RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission?

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/18/2013 10:49:37 PM)
Oh bless you, now you're either confused or you're resorting to the lamest tactic of all! It's untrue to suggest that I believe that it's ignorant or narrow-minded to believe differently from you. Are you deliberately lying? Or are you just terribly confused? quote: ORIGINAL: stef It's not being ignorant or narrow-minded to believe differently from you, but thanks anyway for so eloquently proving my point. If you read what I've said so far, veeery veeery carefully, you'll see that I think it's ignorant and narrow-minded to claim that slavery has only one useful / usable meaning on a BDSM board. Next I'd suggest that you re-read Oside's post... and marvel at how it is possible to be knowledgeable enough to see that there are other definitions of the term, and broad minded enough to accept that others like and use them even if you don't subscribe to them yourself. Then feel your mind broadening!

myotherself -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/18/2013 11:25:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder heh...seems I've caused quite a stir by saying I'm a slave. I mean, it's not like it's new news here. Everyone knows that's what I am, that we are M/s, that I don't have that option to just walk away. Am I chained up and unable to physically leave? No. Can I walk out the door at anytime? Yup. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not gonna let something just end that has 7 years of love, caring, hard work behind it. Yes, I know this is not very popular here, which I just find really, really strange. Maybe it's because 20 years ago, it wasn't such a big no-no and was readily acceptable. It seems things have changed though and now to be a slave seems to be taboo. Weird. Anyway, I admit that the longer I am on this site, the more I feel I don't belong and I have a feeling that I will probably be walking away from this place in the near future. It's like wearing a pair of jeans you have felt comfortable in your entire life but then end up with so much wear and tear that hesitantly you have to throw them out even though it almost brings you to tears to have to do. Pretty much this, especially the bolded part. When I joined cm it was possible to discuss slavehood in the BDSM sense without first having to battle through the people saying 'there's no such thing, get out of your fantasy land'! In the early days I didn't class myself as a slave (and had no wish to do so), but I still learned a hell of a lot from those on both sides of the kneel as to what it was all about. I saw this thread and almost commented on it, but having read the first few threads I thought there was no way was I going to try to give the OP an answer based on my life experiences because I simply didn't want to have to fight my way through the shit storm first. It's a shame, but maybe it is time to move on to more accepting pastures shrugs

crazyml -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/18/2013 11:30:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Agreeing with Allie; both lw and Kana are valued here. Yup

stef -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 12:25:10 AM)
Bless your heart.

crazyml -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 1:31:37 AM)
Oh, bless yours too.

Level -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 3:08:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder heh...seems I've caused quite a stir by saying I'm a slave. I mean, it's not like it's new news here. Everyone knows that's what I am, that we are M/s, that I don't have that option to just walk away. Am I chained up and unable to physically leave? No. Can I walk out the door at anytime? Yup. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not gonna let something just end that has 7 years of love, caring, hard work behind it. Yes, I know this is not very popular here, which I just find really, really strange. Maybe it's because 20 years ago, it wasn't such a big no-no and was readily acceptable. It seems things have changed though and now to be a slave seems to be taboo. Weird. Anyway, I admit that the longer I am on this site, the more I feel I don't belong and I have a feeling that I will probably be walking away from this place in the near future. It's like wearing a pair of jeans you have felt comfortable in your entire life but then end up with so much wear and tear that hesitantly you have to throw them out even though it almost brings you to tears to have to do. Pretty much this, especially the bolded part. When I joined cm it was possible to discuss slavehood in the BDSM sense without first having to battle through the people saying 'there's no such thing, get out of your fantasy land'! In the early days I didn't class myself as a slave (and had no wish to do so), but I still learned a hell of a lot from those on both sides of the kneel as to what it was all about. I saw this thread and almost commented on it, but having read the first few threads I thought there was no way was I going to try to give the OP an answer based on my life experiences because I simply didn't want to have to fight my way through the shit storm first. It's a shame, but maybe it is time to move on to more accepting pastures shrugs "Shit storm" isn"t the term I'd use; 99% of the responses have been simple "this is what I think".

