RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission?

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (Full Version)

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myotherself -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 8:36:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl It's not any different than having to read page after page of people basically describing my relationship as something unserious because I label myself as a submissive. Truly, I just add my perspective and accept that it really doesn't matter. We're happy doing what we're doing. I totally understand with you and I see where you're coming from, and that was exactly my point with other posters' attempts to dismiss slavery as some kind of fantasy land instead of as much a valid lifestyle choice as Dom/me, sub, switch, top, bottom and all that other good stuff. There's so much 'one twue wayism' kicking around that I can't see how anyone can actually be doing anything right! [:D] I had no problem at all with the way you expressed your opinion. We have different views, but that's fine. It would be boring if we all agreed all the time! Hell, I normally find what you write to be insightful and interesting. This time was no exception [:)]

Level -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 9:20:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself quote: ORIGINAL: Level "Shit storm" isn"t the term I'd use; 99% of the responses have been simple "this is what I think". Upon reflection I think you are right, Level. The vast majority on this particular thread have shared their views in a fairly non-judgemental way. There's a minority whose opinion appears to be somewhat twattish, but I guess you can't grow good crops without a sprinkling of poop [:D] Thankfully in this case, the poop is just pixels on a screen. I still think that there are better, less 'poopy' discussions of this particular dynamic being held elsewhere on the interwebz, which is why I'm tending to spend more and more time away from cm. This is what I hate; good people, with much to offer, feeling their input isn't welcome or valued [:)] To me, evolution requires a number of things, including having beliefs examined, and examined again; folks wirh widely divergent thoughts and beliefs are often the stones that sharpen and hone our own.

Kana -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 2:41:44 PM)
Fuck the labels. Cripes-all they do is divide people. She calls herself a slave. Great. Oside calls herself a sub-equally great. None of the monikers means shit. The only real title that matters is "Mine." As long as she's that, I could care less what name people slap on it. I own her ass. Mind, body, soul-that shit is mine. I wanna put a heavy nose ring in, something that would look best on an ox, I'm damn well gonna. I wanna brand, scar, snuggle, cuddle, burn, whatever. She's my fucking property, to do with as I please. And to this cat, that's the only relevant thing.

anaturalsubmiss -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 4:35:17 PM)
Ownership is the final goal of submission (at least for me).

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 7:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Your post is such a prime example of the disconnect between the two terms. You blatantly assert that to be a slave is somehow 'more bonded' & 'ultimately more satisfying' -- you imply that to identify as a sub is to be "stupid, squeamish, disinterested." Those words are yours, not mine. You further implied that being a mere sub is 'fake submission' and that if a sub does not identify as a slave, it's because they "don't have that level of intimacy see the idea of slavery as something they could not accomplish, a ” further” step they could not reach" -- in other words, a failure as a submissive. Your viewpoint is ignorant and narrow minded at best. There is no way on earth you can know how satisfying, how intimate a couple's relationship is, or how well bonded or how deeply a person submits based on how they self label. Oh yeah, I'm just saying all this b/c I'm jealous of you. Dream on sparky, in spite of the glitz on the jeans, you're not that special. Thank you for your thoughts. Please understand that I was not referring to slave vs. sub. I was saying people in general that don't understand another persons bond at any level, or even another persons turn on. I don't think” less” of a submissive. I spoke from my point of view how a slave feels on the inside, and how people may not understand what that does for them. One is an orange, and the other 1 is a tangerine....I like both for different reasons, but for the people who don't get tangerines it's their issue. We are each simply what we are. I was referring to coexistence & understanding.

littlewonder -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 8:05:19 PM)
Thank you all for the interesting conversation and for making me feel as if my jeans just needed a bit of repair. [;)] I will say though, that it is conversations that this started out as, one of the reasons I am hesitant at times to tell others I am a slave in the bdsm arena. What's funny for me is, "vanilla" people seem to have less problem with it than those in bdsm circles it seems. lol It was interesting to read the comments tonight.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 9:09:20 PM)
These threads are always so interesting :) When I first got into BDSM, the progression idea made sense to me. But when I got more involved with that infamous Dude I was with, I realized that it didn't really make sense, as a black-and-white concept, anyway. Because I didn't pass through a lot of steps with him - he was the Owner, and I was the owned. And it just really worked well that way, pretty much from the beginning. We got to know each other through the process and talked a lot and it just made sense to function that way towards him. It's like... a Guy was walking home one day and found a friendly stray that just wanted to be with him. =p hahaha So I agree with those who say that they are just different takes in a similar place. They aren't exactly the same, they aren't completely and utterly dissimilar; neither is better or worse, more advanced or simple. To me, what matters is the ownership thing - and that can take so many forms, it's difficult to pin point that, too, yanno. One guy owns a 100 year old house that's as glorious as the day it was build. Another guy owns a 2 year old house that should probably be condemned. But some kind of concept of ownership has to exist (at least in my opinion) for M/s. It's very hard for me to even elaborate on the differences as I see them, I just know what I don't want in a relationship and what I do want. I don't feel that either is better than the other, I just know that one of them more accurately describes what I'm seeking, and who I am, so I try to use that...

