RE: Collateral murder

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Nosathro -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro I am finding it disturbing here..on othe issues, one in particular many claim the it is their rights, and the right of the people shall not be infringed upon etc, etc, etc. Yet it seem to me that many feel that so what is drones kill terrorists...two of the these terrorist were natural born US citizens, they had the same rights as everyone else, one is the right to trial. Now we are reading where more US citizens possibly on US soil, being excuted buy these drones, on the order of a faceless government bureacrat who answer to know one, deciding who is a terrorist and who dies. Regardless of what someone may have done as a US Citizen they do have a right to trial. There also seems to be a view that some people are less then human..further justifing the actions barbarian bar·bar·i·an Noun (in ancient times) A member of a community or tribe not belonging to one of the great civilizations (Greek, Roman, Christian). Also they were not called Vikings...they called themselves Vestors, the Europeans called them Norsemen. Viking is what they did.

Aylee -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists. I doubt if cartoons or comics have added one new terrorist, drones hitting the wrong targets and killing civillians certainly have. Ah, so it was not actually the cartoons or comics that caused deaths and threats. They were just a convenient excuse. These folks could stop the drone attacks right NOW. All they have to do is take out their own trash. How many terrorists do these countries export? How many does the US? Yep, that is where the difference is. The US does its best not to let these people free on the rest of the world. quote: You are right, pretty please will not work, but nor will the continued collateral deaths. What do you think will work with a culture willing to embrace violence against the innocent for any made up excuse?

Aylee -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:53:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro I am finding it disturbing here..on othe issues, one in particular many claim the it is their rights, and the right of the people shall not be infringed upon etc, etc, etc. Yet it seem to me that many feel that so what is drones kill terrorists...two of the these terrorist were natural born US citizens, they had the same rights as everyone else, one is the right to trial. Now we are reading where more US citizens possibly on US soil, being excuted buy these drones, on the order of a faceless government bureacrat who answer to know one, deciding who is a terrorist and who dies. Regardless of what someone may have done as a US Citizen they do have a right to trial. There also seems to be a view that some people are less then human..further justifing the actions barbarian bar·bar·i·an Noun (in ancient times) A member of a community or tribe not belonging to one of the great civilizations (Greek, Roman, Christian). Your definition. Where does it say, "less than human"? And yes, I would say that those who would throw lye in the faces of school girls OR shoot them in the head are NOT civilized.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 4:59:26 PM)
War is a messy business. People get hurt. No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies. That effort has been successful beyond the wildest dreams of commanders even twenty years ago, despite the fact that our enemies do hide in the midst of those innocent people. They try to insure that if we strike them, those innocents will also be killed, as they see it, the more, the better. For that, many of our own people call us "evil" and all such collateral damage "murder." Our enemies, on the other hand make no distinction between innocent civilians and military, intelligence and economic targets. They shoot young girls in the head for speaking out in favor of the education of girls. They murder women for showing their faces in public. They murder rape victims for "dishonoring" their families. They blow up airplanes full of civilians or hijack them to fly them into buildings full of other civilians. Yet, the OP considers only those innocents who are killed despite our best efforts to have been "murdered." A classic example of the type of person whom the murdering thug Lenin referred to as, "useful idiots."

epiphiny43 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:15:38 PM)
Traditional concepts of war and rules on use of deadly force are becoming obsolete in the face of the declared war on a largely democratic civilization and many of it's governments by a NGO (Al Qaeda and friends) that sits outside all previous military and civil structures. It won't be soon for clarity to return to how modern societies defend their very existance against those who feel any measure is warranted to eliminate the 'evil' of apostasy and non-belief, as they define it. It will help when the Saudi Royal family stops buying local calm by supporting radical Islamists. The mess we see is small compared to the internal war withing Islam and it's many peoples and sects. Those on 'our' side are largely those who follow the real precepts of Islam and are loving and peaceful. They are a bit over-matched by the heavily armed and morally destitute radicals?

