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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 9:47:49 AM   
tommonymous


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2
I carry a 5 pound solid iron hammer with a sharp pointed end.
Just in case.


You may want to check into concealed weapons laws/ weapons carry laws for your state and local jurisdictions. You may be committing/ walking the fine line of a felony every time you leave the house with that thing.

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And just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will (or ought to) work for everyone.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 10:14:32 AM   
DaddySatyr


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I'm kind of bummed to see that Rottweillers are as aggressive as pitbulls. I knew there was some aggressive tendencies but I had been led to believe that the issue was due to them being too closely bred (on purpose, for the expressed purpose of making them aggressive) and I have found a breeder that seems to put a lot of effort into making sure that the genetics are spread out with his dogs.

I've wanted to get a Rottweiller for some time and was thinking about "pulling the trigger" within the next year or so but, I am starting to re-think that course of action.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 10:58:51 AM   
jlf1961


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Any dog's aggressiveness is dependent on how they are raised, socialized and interacted with. Of course, no one takes that into consideration, they just point at the breed and proclaim the general statement "They are dangerous."

Add to that you have people that just turn a dog loose because they get tired of it, then they become feral, and survival kicks in.

And if you look at the list I posted concerning Breed Specific Laws in the US, you would note that most of those dogs are so called "gentle breeds" yet some group decided they are dangerous.

The American pit bull and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England were originally bred as fighting dogs, I will admit that. There are other breeds that were originally bred as war dogs in the middle ages, and they still have those instincts, albeit not as dominant as they once were, but still there.

The difference between the war dogs and the Pit Bull and Staffordshire Bull Terrier is that the war dogs have had more generations of breeding to actually lessen the aggressive qualities in them. There are pit and bull terrier breeders working to bred gentler dogs, just as there are some still trying to preserve that fighting nature in the breeds, then there are those people who haphazardly breed pits and bull terriers with no thought as to the type of dogs they are developing, looking only to making money on a registered pup, the so called puppy mills.

Now, we add this fact, any dog trainer will tell you that the "working" breeds need a lot of exercise and interaction to keep them from becoming aggressive. They will also tell you that dogs are social animals, and need to be socialized and taught what is acceptable and non acceptable behavior, beyond house breaking them.

I presently own a wonderful Timber wolf/ Siberian Husky hybrid. A type of dog that is considered "Dangerous." She is over protective of my grand nephew, to the point of deciding who can and cannot pick the child up. If she does not know the person, or know the person well, she will block any attempt by that person to pick Damian up, doing everything short of biting.

The only time she has bitten someone is when my nephew got into a fight with my niece's boyfriend, and she went after the aggressor, which happened to be my nephew. As soon as he through the first punch, she was on him. Before the first punch was thrown, she was already between the two. There was an incident where we were locked out of the house and she got very aggressive with my niece's boyfriend when he went in through a window, but backed off when she realized who it was.

The only pit type dog I had that turned aggressive was a pit/lab mix that turned aggressive with other dogs after he was attacked through a fence by another dog.

My other pits were all tongue and no bite when it came to people, one even allowed my house to be broken into, and then proceeded to demand to play with the stranger, which the police thought was funny when I got home and found the burglar in my home.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 11:06:25 AM   
Spiritedsub2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tommonymous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2
I carry a 5 pound solid iron hammer with a sharp pointed end.
Just in case.


You may want to check into concealed weapons laws/ weapons carry laws for your state and local jurisdictions. You may be committing/ walking the fine line of a felony every time you leave the house with that thing.


I don't conceal it. Ergo, no felony.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 11:34:05 AM   
tommonymous


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2


I don't conceal it. Ergo, no felony.



Speaking generally, this is absolutely not true. Obviously I don't know your local laws, and "carry of a weapon is okay as long as there is no concealment" may be how they are written where you live. I just don't want anyone else to read this and get the impression that they're okay to carry whatever as long as they do it openly.

_____________________________

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And just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will (or ought to) work for everyone.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 11:36:11 AM   
jlf1961


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It’s Not How They’re Raised, It’s How Dogs are Managed That Matters Most

I found this interesting, makes sense as well

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:09:17 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Yes, the writer does raise valid points, however, "managing" is a part of raising.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:13:21 PM   
theRose4U


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

The only time I was ever hurt by a pitt was bruises on my calf from being lashed by the tail of one as I scratched his ears. That damn tail is like a bullwhip.