ARIES83 -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 3:49:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder heh...seems I've caused quite a stir by saying I'm a slave. I mean, it's not like it's new news here. Everyone knows that's what I am, that we are M/s, that I don't have that option to just walk away. Am I chained up and unable to physically leave? No. Can I walk out the door at anytime? Yup. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not gonna let something just end that has 7 years of love, caring, hard work behind it. Yes, I know this is not very popular here, which I just find really, really strange. Maybe it's because 20 years ago, it wasn't such a big no-no and was readily acceptable. It seems things have changed though and now to be a slave seems to be taboo. Weird. Anyway, I admit that the longer I am on this site, the more I feel I don't belong and I have a feeling that I will probably be walking away from this place in the near future. It's like wearing a pair of jeans you have felt comfortable in your entire life but then end up with so much wear and tear that hesitantly you have to throw them out even though it almost brings you to tears to have to do. Pretty much this, especially the bolded part. When I joined cm it was possible to discuss slavehood in the BDSM sense without first having to battle through the people saying 'there's no such thing, get out of your fantasy land'! In the early days I didn't class myself as a slave (and had no wish to do so), but I still learned a hell of a lot from those on both sides of the kneel as to what it was all about. I saw this thread and almost commented on it, but having read the first few threads I thought there was no way was I going to try to give the OP an answer based on my life experiences because I simply didn't want to have to fight my way through the shit storm first. It's a shame, but maybe it is time to move on to more accepting pastures shrugs I think theres a place for the term "slave" as well as "submissive" to describe things, exectly what they describe (as I think has already been said) will probably change from person to person. I guess I've missed a post or something, because I don't see where discussions about "slaves" has become unacceptable or overly hindered by semantics. I consider the term slave to mean something unique in a "lifestyle" context... is that meaning unique to me? Probably... But I am still interested in reading what people discuss around it. Does the exact definition and usage matter? Why should this term matter more that the million other ambiguous ones we use here... I can see why there are self-identifying slaves wanting to take their ball and go home, the term and what it means to them is probably an important part of there self-image, I suppose it could be similar to telling someone who won a medal in the olympics that it doesn't really mean as much because of their sport. I can see them saying "well fuck you then". On the same point though... maybe you slaves shouldn't be so annoyed by something that is only as far as i can see, idle discussion... There are valid questions to some people, if those questions about the usage of "slave" aren't important to you, then ignore them and continue with whatever is important to you.

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 4:27:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder heh...seems I've caused quite a stir by saying I'm a slave. I mean, it's not like it's new news here. Everyone knows that's what I am, that we are M/s, that I don't have that option to just walk away. Am I chained up and unable to physically leave? No. Can I walk out the door at anytime? Yup. Would he hunt me down? Most likely. He's not gonna let something just end that has 7 years of love, caring, hard work behind it. Yes, I know this is not very popular here, which I just find really, really strange. Maybe it's because 20 years ago, it wasn't such a big no-no and was readily acceptable. It seems things have changed though and now to be a slave seems to be taboo. Weird. Anyway, I admit that the longer I am on this site, the more I feel I don't belong and I have a feeling that I will probably be walking away from this place in the near future. It's like wearing a pair of jeans you have felt comfortable in your entire life but then end up with so much wear and tear that hesitantly you have to throw them out even though it almost brings you to tears to have to do. Finds your set aside for now jeans, looking at you knowingly, I set to the simple task of embroidering them with graceful flourishes, just enough to add strength and dimension while pleasing the eye, following every well worn crease with scrolling stitches..... As a slave, you are understood by others who have stood in your collar before. There are many people who will never understand bdsm, and even the ones who do may not accept each facet. I do not understand some practices, but slavery..... i know slavery. I believe that people who do not understand it because of.two central ideas: 1. Because players, fakes and those who have bad motives for other reasons exist, there will always be a stigma to slavery, in the same way that we cringe when we see a submissive pledge herself to a twue dom, because he had an old.dog collar and brought it along for effect. (we know this is not you) 2. Because slavery, at it's finest, reflects both an ultimate satisfaction for a M, and a complete bonding and release of inhibition for the s, people that don't have that level of intimacy see the idea of slavery as something they could not accomplish, a ” further” step they could not reach.... Not everyone is comfortable with being a slave, Not everyone would be responsible enough to own a slave, Some will say it's not for them and be correct. Then again, not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon, some are stupid, squeamish, disinterested..... Oh, but the feeling of joy from that education, from touching someone's life in a way that enhances their abilities, that is a calling for the surgeon. For the patient...the need for that process, the touch, the healing.... And the look of pride on both of your faces when you both do for each other no matter what label you wear. That said, there is a need for representation on good boards like this. There are many silent voices who don't chime in and read. Let them see your happiness, your bliss. If they are jealous, it will show, If they are learning, let them see it done properly, If they are indifferent, so be it. If they are judgemental then it's their hangup. Kana & you show that it works. Sprays weatherproofing on your cleaned up embellished jeans with a few rhinestones for new painful thrills....intricate patterns showing the discipline of my skill dedicated to your new wearing..... Leaves them with a purple and blue ribbon set down where you left them for you to find. slips away smiling.