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:24:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee This would hold more water if things like cartoons and comics did not create new terrorists. I doubt if cartoons or comics have added one new terrorist, drones hitting the wrong targets and killing civillians certainly have. Ah, so it was not actually the cartoons or comics that caused deaths and threats. They were just a convenient excuse. These folks could stop the drone attacks right NOW. All they have to do is take out their own trash. How many terrorists do these countries export? How many does the US? Yep, that is where the difference is. The US does its best not to let these people free on the rest of the world. quote: You are right, pretty please will not work, but nor will the continued collateral deaths. What do you think will work with a culture willing to embrace violence against the innocent for any made up excuse? If you had read my posts you would have seen what I said. Taking out terrorists, any terrorist, by drones is okay. BUT you have to ensure you get the right target. Lets talk about the attacks caused by cartoons though. The bombing of the Danish Embassy in Islamabad was carried out in response to Denmarks support for the US, not because of the cartoons. The attack on the Danish newspaper building was carried out by Islamists who already had links to terrorist groups Laughable how you suggest "these people could take out their own trash" it shows a complete lack of understanding of the culture in some countries, let alone the ethinic, tribal and religious make up. But anyhow, as you said to me when I suggest the awful Benghazi killings were a response to the film "Well fuck that shit and your cowardly, craven, appeasement attitude.".... I smell hypocrisy.

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:44:38 PM)
A lot will help when the House of Saud is deposed. They are absolutely fucking despised, both in the region and abroad, for numerous, numerous reasons. As to the cartoons, I believe we are talking about the ones featuring Mohammed (PBUH)? There was no reason for rioting over that. That was so trivial. Much of the rioting was done out of two things; misguided zealotry (always a good thing, right?), and sheer ignorance/lack of decent education. Yes, in Islam, Mohammed's (PBUH) face should be obscured by holy light, but it is not haraam (a sin/sinful) to not do so. The Ottoman Turks rarely, if ever, obscured his face in murals and artwork. The same people who took to the street over Mohammed's (PBUH) face not being obscured also didn't realize that Jesus (PBUH) should have his face obscured by holy light, too. For the record, the cartoons did not offend me, and many other Muslims and Islamics (Druze, Bahai, ect) did not take offense. It was the Danish man's RIGHT to freedom of speech to draw such cartoons. He exercised that right. Part of freedom of speech is that you don't always hear/see what you want to hear and see. Anyway, just my 2 cents and personal feelings.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 A lot will help when the House of Saud is deposed. They are absolutely fucking despised, both in the region and abroad, for numerous, numerous reasons. Indeed it will help a lot. Just as in all the other recent Arab revolutions, the House of Saud is sure to be replaced a government of people who love us and then we can all sit around singing "Kumbaya."

tj444 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:52:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ? well,.. that should be happening pretty soon.. The controversy escalated this week after a white paper outlining the administration's legal rationale for targeting Americans in drone attacks* was leaked by NBC News.* http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/02/obama-explains-when-its-okay-to-kill-americans.html Really, why should ya'll be surprised?? [8\|]

Nosathro -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 5:58:10 PM)
ORIGINAL: Aylee barbarians, pretty much by definition, aren't going to respond to sweet reason I was responding to you definition.

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 6:01:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle Indeed it will help a lot. Just as in all the other recent Arab revolutions, the House of Saud is sure to be replaced a government of people who love us and then we can all sit around singing "Kumbaya." They don't have to love the US, sir. They don't. Try to understand why they are so hated.

PeonForHer -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 7:33:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies. Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And in the US/Brit case, Dresden? That seems a pretty bold statement!

kdsub -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 8:58:25 PM)
quote: Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki Yes I see where those tragedies saved lives. Truman was told could be a million US casualties matching another million Japanese military casualties and untold millions of civilian casualties to invade Japan...It was a tough decision that weighed on his conscience the rest of his life. WWII was different kind of all out war all sides bombed civilians and if we have an all out war with Iran or Korea there will be many more civilians killed then the kind of war we are fighting today. You and the op seem to be only able to see in black and white in a gray world. You have no idea of the circumstances around the accidental killing of civilians but that never stops your sanctimonious hate. These are good American boys and girls fighting this war…not murderers…Mistakes were made and except for the insane actions of one soldier we do, as a nation and a military, try to limit civilian casualties. Can this be said for our enemies? Butch

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 9:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki Yes I see where those tragedies saved lives. Truman was told could be a million US casualties matching another million Japanese military casualties and untold millions of civilian casualties to invade Japan...It was a tough decision that weighed on his conscience the rest of his life.. I'll see if I can find a link/page online here, but it was estimated upwards of 1 million US servicemen (as the US was essentially going alone, Churchill had been voted out of power and replaced by Attlee at this point), but the estimated figure for Japanese casualties was intense, anywhere from 12-17% of the entire population, soldier and civilian. I have the figure from my "Time Life" collection of books (great collection and series, btw), but I'll see what I can find online.