Common injury rarely documented by police.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:16:35 PM   
theRose4U


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I've only known one pit. She wasn't a bad dog but had incredible amounts of energy. Worse than a six month old lab and that's saying something. And not a good choice for a house with then small kids.

Lived in a house where 2 & 4 raced the pits like thorobreds. Worst that ever happened was dog threw on brakes to make corner on stairs & lil one got tossed

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:21:07 PM   
theRose4U


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This study has been proven time & again to be COMPLETE CRAP!! No data ihas ever been provided to verify even one claim. Sadly its the "study" commonly used for hate legislation. Hate the deed not the breed. New study published in 2010 actually found Lab & chihuahua to be most common biters.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

I hate to blame a breed, but the stats are pretty proven. This is from a 30 year study jlf, unlike your with a small sampling of 1000 dogs. Pit bulls are in fact far more violent...I mean really do you see drug dealers out walking labradors? Right. There is a reason they are chosen by those types of people, for nefarious reasons. I feel badly for them, and working in the shelter, I have met some beautiful ones, but even the ones with the seemingly moderate temperament, I don't ever ever take home and foster for a weekend like I do with almost any of the other dogs, because I have seen how unpredictable they are around smaller animals at times and certain strangers will trigger them to, for example males, and if you don't know ahead of time it's potentially a very dangerous situation.

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-study-dog-attacks-and-maimings-merritt-clifton.php

Study highlights
The combination of large breeds, including pit bulls, rottweilers, presa canarios, cane corsos, mastiffs, dogo argentinos, fila brasieros, and their mixes:

79% of attacks that induce bodily harm
72% of attacks to children
85% of attack to adults
69% of attacks that result in fatalities
77% that result in maiming

Discussion notes:

Even if the pit bull category was "split four ways," attacks by pit bulls and their closest relatives would still outnumber attacks by any other breed.
Pit bulls are noteworthy for attacking adults almost as frequently as children. This is a very rare pattern, only seen elsewhere in the bullmastiff/presa canario line.
If a pit bull or rottweiler has a bad moment, instead of being bitten, often someone is maimed or killed; that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk.





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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:31:30 PM   
theRose4U


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I'm kind of bummed to see that Rottweillers are as aggressive as pitbulls. I knew there was some aggressive tendencies but I had been led to believe that the issue was due to them being too closely bred (on purpose, for the expressed purpose of making them aggressive) and I have found a breeder that seems to put a lot of effort into making sure that the genetics are spread out with his dogs.

I've wanted to get a Rottweiller for some time and was thinking about "pulling the trigger" within the next year or so but, I am starting to re-think that course of action.

Peace and comfort,

Michael


If every rottie was vicious I can GUARANTEE I wouldn't have been able to do half the rottie rescues I have. The most recent was badly beaten, scared out of her mind running down the center of the highway female. Took about 20 minutes for her to realize touching her wouldn't hurt, cause pain or make her life worse. I then proceeded to put her in the 2 seat miata when she acted like she'd never seen a car let alone ridden in one. A "vicious from genetics" dog wouldn't have been caught. Would have bitten at least a dozen times & taken my face off instead of licking me then leaning in with a sigh of "finally m safe". She now lives in with rich people & all the kibble she can stand.
Yepp vicious bully breed licked my face, took my treats then my heart.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 3:49:59 PM   
tommonymous


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U


Yepp vicious bully breed licked my face, took my treats then my heart.


Jeez, sounds like you gotta work on keeping your guard up more.

I miss having dogs around...