myotherself -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 4:31:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level "Shit storm" isn"t the term I'd use; 99% of the responses have been simple "this is what I think". Upon reflection I think you are right, Level. The vast majority on this particular thread have shared their views in a fairly non-judgemental way. There's a minority whose opinion appears to be somewhat twattish, but I guess you can't grow good crops without a sprinkling of poop [:D] Thankfully in this case, the poop is just pixels on a screen. I still think that there are better, less 'poopy' discussions of this particular dynamic being held elsewhere on the interwebz, which is why I'm tending to spend more and more time away from cm.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 5:00:30 AM)
Your post is such a prime example of the disconnect between the two terms. You blatantly assert that to be a slave is somehow 'more bonded' & 'ultimately more satisfying' -- you imply that to identify as a sub is to be "stupid, squeamish, disinterested." Those words are yours, not mine. You further implied that being a mere sub is 'fake submission' and that if a sub does not identify as a slave, it's because they "don't have that level of intimacy see the idea of slavery as something they could not accomplish, a ” further” step they could not reach" -- in other words, a failure as a submissive. Your viewpoint is ignorant and narrow minded at best. There is no way on earth you can know how satisfying, how intimate a couple's relationship is, or how well bonded or how deeply a person submits based on how they self label. Oh yeah, I'm just saying all this b/c I'm jealous of you. Dream on sparky, in spite of the glitz on the jeans, you're not that special.

LadyPact -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 5:06:37 AM)
I get what they are saying though. Those of us who have been around the CM block a few times remember those long debates about the difference between a sub and a slave and just what they would turn into sometimes. People trying to tell those that prefer the term submissive or D/s to describe their dynamic being fed that nonsense about how slaves or M/s was some kind of deeper thing. Then, you'd have the other side that would tell the M/s folks that they must be fantasists of some sort because the ability to leave a bad situation nullifies the slavery concept. This one is tame, but back then? [&:] Just off of the top of My head, when it comes to regular posters around this joint, it does seem that there has been a shift over the last six years in those who identify as M/s as opposed to D/s. It's not that they no longer exist. Some have gone for greener pastures and others are doing different things. I'd have to say that I see the same when it comes to members of the leather community. You can pretty much count us on one hand these days as far as regular posters go. That sure wasn't the case five years back. Don't get Me wrong. This isn't a dump on CM thing. The shift is out there in the real life word community, too. Even at My local munch I see more D/s folks or even tops and bottoms than I do M/s and/or leather people and oddly enough, the leather ratio here is higher than a lot of places. We just don't seem to get into this particular debate when we're at dinner.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 5:18:03 AM)
Well, it appears that it is time, once again ... quote: ORIGINAL The American Heritage Dictionary - submit (as found in Yahoo reference) 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another. In regards to this lifestyle, I think that's the definition which is most applicable. NOWHERE does it say: "up to a point" or "when I'm wanting to" or "when it's convenient". The difference between that and a "slave" in my mind (as has been already stated) is CHOICE. Someone who is a slave is one because they have no choice in the matter. While that's a very nice thought/idea for some, it doesn't work for me. I like my ladies to choose to be with me. No one's cuffed to a radiator (well, usually). I really believe that "slave" has come into our lifestyle because of two things: 1) Goreans 2) People (on the whole) having this perverse need to feel superior to others ("I'm not just a submissive; I'm a slave"). I've never understood it and have, pretty much, avoided ladies that identify as slaves because I sometimes wonder if they aren't looking for someone to "blame" for their behavior ("I didn't want to do X but, I'm a slave and master told me to"). I have known plenty of ladies who need that "push over the edge" and that ability to disengage from personal responsibility. I knew a lady that primarily only dated couples. She loved being "forced" to be with a woman. It wasn't a matter of force. It was the only way that she could deal with the fact that she was bisexual (because she'd been raised in such a close-minded setting at home). She needed to put the "blame" elsewhere. Peace and comfort, Michael

