed long ago, 107-40 and Hamdi.

kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 7:57:30 AM)
quote: Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters? Aren't all innocent children 'ours'? Or is it only Americam children that count Who are the ordinary people?... You mean those who are flying planes full of women and children into buildings... or the ones cutting peoples heads off? In war we try to limit deaths of non-combatants... do the Taliban?.... do the Mumbai killers?.... do the subway bombers?...do the Beslan school killers? do the market bombers in Iraq?... do we shoot little girls in the head for going to school?... do we throw acid in their faces?...do I really need to go on? Yes all children are innocents... now if you and others could just realize who the real killers of children are in this world and do your part to stop them.

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:03:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: imdoingitagain The funniest part of this discussion: If all of this was happening about five or six years ago, I am willing to bet that 99% of you would be on the direct opposite side of the argument than you are now.. Just remember, you can't get mad at the current administration for pulling the same bullshit that the last one did which you defended. Nor can you defend the current administration for doing the same shit that the last one did which you were vehemently opposed to. That, my friends, is called "hypocrisy." Many on here, on both sides of the argument, have been remarkably consistent as far as I can tell. the majority of the stuff thrown at Bush and Blair was to do with the invasion of Iraq. Many of the same people who were against that were okay with going after AQ no matter where they were to be found.

mnottertail -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:16:40 AM)
Yup. Polite. Since aQ was the big problem, albeit one of our own making, courtesy of St. Wrinklemeat. Iraq wasnt shit in the scheme of things. And we could have forgone alot of shit in Afghanistan and went hunting directly into Pakistan, which I have never figured out, cuz it was one of the worst kept secrets in the world thats where the problem children are hanging out.

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:17:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters? Aren't all innocent children 'ours'? Or is it only Americam children that count Who are the ordinary people?... You mean those who are flying planes full of women and children into buildings... or the ones cutting peoples heads off? In war we try to limit deaths of non-combatants... do the Taliban?.... do the Mumbai killers?.... do the subway bombers?...do the Beslan school killers? do the market bombers in Iraq?... do we shoot little girls in the head for going to school?... do we throw acid in their faces?...do I really need to go on? Yes all children are innocents... now if you and others could just realize who the real killers of children are in this world and do your part to stop them. Butch You don't seem to get it, to call this a 'war' is the Orwellian changing of the meaning of words. You allow the govt. this freedom then [it] can take 'war' anywhere [it] wants having convinced you, the public that these are not crimes to be investigated complete with evidence and suspects. With this thinking, the govt. is now free to create its own enemy combatants and terrorists to escape the need for habeus corpus and due process. Soon will war be peace. We'll all be safe then hey.

kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:26:54 AM)
You are right of course... this is not a war at all...just a bunch of gun crazy killer American rednecks running around killing children for kicks.. Glad you straightened me out….thanks for your insight. By the way do you have a another membership application for AE911Truth? Butch

Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:27:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters. The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties. Butch Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters? Aren't all innocent children 'ours'? Or is it only Americam children that count? Sorry buddy but they are NOT equivalent. The "American" we killed was plotting against us. This is a shooting war and he got shot.ANYONE around him is fair game whether they`re con-combatants or not. If the peacenicks can come up with a more affective way to limit collateral deaths then step up and tell us.

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 8:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: imdoingitagain The funniest part of this discussion: If all of this was happening about five or six years ago, I am willing to bet that 99% of you would be on the direct opposite side of the argument than you are now.. Just remember, you can't get mad at the current administration for pulling the same bullshit that the last one did which you defended. Nor can you defend the current administration for doing the same shit that the last one did which you were vehemently opposed to. That, my friends, is called "hypocrisy." You'd lose that bet. Most of the country was dead set against any war with Iraq until Powell, claiming later he was duped, went before the UN and told it of an alleged plot of Saddam's to acquire 'yellow cake' (material necessary) for nukes. Obama doesn't need to lie, just do what he needs to do...to stay alive. Most of the American people are thus...not hypocrites. Far too many are just stupid lemmings.

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 1:35:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You are right of course... this is not a war at all...just a bunch of gun crazy killer American rednecks running around killing children for kicks.. Glad you straightened me out….thanks for your insight. By the way do you have a another membership application for AE911Truth? Butch 9/11 truth is the last thing on Americans' minds, the govt. always tells them the truth. I mean look at all of that expert crime scene evidence, the trials and proof that it was something called Al...whatever. What one has to do with the other would be obvious if the American people really cared but they are too busy being the world's new belligerent power...calling what wish a war and taking it wherever [it] wishes and calling people guilty as enemy combatants and terrorists when it suits its war aims.

