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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 3:43:28 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:


but the concept I think bears a lot of thought is that the major difference between subs and doms is in the level of "relatedness" that they share.  That they are on opposite ends of the spectrum


I couldn't disagree more! 

Relatedness is often considered a basic core psychological need.  It is comparable to what Maslow called the "Need to Belong"  In the Self-Determination theory developed by Dr Deci and Dr Ryan with alot of supportive research indentify Relatedness along with Competence and Autonomy as the three basic psychological needs one requires to be fulfilled in order for a person to reach a Balance and Functional state of existence.  In essense, the concept that Dominant are on opposite ends of the spectrum flys in the face of many respected and understood concepts of human psychology.  Dominants and submissives have an equal need to Relate to their environment and their relationships.  Neither Dominant nor Submissive will have a greater edge in establishing a stronger connection or relatedness.  The character traits such as Social Intelligence, Kindness, Compassion, Appreciation amoung others that improve the ability of a person to improve their connection and relatedness with others is not in the sole domain of either Dominant or Submissive.  In fact, I would say that you have an equal opportunity to see these various characteristics in Dominants or Submissives alike.


KnightofMists,

Possibly. 

First comment:  Don't shoot the messenger.  I tried to summarize a rather long discussion on the concept from the website I quoted.

Second comment:  I'm not sure that we are necessarily using the same definitions (or if I am even giving the "Godfathers" own definition of "relatedness").  It was however, a thought that struck me as worth thinking about.

Third comment: I will say that I've had a fair amount of "learning" in psychology, but have always been leery of the entire profession, and some of the basis of the current psychological and philosophical paradigms.  Recently, I've discovered "evolutionary psychology" and find it a much, much better fit with what I have observed in my life, and the actions of people.  So I'm re-examining all I "know" and all that has been written about people's "psychology" based the new way of looking at it.

Fourth comment: How you define "relatedness" seems to be much narrower than what I mean and filtered through current psychological thought, but I'm open to the debate.

I have no (and I doubt you have) any problems "relating" to people in a normal, conventional sense at all.  In fact, I believe doms are very GOOD relaters - in a social sense.  I can read people well.  I make a good salesman.  I make a good motivator, and a good leader.  I can feel love, hate, fear, anxiety, tiredness, joy, and all those other emotions.  But I can divorce myself from them as well.  And it does take a lot for someone to "get" to me, into my core.  Are you that much different?

To me, that is the sense of "relatedness" that I understand.

How difficult is it for you, as a dom, to get into the "core" of a submissive woman?  I bet it isn't that hard at all for you is it, if you wished?  How hard is it for a submissive woman to get into your "core"?  A lot more difficult, I'd hazard a guess.

FHky


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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 4:01:12 PM   
kiska


Posts: 160
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I'm glad that I started this thread, even if julia was the one who actually asked the original question ... Thank you for all the great replies! I hope they keep coming.

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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 4:05:44 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

How difficult is it for you, as a dom, to get into the "core" of a submissive woman?  I bet it isn't that hard at all for you is it, if you wished?  How hard is it for a submissive woman to get into your "core"?  A lot more difficult, I'd hazard a guess.



It is not a Dom thing.  My girl alandra is very quick to get into the core of person.  The getting to the core of a person has nothing to do with Dominance or Submission.  I have known more than a few Dominant that couldn't get close to a Barn if they stood in it, let alone a human being.  I have known more than a few submissives that I just couldn't get into their core. 

As far as a submissive getting into my core.  I have always been easy to learn about if a person wish to take the time to learn.  I remember time and again submissives surprized who easy it was for them to connect to me and understand me.   I remember Kyra making comment of it along time ago.  Surprize who easily she connect to me and understood who I was.  It was likely this factor for both alandra and kyra that openned them to me.  For neither kyra or alandra is easy to get to know, they have let very very few into themselves, that is the way it is for them.  However, one thing that I don't open to is my emotional love to another so easily.  In being Open that is to say that I may feel it, but I will not demonstrate it becuase it will not be in my opinion an good long-term relaitonship for me.  I learned this the hard way.... because I have opened to the wrong people.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 4:13:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		ahh ... I said it wrong in my last post. Comes from trying to post while working.

A "high relater" - a sub - CAN get in easily.  That's what they do well.

Oops. 


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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 4:21:53 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

ahh ... I said it wrong in my last post. Comes from trying to post while working.

A "high relater" - a sub - CAN get in easily.  That's what they do well.