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 5:26:07 AM)
I agree with you LP, I have seen a shift on these boards, and I think the trend in general is for D/s relationships these days. The truth is (my truth, so my opinion) is that most people don't have what it takes to be a 'master' or a 'slave' how I define those terms. It's not that they aren't 'good' enough -- it's that they are not personally cut out for it. I don't see this at all as a failure to be a good enough dom to progress into being a master or a good enough sub to progress into being a slave. I do see it as people having enough self awareness to know what they can personally handle in their relationships. I consider myself a sub, b/c like Oside I have some issues with the concept of consensual slavery. In spite of this, many aspects of both my relationships are quite slavey. On a sexual level, there is no doubt I am Himself slave. It's not that I don't have the right to say no, it's that it doesn't occur to me. I look at Kana and lw's relationship and see many similarities to mine as well as some differences. I don't think her level of commitment, of intimacy, or of bonding with Kana is any different or more intense than mine is with Himself. I do see that on a lifestyle basis, she has less autonomy than I do. When she says 'I have no say' I don't think she means she has no right to a say (sorry lw for speaking for you) I think she means she's ceded that right as part of her relationship dynamic. The two of them are at a point in their relationship, it no longer occurs to her to say no to him. On some levels, I can very much relate to this. My point is, these issues of how much autonomy a sub retains, how much control a dominant demands or the sub cedes, these are all individual things pertinent to the couple and their relationship. To describe the differences in autonomy levels within specific relationships is a very difficult thing to do. You can toss around terms, ownership, TPE, whatever, unless you agree on terms, you don't have the semantic tools to really compare individual relationships. You certainly don't have the ability to pronounce judgement on which ones are better, deeper, more bonded, etc.

myotherself -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 5:37:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Well, it appears that it is time, once again ... quote: ORIGINAL The American Heritage Dictionary - submit (as found in Yahoo reference) 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another. In regards to this lifestyle, I think that's the definition which is most applicable. NOWHERE does it say: "up to a point" or "when I'm wanting to" or "when it's convenient". The difference between that and a "slave" in my mind (as has been already stated) is CHOICE. Someone who is a slave is one because they have no choice in the matter. While that's a very nice thought/idea for some, it doesn't work for me. I like my ladies to choose to be with me. No one's cuffed to a radiator (well, usually). I really believe that "slave" has come into our lifestyle because of two things: 1) Goreans 2) People (on the whole) having this perverse need to feel superior to others ("I'm not just a submissive; I'm a slave"). I've never understood it and have, pretty much, avoided ladies that identify as slaves because I sometimes wonder if they aren't looking for someone to "blame" for their behavior ("I didn't want to do X but, I'm a slave and master told me to"). I have known plenty of ladies who need that "push over the edge" and that ability to disengage from personal responsibility. I knew a lady that primarily only dated couples. She loved being "forced" to be with a woman. It wasn't a matter of force. It was the only way that she could deal with the fact that she was bisexual (because she'd been raised in such a close-minded setting at home). She needed to put the "blame" elsewhere. Peace and comfort, Michael If we're looking at choice, why can't a slave choose to be with their Master/Mistress and choose to hand over that degree of control to them? I think people are getting mixed up with the 'physical slave' situation and the 'internal enslavement' situation. Mine is the latter. I love my Master, he loves me. We have been together nearly 3 years and in that time we've moved from purely vanilla to Dom/sub. A long discussion a year or so back made us both realise that the situation we have more identifies with internal enslavement than it does with D/s (by our definitions) , which is why we decided to move on to M/s. Since then our relationship has become more intense and we're both finding the status quo of our being together. He knows he can now ask me to do anything, and I will do it. However I have given him this huge level of trust because I know he will not do anything to jeopardise my life, career or family relations. He just wouldn't do it. I don't have a safeword, I gave that up a year ago. He knows me, he knows my body language and he talks to me so he knows how I'm feeling at any time. He has, on occasion, told me to do things that I absolutely, totally hated or feared. Things that hurt really badly, or made me feel like crying or running away. I But I did them anyway, for him. And at the end, even though I found those things to be truly awful, they just strengthened the bond between us. The pain passed, I survived, he was happy that I did these things and I'm happy I made him so happy. I could, if I wanted, pick up and walk away. I'm not a physical slave, after all. But the thought of doing that is so, so much worse than all the horrible things he has made me do, or will make me do in the future.