Jenniferloves -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 9:28:26 PM)
I enjoyed reading this thread and as many have mentioned it seems to boil down to one’s own perspective. That being said, I think the OP was curious about the traits of submissiveness and slavery. Perhaps as each dynamic in either a D/s or M/s relationship differ depending on one’s situation, there might not be a consensus. Although I would like to have more of a concrete definition that appears to be universally agreed by all, at least the fundamentals. I came across this website that lists the levels of subs/slaves. http://sweetsurrender.org/manual.html

sexyred1 -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 9:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I'm really glad you brought the term internal enslavement to this conversation. A while back (6-9 months) we had a wonderful thread on the subject, and I've thought about it since. These are my conclusions (and my opinions): All intimate relationships of a romantic nature include some level of internal enslavement. This is why we have main stream people killing others for love, or sex or jealousy, songs written about being a slave to love, people who are addicted to being in love or to sex or to forming new relationships. Internal enslavement isn't new or trendy. But those of us into BDSM have been engaged in many discussions about what exactly our relationships are all about, and discussing the terms sub slave enslavement, etc is all part of that. It makes our relationships seem ever so much more special than vanilla relationships, when really they just aren't. People's levels of internal enslavement, intimacy, emotional bonding, etc have nothing to do with BDSM and everything to do with trust and compatibility for that specific couple. I've heard it said that BDSM couples trust each other more than vanilla couples. Er, no they don't. There is no possible way anyone can make that comparison, any more than they can say that M/s couple have more trust than D/s couples. Some couples have more trust than other couples. That's what you can say. As a consequence of that, some couples are more emotionally bonded than other couples. The perception that BDSM relationships are so very special is nonsense, and the pretense that M/s relationships are deeper or more intimate is bull shit. There are too many variables to be able to say these things with any degree of accuracy. All you can do is compare individual couples, and even then, all you'd have to go on is what they said. All of this. I am so tired of people trying to label things and then further adding to the nonsense by judging what is more intense (slave vs. sub). There is a never ending quest for oneupmanship when it comes to "I am more of a slave than you are". No one knows what goes on in anyone's relationship and honestly? Even if you think you are sharing your dynamic with friends and strangers, they STILL will not know what goes on between two people. Even the title of the thread is wrong for me. Being submissive is not a goal. Becoming a slave is not a goal. It is what happens in a relationship. My only goal in a relationship of any kind is to have a fulfilling relationship, whatever I call myself and who my partner is.

crazyml -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 11:32:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana None of the monikers means shit. The only real title that matters is "Mine." Kanatastic.

crazyml -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/19/2013 11:54:18 PM)
This is a general reply rather than a reply specifically to Kana. I think these threads are important, as a reminder that this is a broad "thingamie" we're involved in, and that flying to judgement on other people's perspectives is a silly thing to do, not least because it makes the person doing the judging look stupid, but (more importantly) it runs the real risk of excluding people - both really experienced people like littlewonder who have a lot to bring to a forum like this (and who probably bring far more to the forum than they get out of it) and less experienced people who might be searching for just the kind of wonderful insight that people like littlewonder can bring. Three or so years ago, I was very adamantly in the school "no such thing as consensual slavery", and was inclined to make an ass of myself on "slavery threads". Then a couple of people, including BarelynAngel, were able to open up my mind. That isn't to say that it will ever be my bag, but I have a ton of respect (and not a little bit of envy) for the people that have formed full-on M/s relationships that work well. I'm with the posters who are irked by the "my x is more y than yours!" tendency that some people have, I believe that a fabulous vanilla relationship (assuming the people were vanilla) could be every bit as intense as the hardest of hard core M/s relationships - And that both can be as "shallow" as the other at the opposite end of the spectrum. Aanyways... I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Doomkittie -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 3:40:58 AM)
Im looking for the like button! quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst IDK... If I didn't pay attention I was treated to a few hours of his yelling at me to make sure I got it. Sometimes slavery is not so literal as history presents it. And before anyone chimes in with that is not dominance, it is possible to be an asshole and still pull the puppet strings. I spent 10 years there.. And yes, he was just an arsehole and I was a slave, not a submissive though. That came later.