Switcheroo1983 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/7/2013 9:16:23 PM)
kdsub - Can't find the article from the book online. I'll see if I can head to my friend's house tomorrow and use his scanner. Until then, here are some links, as promised. http://www.afa.org/media/enolagay/sson3.asp - places the number of Japanese deaths as high as 10 million. http://www.kilroywashere.org/006-Pages/Invasion.html - Just a really well written page on numbers and the actual plans for the invasion of Japan, in case you and others are interested.

PeonForHer -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 2:50:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You and the op seem to be only able to see in black and white in a gray world. You have no idea of the circumstances around the accidental killing of civilians but that never stops your sanctimonious hate. Give it a rest, Butch. There's a yawning chasm between my critical outlook and 'sanctimonious hatred'. And I am certainly not the one here missing the shades of gray and seeing only black and white. The comments I've made have focused on what I've seen as the lack of American self interest - where I've not been criticising the USA and the UK (I notice that you were careful to slice that last out of your cite).

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 2:57:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle War is a messy business. People get hurt. No great power in all of human history has gone to greater effort to avoid collateral damage while killing its enemies than the United States and its allies. That effort has been successful beyond the wildest dreams of commanders even twenty years ago, despite the fact that our enemies do hide in the midst of those innocent people. They try to insure that if we strike them, those innocents will also be killed, as they see it, the more, the better. For that, many of our own people call us "evil" and all such collateral damage "murder." Our enemies, on the other hand make no distinction between innocent civilians and military, intelligence and economic targets. They shoot young girls in the head for speaking out in favor of the education of girls. They murder women for showing their faces in public. They murder rape victims for "dishonoring" their families. They blow up airplanes full of civilians or hijack them to fly them into buildings full of other civilians. Yet, the OP considers only those innocents who are killed despite our best efforts to have been "murdered." A classic example of the type of person whom the murdering thug Lenin referred to as, "useful idiots." Nice post except for the last part. Would you call the drone attack on Al Alwakis 16 year old son, while out eating with friends, anything less than murder ? The only excuse, and I am unwilling to even give it that much credence, is the kid died for the sins of his father.

DomKen -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 3:02:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Hell's bells, Harry, are you forgetting Hiroshima and Nagasaki Yes I see where those tragedies saved lives. Truman was told could be a million US casualties matching another million Japanese military casualties and untold millions of civilian casualties to invade Japan...It was a tough decision that weighed on his conscience the rest of his life.. I'll see if I can find a link/page online here, but it was estimated upwards of 1 million US servicemen (as the US was essentially going alone, Churchill had been voted out of power and replaced by Attlee at this point), but the estimated figure for Japanese casualties was intense, anywhere from 12-17% of the entire population, soldier and civilian. I have the figure from my "Time Life" collection of books (great collection and series, btw), but I'll see what I can find online. That sounds like the estimate provided to Truman by the US Army. It was based on the Okinawa campaign where the civilian death toll was comparable to those numbers.

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 3:02:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub These are good American boys and girls fighting this war…not murderers…Mistakes were made and except for the insane actions of one soldier we do, as a nation and a military, try to limit civilian casualties. Can this be said for our enemies? Butch Here is your problem Butch. Sadly a very small minority of those good American boys have indeed been found to be murderous thugs, think of the trophy killings or the early pictutres of Blackwater thugs taking pot shots at anything and everything. Edited for spelling.

Politesub53 -> RE: Collateral murder (2/8/2013 3:20:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983 They don't have to love the US, sir. They don't. Try to understand why they are so hated. Kudo to you Switcheroo. This is probably the most pertinent post I have seen on here regards the "War on Terror". You knowledge is greater than mine, as is evident from your posts. Much of the crap I read on here about "Evil Muslims" is clearly based on a lack of understanding and constant diet of bullshit perpetuated by Western Governments. One example would be the need to explain to the US President, a week before the Iraq invasion, the difference between Shia and Sunni. Who knows if he ever got that, or indeed the concept of Pashtunwali.

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