LadyPact -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 6:01:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Well, it appears that it is time, once again ... quote: ORIGINAL The American Heritage Dictionary - submit (as found in Yahoo reference) 1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another. In regards to this lifestyle, I think that's the definition which is most applicable. NOWHERE does it say: "up to a point" or "when I'm wanting to" or "when it's convenient". The difference between that and a "slave" in my mind (as has been already stated) is CHOICE. Someone who is a slave is one because they have no choice in the matter. While that's a very nice thought/idea for some, it doesn't work for me. I like my ladies to choose to be with me. No one's cuffed to a radiator (well, usually). I really believe that "slave" has come into our lifestyle because of two things: 1) Goreans 2) People (on the whole) having this perverse need to feel superior to others ("I'm not just a submissive; I'm a slave"). I've never understood it and have, pretty much, avoided ladies that identify as slaves because I sometimes wonder if they aren't looking for someone to "blame" for their behavior ("I didn't want to do X but, I'm a slave and master told me to"). I have known plenty of ladies who need that "push over the edge" and that ability to disengage from personal responsibility. I knew a lady that primarily only dated couples. She loved being "forced" to be with a woman. It wasn't a matter of force. It was the only way that she could deal with the fact that she was bisexual (because she'd been raised in such a close-minded setting at home). She needed to put the "blame" elsewhere. Peace and comfort, Michael Michael, I'd have gone with a lot of this but I think you are excluding the leather culture. Before there was net BDSM (not excluding what people were doing in their own homes, etc) you can't negate that leather has been alive and well. While not all M/s is leather, most certainly leather folks identified as M/s. Oh, I completely give you points on your phrasing on how submission isn't only about the stuff that you like. If you've (general you) have chosen to submit to the will of another, that encompasses every bound within that dynamic. Liking it is besides the point. When we decided that we were going to restructure, it wasn't because I withdrew clip's choice. I'll tell you, him, and anybody that will listen that if I ever became unfit to own him due to some mental incapacity that he'd better walk his ass out. It was more him coming to his own conclusion that he removed his own choice. Being Mine is what he wants to be and brings him as close to being his authentic self as he can possibly get. It's not about being better than. It's about him being who he is.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 6:16:24 AM)
I'm really glad you brought the term internal enslavement to this conversation. A while back (6-9 months) we had a wonderful thread on the subject, and I've thought about it since. These are my conclusions (and my opinions): All intimate relationships of a romantic nature include some level of internal enslavement. This is why we have main stream people killing others for love, or sex or jealousy, songs written about being a slave to love, people who are addicted to being in love or to sex or to forming new relationships. Internal enslavement isn't new or trendy. But those of us into BDSM have been engaged in many discussions about what exactly our relationships are all about, and discussing the terms sub slave enslavement, etc is all part of that. It makes our relationships seem ever so much more special than vanilla relationships, when really they just aren't. People's levels of internal enslavement, intimacy, emotional bonding, etc have nothing to do with BDSM and everything to do with trust and compatibility for that specific couple. I've heard it said that BDSM couples trust each other more than vanilla couples. Er, no they don't. There is no possible way anyone can make that comparison, any more than they can say that M/s couple have more trust than D/s couples. Some couples have more trust than other couples. That's what you can say. As a consequence of that, some couples are more emotionally bonded than other couples. The perception that BDSM relationships are so very special is nonsense, and the pretense that M/s relationships are deeper or more intimate is bull shit. There are too many variables to be able to say these things with any degree of accuracy. All you can do is compare individual couples, and even then, all you'd have to go on is what they said.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 6:59:15 AM)
Interesting thread. I will throw my opinion in the pile. I think slavery is the highest form of commitment to an individual. I am not talking about sexual kink only but a mental commitment. I think it absolutely is not for everyone thats for sure. Like it has been said, it is truly what ever makes the couple happy and what fits in their comfort zone. It is a huge responsiblity and risk as much to the master as the slave. Cause lets face it, even the wisest people make mistakes. So forfeiting someone elses opinion or thoughts in all things, puts alot of pressure on the master to get it right everytime on the big stuff. THats not always gonna happen. Someitmes the slave probably has a better solution or idea. It takes a huge amount of control and selflessness for a slave to keep their mouth shut, and not voice an opinion even when they know what the master is about to do is a mistake. That to me is commitment at the highest form. YOu see all kinds of want to be's, self proclaimed this or that, people claiming to masters or doms and dont know their ass from a hole in the ground. Same with so called slaves or subs, who really just want to be taken care of, or get their rocks off. Goes on on both sides. BUt for those Dom/masters who are serious, and not simply kink oriented and have the sub/slaves best interest at heart, I think it does exist and it is the most humble of positions that requires great strength, requires so much trust, and is selfless. I think to put one's self in that position though, and you are committing to that type of relationship and are saying my will is no longer my own, one should be committing to an exceptional wise human being.