Oops. 



it really doesn't make much difference... I have known many submissive that have extreme difficult in getting in.  The skills of Emotional intelligence is just that... a skill.  It's a skill that allows one to related and connect to others and allow these people to connect to oneself.  Like any skill it can be learned.  It is not trait or attribute that is hard wired into ones gene make up.  Be a person is Dominant in nature or Submissive.... they can learn the skills of Emotional and Social Intelligence that will allow them to relate to others in significant way.  However, the depth of such connection is always better/easier when both have these skills as compared to just one having the skill set.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 6:34:31 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Gosh I haven't thought about Godfather in years- he used to be on the Profound Submission yahoo group and we would spar all the time because he constantly kept stereotyping dominants and submissives as certain personality types.

And my thoughts are pretty much the same- his dilineations are completely stereotypes and not at all reflective of the real and vast world of personalities and relationship dynamics that occur within all orientations.

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RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 8:27:19 PM   
PookBaccus


Posts: 38
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Low self esteem has nothing to do with being submissive. If you asked 1000 submissives if they had good self esteem or poor self esteem, and  then 1000 vanilla people the same question you would find that low self esteem is a PEOPLE problem, not a submissive problem.

I wonder why people do not go to "Ask a Master" and ask them if there is some deep sense of inadequacy that causes them to want to control people? I have never seen dominants asked this question and I wonder why. I bet there are just as many low self esteem doms as there are subs.


Just because I am who I am ... I'm asking the question. Note; the question does not neccessarily have anything to do with how I feel. I'm merely asking it because, well, it begs to be asked ...

So, do any of you Masters, Mistresses, dominants and tops in general feel that there might be some deep sense of inadequacy that causes or caused you to want to control others?

(At least I remembered to ask the question!)


No MY reason for wishing to control is to give a gift. A gift as valuable as the gift of trust that I receive.

eh... thought this was going to be another 2 page post, but I guess that's it. 

(in reply to kiska)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/22/2006 8:27:38 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		many do it... unfortunately.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/23/2006 2:12:41 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		I think this topic is worth discussing in greater detail.  However, I will be ... involved for the next week or so.  I do, however, plan on resurrecting this thread if it is "dead" by that time.

FHky


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/23/2006 9:00:02 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

However, I will be ... involved for the next week or so.


Involved? *grins* I like understatement.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/23/2006 9:31:21 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear kiska, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my mind's eye, I don't sit well with using inadequacy, in total as the reason why dominants want/need to control others.  Inadequacy, which means to fall short of the mark, failure is not always the trigger for others to control others.  I would also include the word and its meanings to being 'insecure.'  Those who are insecure with themselves and or their situation and or surroundings, have a need to get control.
 
I also have a different view of 'control' and prefer use of the word to dominate without being domineering, which is similar to but, does not have the same harshness as 'control.'
 
Some individuals do need to bully, intimidate, threaten, to insult, to disrespect, to attack others, to lie with malice, with intent to destroy others and other negative behaviors as to control others.  I do not wish for such individuals to be associated with dominants, who tend to be helpful, polite, respectful, to support, to be compassionate, honest, positive, guide and guardians of all without bias, prejudice and or malice, using positives.
 
In my mind's eye, I am of the belief, that the majority of individuals merely wish to participate as dominants, as to be helpful, healers, guides, teachers, inspire others, positive influences to others in addition to submissives and slaves.  They tend to be more like 'givers' rather than takers.  Investing in other's happiness and growth is the reward.
Whereas, those to whom have the intent to use their role as to crush others as to promote themselves, to 'feel' bigger and or better than themselves and or unable to trust others to delegate, to enable others to do tasks or to exist as they see fit, the 'my way only' and or iscolate others; to me are controllers and turn what should be pleasant experiences into a negative one. 
 
Most dominants must manifest giving up control, as to provide an opportunity for their slaves/submissives to feed their submission, by doing things for the dominant, to which the dominant wants at times to do themselves.  In addition, dominants must control themselves and be patient, as to allow the submissive/slave to be of service.  It is a learned skill on how to accept service of a slave/submissive, as well as to learn to give up our personal control and give it to the submissive and or slave to handle the tasks at their speed and pace.  Yet, each surrender of control by both dominant and submissive feed each other in a beautiful way indeed.
 