_____________________________

"Remember kids. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all." --Hillwilliam

And just because it worked for you, doesn't mean it will (or ought to) work for everyone.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 4:03:37 PM   
epiphiny43


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Interesting 'study'. Last time I looked German Shepherds led the list of actual injury bites. That was from police reports. Suddenly the media is an unassailable source of reality? REALLY? Anyone here actually know some news people and their editors?
Generally people who couldn't get into the Education programs in college. Not our finest intellects nor as educated as we both wish and need in the vital 5th Estate. Naturally, massive exceptions exist but what front page editor won't run a Dog Maims Human story before all the facts are in, if they are even knowable?
The real point is that dogs and particularly large dogs suffer from the same problems that end up being blamed on guns, 'other people's kids' and the ballot box. Lots of supposedly rational adults don't have the brains God gave seafood. It's the PEOPLE, not the breed. There are individual dogs that either have dysfunctional genetics or were irretrievably damaged during puppyhood and development. But few.
I rescue parrots that are even more subject to imprinting and early life patterning than dogs. Most recover and learn trust if handled well. A few simply won't get over the fears and panic that are the real cause of most aggression. (My violently bi-polar Sulfur Crest Will get me someday when my guard is down or I'm distracted.) Almost any damaged or highly energetic animal requires Time and Attention to be properly socialized. Far too many owners expect buying a breed gets them in free with the supposed characteristics. See above about people dumber than bait?

I live in a hotbed of pit ownership. Most are fine dogs. But DO NOT threaten their 'family'! Just as with any dog that is attached to it's humans. The Chows and other lap dogs are far more aggressive, just easier to hold off the ground so they have no traction to pursue their intent. The more aggressive Pits I know are generally overly friendly with people but want to kill anything with 4 legs they don't already know. Lack Of Socialization!
The sociopathic owners have predictably dangerous dogs. Here, Every sociopath wants a dangerous dog! It's compensation for their fears and cowardice facing assumed threats. Hopefully these dogs are more dangerous more to the owner than the public.
Knowing of owners who let their dogs off the leash to attack small pets when it seems they won't get caught, I'm in favor of 'full responsibility' laws. The dog does harm, the owner does time. And is financially responsible for predictable events. I'm not seeing that owners should suffer for vandals and idiot neighbor kids damaging gates or fences or letting dogs loose maliciously.
A friend spent an hour and more this Fall in waist deep water and crashing waves on a sharp reef to not be killed by two loose dogs. (We both know the owner.) His cell phone survived the wet just long enough to summon the police. The helicopter searching for him was in sight for half that time before they 'spotted' him. The dogs' location is known, the police say a good identification isn't possible. We wait for the headlines when they actually get someone. NOT pits!
The real problem with breed specific laws and the many media reports is that 'Pit Bulls' is an appearance, not an actual genetic lineage, with many breeds involved. Even the owner is often wrong or ignorant of the dog's true ancestry. "If it looks like a Pit, it should be put down." seems the response to the inaccuracy of terminology, lack of general dog knowledge and the deliberate mis-labeling by puppy mills and back yard breeders.
Yes, some Pits should be put down as incurably dangerous. But not before the owners who made them what they are and will repeat the process with the next puppy.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 2/14/2013 4:16:16 PM >

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 4:12:30 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

This study has been proven time & again to be COMPLETE CRAP!!



Are there any authoritative lists that don't put pit bulls at the top for dangerousness?

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 6:08:16 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

This study has been proven time & again to be COMPLETE CRAP!!



Are there any authoritative lists that don't put pit bulls at the top for dangerousness?



Actually, yes. The National Canine Research Council investigates every dog bite fatality in the country has found a few rather remarkable findings.

In most cases, where a specific breed has been identified as the attacker, and the dog has been found, it turns out the initial report is wrong, the dog was not the breed identified in the report.

Secondly, the site that everyone credits with statistics, and copies the numbers from, Dogbite.org, is run by a woman who was bit in 2007, and rather than instigate a final report, by any means, she takes the initial report as face value, and thus her statistics are skewed.

Some interesting reading can be found here if anyone cares to read the facts as posted by an unbiased source.

quote:

Breed Labeling and Dog Bites


Bite totals become even more misleading when subdivided by breed descriptors. At least half of the dogs in the United States are mixed breed dogs. It is impossible to breed label dogs of unknown history and genetics solely on the basis of their appearance.