OsideGirl -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 8:11:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself I saw this thread and almost commented on it, but having read the first few threads I thought there was no way was I going to try to give the OP an answer based on my life experiences because I simply didn't want to have to fight my way through the shit storm first. It's not any different than having to read page after page of people basically describing my relationship as something unserious because I label myself as a submissive. Truly, I just add my perspective and accept that it really doesn't matter. We're happy doing what we're doing.

LadyPact -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 8:12:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I agree with you LP, I have seen a shift on these boards, and I think the trend in general is for D/s relationships these days. The truth is (my truth, so my opinion) is that most people don't have what it takes to be a 'master' or a 'slave' how I define those terms. It's not that they aren't 'good' enough -- it's that they are not personally cut out for it. I don't see this at all as a failure to be a good enough dom to progress into being a master or a good enough sub to progress into being a slave. I do see it as people having enough self awareness to know what they can personally handle in their relationships. I consider myself a sub, b/c like Oside I have some issues with the concept of consensual slavery. In spite of this, many aspects of both my relationships are quite slavey. On a sexual level, there is no doubt I am Himself slave. It's not that I don't have the right to say no, it's that it doesn't occur to me. I look at Kana and lw's relationship and see many similarities to mine as well as some differences. I don't think her level of commitment, of intimacy, or of bonding with Kana is any different or more intense than mine is with Himself. I do see that on a lifestyle basis, she has less autonomy than I do. When she says 'I have no say' I don't think she means she has no right to a say (sorry lw for speaking for you) I think she means she's ceded that right as part of her relationship dynamic. The two of them are at a point in their relationship, it no longer occurs to her to say no to him. On some levels, I can very much relate to this. My point is, these issues of how much autonomy a sub retains, how much control a dominant demands or the sub cedes, these are all individual things pertinent to the couple and their relationship. To describe the differences in autonomy levels within specific relationships is a very difficult thing to do. You can toss around terms, ownership, TPE, whatever, unless you agree on terms, you don't have the semantic tools to really compare individual relationships. You certainly don't have the ability to pronounce judgement on which ones are better, deeper, more bonded, etc. I think, for at least some of us, we look at long term success within the lives of other people, and it is easy to see the concepts that they have that are similar to our own. Love, respect, commitment, loyalty. These things don't change because of a label. It's why I can't subscribe to the theory that kink, authority dynamic or whatever makes something better or deeper. In six years around this place, I've never been articulate enough to convey what it is that the marriage that MP and I have. Our pairing together has little to no kink involved. He wouldn't leave Me any sooner than clip would leave Me and trust Me, that's not because I'm some picnic to live with. Take My word for it. I'm not. (Oh My Gosh, I am soooo not.)

PeonForHer -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 8:33:49 AM)
FR Pfft. I still don't know the difference between mandarins and tangerines. I just buy the ones that look tastiest at the time.

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