Insecure individuals would be those who find the need to act as a warden, micro-manage, do things themselves and leave little opportunity for a slave/submissive to go through their paces with a loose rein per se.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to kiska)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/23/2006 10:04:26 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I was going to add to my earlier post and had written something but whan I read KoM's posts I saw he had covered what I was saying so there is little point in my repeating it.....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 6/23/2006 10:05:23 PM >

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Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/29/2006 12:10:14 AM   
iFraudius


Posts: 18
Joined: 5/16/2006
Status: offline 		 
 I've always contended and it's recently become more clear than ever to me, that there are many in the D/s realm of orientation (yes, that's an attempt to avoid the "LS" word) who are seeking an idealized relationship that they perceive will be within their limitations to handle one.  That doesn't mean they know that or that they haven't in some way rationalized this as a route to less conflict. They may have a history of being woefully inadequate at coping with conflict resolution in intimate relationships and probably saw the same thing in their parents relationships.
 
As CrappyDom said:
 
quote:

but I think most who think they have none simply lack the self awareness to see them.

 
That sort of self-awareness is exactly what is lacking in people with this issue.  But they usually do such a good job of convincing themselves of their strengths, hinging their entire superior persona on elements of their life that require very limited, but highly manipulative people skills (like their job) and exaggerating other areas of their life that would make them seem more well rounded.  They have an inordinate need to be liked or "respected" and may have the skills to appear incredibly likable just to achieve that end.  They make friends and admirers just a bit too easily, or not at all, preferring to focus on the relationship partner to satiate their needs.
 
They frequently duplicate the parenting that limited them with their children and make every partner the eventual scapegoat of their own inadequacies.  When confronted about their own inconsistencies, declarations, omissions and changing rules in mid-stream, they will either be unable to respond or just get angry.
 
Some of the warning signs are an overly fast and inappropriate declaration of intimacy in the relationships they do enter into, with the partner and the relationship used to bolster their status with others.  Signs of an inability to deal with conflict begin to show themselves when there's any crack in the fantasy, expressed in exasperation and a feeling of being unappreciated and finally, a denouncement and rapid separation, wherein the partner is made into the one with inadequacies. 
 
People like this follow a pattern, which they may interrupt but it always will follow suit unless they can identify with and seek help dealing with their own fears.  But the world of D/s is the perfect place for them to hide, using their Dom or submissive status as a way to suppress or avoid the conflicts they never got the tools to deal with in interpersonal relationships.  Then it all blows up and they go on to find another "fantastic" sub or Dom, "the one they've always waited for" (until the road gets a bit rocky and they have to run away).
 
 This "dominant" individual will frequently gird their ego with a circle of "admirers" and frequently isn't at all hesitant to tout their wonderful qualities or reveal them for others to comment on, over and over again.  This is to both validate themselves and have a source of constant, safe affirmation.  The "submissive" will frequently assume an über "sensitive and caring" attitude to achieve the same thing as sympathy for yet another failed relationship.
 
Those who they temporarily make the focus of their attentions are left shocked and dazed at the roadside, wondering how someone who made them feel so good could cast them off like old shoes, only to be looking for a new and better version in a very short time.

< Message edited by iFraudius -- 6/29/2006 12:23:17 AM >

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(in reply to kiska)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/29/2006 12:32:05 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I thought about this for a while,and it came down to this.

I hate disorder and confusion in my life, and uneeded drama just annoys me to no end.  So is it insecurity? Is not wanting you life to be constant chaos, and a battle for control that never ends, insecure? I just want to  be able to do my part- and know what to expect in return, for my investment of time and care. That it's not going to be a waste of time.

So yes, I'm an admitted control freak with issues. I want to live peacefully, and in what harmony my remaning years will allow me. I don't think that's too much to ask.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 6/29/2006 12:35:51 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Not me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

So, do any of you Masters, Mistresses, dominants and tops in general feel that there might be some deep sense of inadequacy that causes or caused you to want to control others?

(in reply to kiska)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 7/1/2006 5:11:54 PM   
CaptainOfUranus


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I just do it because I like to see girls squirm and cry a little bit... I like to hold them down... Tell them what to do and if they don't... I like to make them... I like it when they turn their eyes away when I shame them... And when they brighten up when they've won my aproval... I like to pet their hair when they are knelt before me as I watch tv.

Sorry... Just trying to get rid of that freakin ice cream cone!

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Masters and inadequacy ... - 7/2/2006 7:17:15 AM   
TolerableCruelty


Posts: 447
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

So, do any of you Masters, Mistresses, dominants and tops in general feel that there might be some deep sense of inadequacy that causes or caused you to want to control others?



No.
(I'd have thought thats a question you'd have asked the subs and slaves)

T.R.

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I'm sorry if I've offended you.... but maybe you needed to be offended

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Profile   Post #: 57
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