MrRodgers -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 1:48:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern The miitary is governed by in part International Law, specifically the Genva Convention, as well as Constitutional law and Federal Law, the CIA is not. Further as it applies to the use of predator drones in use of against US citizens CIA by it charter is not permited to conduct excutions, the ACLU has brought this point in it ongoing court case. This may seem inmaterial to some but it does add to the arguement against using drones to kill US citizens. Bingo! Unlawful killing is murder. You are correct of course but far too many Americans aren't interested anymore in the niceties of rights that were once upon a time...endowed not by govt. but by our creator. We were told those rights were self-evident, inalienable and govt. was formed to protect them. Not anymore. Seems even being an American doesn't matter let alone being created. The rights of the people are now subject to a govt's. assessment of your guilt and what you may be planning or conspiring to do and even if the govt. decides for itself, even creating the conspiracy. The CIA and to a large extent, the military...do whatever they want and if you don't agree just as in history's previous fascist societies...you are a traitor and maybe even an enemy combatant or a terrorist.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 6:25:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle Indeed it will help a lot. Just as in all the other recent Arab revolutions, the House of Saud is sure to be replaced a government of people who love us and then we can all sit around singing "Kumbaya." They don't have to love the US, sir. They don't. Try to understand why they are so hated. I'm no "sir." I have no problem understanding why they're hated. My problem is with the thinking that their overthrow will make things so much better. The replacement of the House of Saud with a Wahabist Islamic Republic is no improvement from where I'm sitting. Granted, they're not likely to fall in love with the Shiite Islamic Republic across the Gulf from them, but that's likely to be small consolation.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 6:41:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies. Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And in the US/Brit case, Dresden? That seems a pretty bold statement! Are you forgetting Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Coventry and Auschwitz, amongst thousands of other crimes? A war that ended over 67 years ago is utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand. Is your case "proving" how evil the United States is so utterly bankrupt that you need to haul in decisions that were made by people who have been dead for decades, that were made before the vast majority of today's decision makers were even born? Those decisions were made ten years before I was born and I'm so old I knew dirt when it was still rock. Revisionist history, I should think, would properly be "discussed" (aka ranted about) in a different thread.

Owner59 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/9/2013 12:11:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies. There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt. Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ? When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ? Somehow you`d feel better if they were manned aircraft? And when did we wait for someone attacking us to be prosecuted before we fired back? Up until Iraq...our entire history especially when it comes to actually going to war. American leaders lied through their teeth to justify a very specious UN resolution to attack a sovereign country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and was not a threat to the US. The possible exception of Vietnam and its very convenient 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which was also an outright lie, left 55,000 Americans and countless millions of children and innocents dead because of it. The CIA even took out the S. Vietnamese govt. to accommodate US war-making ends. From the CIA 1952 coup in Iran on...the US decided who must go and didn't give a damn who had to die to achieve [their] ends. Never before has the US declared as it were, we were at war against a tactic involving anybody we say it does and anywhere in the world we say it is and using now weapons even of remote control to meet those ends. All drones do is 'clean it up a bit. Notice how the American media accommodates those ends by not showing the killing and real damage our warmongering is doing in the middle east ? I couldn`t agree more. But there`s no difference between killing an enemy with a manned air craft than with an unmaned one. Either could be abused or mis-used...of that there`s no doubt.Again....no difference between the two. Until we have examples of mis-use(and collateral deaths are NOT mis-use,IMHO)....we really can`t discuss this topic anything but hypothetical. That said,should we outlaw the use of jet fighters because hypothetically,one day they could be mis-used on Americans? No....we shouldn`t b/c that`s ridiculous. Should we be careful...hell yes. Could we make it better.....we damm better if we can.A new "panel" to vet the suspects would probably be agreeable to the admin.I trust that they can make a case for each and every target. The fact is that one pilot or crew making an assessment is far more likely to make mistakes than the multi-layered command structure that controls the drone from the real-time intel people to the three or four officers that have to sign off on a weapons launch.

egern -> RE: Collateral murder (2/10/2013 8:23:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Why are 'our' sons and daughters more important than other ordinary peopele's sons and daughters? Aren't all innocent children 'ours'? Or is it only Americam children that count Who are the ordinary people?... You mean those who are flying planes full of women and children into buildings... or the ones cutting peoples heads off? I have a hard time imagining small children doing this.. quote: In war we try to limit deaths of non-combatants... do the Taliban?.... do the Mumbai killers?.... do the subway bombers?...do the Beslan school killers? do the market bombers in Iraq?... do we shoot little girls in the head for going to school?... do we throw acid in their faces?...do I really need to go on? So, therefore it is ok for Americans to kill innocents - just as they do?????? quote: Yes all children are innocents... now if you and others could just realize who the real killers of children are in this world and do your part to stop them. I have trouble distinguishing between one set of killers of children and another - they look just as dead to me. Have you ever seen the result of a drone attack? It looks exactly like a terrorist attack - and that is because it is.

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