Research conducted at two (2) universities has confirmed that attempts to identify visually the breeds in a dog of unknown origin correlate poorly with a DNA analysis of the same dog. Further, different observers, even those with considerable experience with dogs, do not agree with each other. Nevertheless, animal controls and shelter workers continue to assign single breed descriptors to dogs likely to be of mixed breed whose origins are unknown.



Even if visual breed identifications were accurate, dog bite totals still would not provide evidence that some breeds or groups of dogs bit more frequently than others. Breed populations within a given jurisdiction are not known. Therefore, incident rates cannot be calculated with any accuracy. Further, on the basis of samples obtained from veterinary clinics, animal shelters, and dog licensing, we can conclude that the popularity of types of dogs varies from place to place, and changes over time.


Another part of the same report.
quote:

There is no national system in the United States for tallying reports of dog bites. The often-repeated estimates currently cited to argue that there is still a dog bite "epidemic" derive from two telephone surveys conducted to assess a wide variety of injury risk factors and injuries. The first survey was conducted in 1994. From among the 5,328 persons who responded to this survey, interviewers obtained reports of 186 dog bites participants reported had occurred within the 12 months prior to the interview. (Only 38 of the 186 bitten sought medical attention). The second survey, conducted between July 2001 and February 2003, returned a result showing that dog bites had declined overall, and had declined significantly among children.[iv]



Adding to the confusion, none of the survey-derived estimates are consistent with concurrent reports from public health agencies across the United States. In fact, communities from coast to coast report the good, but less publicized news that contrary to the estimates, actual reports of dog bites to public agencies have decreased dramatically since the 1970’s.



Current reports obtained from public health agencies show that there is one reported dog bite for every 2,000+ New Yorkers and one for every 1,365 Chicagoans. The telephone surveys mentioned above, on the other hand, show one bite for every 68 Americans nationwide (310 million Americans divided by 4.5 million dog bites = 1 bite in every 68 people).


Since 1971, reported dog bites have dropped dramatically in select cities.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 6:18:11 PM   
PeonForHer


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Interesting. Thank you, JLF.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 6:54:36 PM   
theRose4U


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

This study has been proven time & again to be COMPLETE CRAP!!



Are there any authoritative lists that don't put pit bulls at the top for dangerousness?

article with sources discounting source for above stats from dogsbite.org
bite stats

american temperment society

center for living with animals

hell the father of BSL here in denver even admits it doesnt work
canine research coincil
canine research council
denver BSL bottom of page

< Message edited by theRose4U -- 2/14/2013 7:05:12 PM >


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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 6:59:07 PM   
jlf1961


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I have seen more aggressiveness from German Shepherds and Dobermans than pits. Of course, those breeds are still bred for aggressiveness, since they are preferred as guard dogs and police dogs.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 7:02:02 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have owned 4 pit bulls in the last 31years, and with the exception of one, none were neutered, and he was the one that turned aggressive, not towards people, but other dogs, after being attacked through a fence by another dog.

Here are some facts:




There is a saying in martialarts. There are nobad students just bad teachers.

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RE: The current canine bad guy. - 2/14/2013 7:08:37 PM   
Powergamz1


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I challenged your mathematical assertions, you cant back them up, and all the 'dick' name calling and faking victimhood in the world isn't going to make that either correct or useful.

The study is grieveously flawed, as anyone with basic reasoning skills can see, there is no controlling for critical factors (and that is after the fact that the data is garbage anyway).

But you, and you alone rushed to declare it to be 'Twoo'. You were wrong, and now you're offended at having the falsehoods debunked with reality. Too bad, enjoy your flounce.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Uh, this isn't my post, except the prelim commentary, its word for word pasted form the article, a 30 year across the board study on these breeds in the US and Canada. I take it you didn't bother to read it?

Spin what? I work in a shelter, I'm vegan, and am an avid AR activist, and the last thing I would do is spin something as tragic as this. What pisses me off is seeing more and more of these dogs brought in to be dumped because they ARE violent and aggressive and reckless owners and irresponsible breeders do nothing to help at all. Maybe that should be addressed rather than attacking facts?

ETA: You are just being a dick, what does 'saving the children' have to do with anything and where did I mention children? I don't have any and I don't even like them particularly. Has to be a reason why you are so defensive right out of the gate on this.... kind of transparent...



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