OsideGirl -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 8:26:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jenniferloves Although I would like to have more of a concrete definition that appears to be universally agreed by all, at least the fundamentals. I came across this website that lists the levels of subs/slaves. http://sweetsurrender.org/manual.html [/size] I wish someone would just come along, ban that list and fry the server on any website that hosts it.

Charles6682 -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 9:21:05 AM)
I guess it really doesn't matter if one identifys with being a sub/slave/swtich,whatever.Whatever works best for that person.

xssve -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 9:45:20 AM)
quote: I am more interested in how you think a slave and a sub "can not be ranked and compared." As well as some in depth clarification of how their skills sets and roles differ. It's just a different freak, for the details ask one of 'em.

Jenniferloves -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 6:23:57 PM)
Why would you want to ban the list? A sub would not dominate, a Dom wouldn’t submit. I guess the OP was interested if the goals of Subs or Slaves (or should those be lowercase?)[;)] are similar or if they differ.Many people have alluded to the fact that it doesn’t matter now, that the roles have almost converged and that each identity is in the eye of the beholder or the shackled! Perhaps this list is not accurate but it might help those trying to find out what they are or what they are not. If there are other descriptions contrasting the differences between the two roles, then do post them. Broadly speaking, if we don’t have boundaries, it’s not implausible to think that roles of Dom/sub or Master/slave could converge or maybe happen - or would that be called switching? Lol. quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Jenniferloves Although I would like to have more of a concrete definition that appears to be universally agreed by all, at least the fundamentals. I came across this website that lists the levels of subs/slaves. http://sweetsurrender.org/manual.html I wish someone would just come along, ban that list and fry the server on any website that hosts it.

littlewonder -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 7:58:08 PM)
Personally I agree with Oside. I'm another who hates that list and sites like it, what I call the "CastleRealm" sites. There are no levels. You don't work up the ladder like you would do at a job. Basically in the end, it is whatever you and your partner/s feel about one another and what you both agree on. Yes, I think there is a difference in certain terms but not levels but in the end, as others have said, even the terms in the end mean nothing to anyone except who you are with. I personally have always liked the different terms when I was still single for the sole purpose of trying to get across what I am like in a relationship. I'm not just submissive in a relationship. I'm submissive in life in general and even more so in a relationship. But that still means I had to go into depth with a potential of what the term meant for me and he needed to tell me what it was he wanted. Unfortunately in the past, that communication was lacking and we both realized afterwards that we were not compatible. He was more or less searching for someone who had well....more balls I guess, had no problems with being dominant in areas of her life and such. When he realized I can't do that, he grew bored with me. So in the end all you need is clear and concise communication and lots and lots of it. Don't rely on a term to get what you want.

StefanandLucinda -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 8:00:23 PM)
Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM: A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor. A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation. They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor. I don't agree that they are the same. However, since other people do, I decided to look up the two definations online. Slave: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave 1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another Submissive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submissive 1. submitting to others One is chattal and one is just willing. Two totally different things. Lucinda

littlewonder -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 8:03:13 PM)
Wow!!! Insecure and worthless??? Really???? Seriously??? hahahahahaha I gotta say that's a first for anyone to call me. That's the funniest thing I've read all day!

DesFIP -> RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? (2/20/2013 8:12:36 PM)
Sorry folks, but you're talking out of your ass. I'm neither worthless nor totally insecure. In fact, I wouldn't have entered into such a relationship prior to sufficient therapy that I am now extremely healthy with non permeable boundaries. Dictionary definitions do not discuss consensual slavery and therefore are not applicable. And the lists are bullshit because they assume that you're both into pain. Dominant does not equal sadist, submissive does not equal masochist. Usually, I just describe The Man as a bulldozer. Either I do what he wants or I get flattened.

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