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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:24:37 PM

Jenniferloves

Posts: 65
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So in the end all you need is clear and concise communication and lots and lots of it. Don't rely on a term to get what you want.

quote:

So in the end all you need is clear and concise communication and lots and lots of it. Don't rely on a term to get what you want.

I agree with you on, especially the bolded bit. But it is precisely because of your definition, which defines you, helped you make your search for your Master or Dominant. You communicated your needs/wants. So terms do matter, as you communicated them and you did not end up with a submissive, it was a Dom or Master you sought.

To take it a step back further, why would anyone, not just you LW, define themselves as anything, if they had not some idea of basic concepts and what it involves?

The OP asked if the Goals are similar or differ... everyone (ok almost everyone) mentioned it’s down to one’s own perspective. I don’t disagree as such however no one is being definitive and in turn, the OP, never mind me,( although I’ve enjoyed this thread/question ) is getting specific answers.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 101

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:26:23 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Holy shit! I am literally shocked that somebody could hit the 'send' button after typing that up.

Oside's been submitting in her current relationship for thirteen years. Do you really consider that a "period of time"? I know one D/s couple who has been together for thirty years.

The word masochist (person who likes pain) doesn't have squat to do with relationship role. There are a lot of bottoms out there who just want to enjoy or endure pain. It doesn't have anything to do with submission.

Oh, hey! All of you subs out there who happen to like pain, please be advised. It's been proclaimed that you're doing it wrong.

I can promise you that I can scare the shit out of darn near any submissive that I was in a dynamic with if I tried. I've scared a few on these boards. That's even with the fact that I am not a verb, which is what the word "dominate" is as a term. I promise you that I'm a noun.

If clip though he was worthless, a) he wouldn't be Mine and b) if he was Mine and felt that way about himself, I'd probably slap the taste out of his mouth.

Congratulations. I have never wanted to throw a copy of any book on the leather lifestyle at somebody's head more just by reading a single post than I would in this instance.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 102

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:28:20 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation. They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor.

I don't agree that they are the same. However, since other people do, I decided to look up the two definations online.
Slave: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave
1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

Submissive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submissive
1. submitting to others

One is chattal and one is just willing. Two totally different things.

Lucinda

Feel free to stick around, and read and learn different perspectives. Your espoused views are not universally held.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 103

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:44:43 PM

Jenniferloves

Posts: 65
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And the lists are bullshit because they assume that you're both into pain. Dominant does not equal sadist, submissive does not equal masochist.

Have to say, the lists may differ from author to author.

While some may as you said be, Bullshit, surely there must be some universally agreed concepts of either role? Otherwise you could not have known the differences being Dom or Sub?

The http://www.sweetsurrender.org/ site had levels or differences between subs or slaves and was only posted to help the OP.

There is another website that deals with Internal Enslavement, http://www.enslavement.org.uk/

So I’m not picking one site over another.
Until I see a more definitive basic concept of either role, then I’m happy with what I understand and yet to find out.

There again, maybe people are happy to blur the roles (that’s if there are differences) because it suits them.

Edited for specific page of manual - levels of subs to slaves can be accessed here: http://sweetsurrender.org/manual.html

Disclaimer: This by the way is not my work.

Source: Sir Jude's Household which cites the following authors:

"dissection of slavery author Diane Vera attempted to create a scale in which people can measure (or be measured) against back in the 1980s. It was published in Pat Califa's “Lesbian S/M Safety Manual”

< Message edited by Jenniferloves -- 2/20/2013 8:59:30 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 104

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:48:06 PM

StefanandLucinda

Posts: 27
Joined: 11/27/2012
Status: offline

11977 and 19452 posts. Speaks for itself.

I am entitled to my own opinion. Just as you are yours. Obviously...

lucinda

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 105

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:50:21 PM

StefanandLucinda

Posts: 27
Joined: 11/27/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Feel free to stick around, and read and learn different perspectives. Your espoused views are not universally held.

My views do not have to be universally held. Neither do yours or thiers.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 106

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 8:53:59 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

11977 and 19452 posts. Speaks for itself.

I am entitled to my own opinion. Just as you are yours. Obviously...

lucinda

Good luck with that here.

I have a feeling you won't last long.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 107

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/20/2013 9:10:16 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Feel free to stick around, and read and learn different perspectives. Your espoused views are not universally held.

My views do not have to be universally held. Neither do yours or thiers.

Sure, except that your view offends pretty much everyone here. Making "true way" pronoun cements is usually frowned upon here.

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 108

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 2:32:16 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

11977 and 19452 posts. Speaks for itself.

lucinda

Yes, it does. It speaks to the fact tat they have been living in their long term dynamics for such a period of time that they have worthwhile things to say.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 109

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 4:02:23 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

I was Master's submissive for a year and a half. For a fair part of that time we didn't have sex (that was my decision, until I was sure we were temperamentally right for each other). There was no sexual fulfillment because there was no sex. I was still his submissive though. There are also submissives that I know in r/l who serve dominants, but don't engage in sexual relationships at all.

quote:

A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oooh, the laffs we get on this site, eh?

Yes, I'm Master's slave. I am so insecure that I have a good job with a lot of responsibility, lots of friends, a home I own and am studying for (yet another) post-graduate degree.

Yeah, that's lil ol' insecure, worthless me!

And 'manipulation'? Puhlease! Try this instead: "A slave is attracted to a DominANT personality that specifically wants to 'own' another human being by being a strong, confident leader who inspires the slave, through words and actions, to place their trust in the Dominant's hands".

quote:

They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor.

There is PLENTY that is off limits. Master knows of my limits and he could, if he wanted, order me to do something that is on my list of hard limits. But I TRUST him not to do that, because he is as deeply invested in our relationship as I am. I KNOW that he's not an asshat who would wield the mighty Sword Of The Dominate just to prove he has the power. He's a grown-up who has proved to me over and over again that he can be trusted.

Pain is part of our relationship, simply because I chose to be with a sadist, and he chose to be with a masochist. If we weren't s&m there would be a lot less pain, but I can't see how that would change the M/s dynamic. We also don't do humiliation. It's neither of our 'thing'. And to be honest, the few things he's tried that were supposed to make me feel humiliated just made us both giggle.

And fear is a factor? Fear of what? Fear of him? If I was afraid of him, I wouldn't trust him to control me and he wouldn't be my Master. End of.

You may have experience of playing with submissives, but you don't seem to have the first clue about the submissive or slave minds.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 110

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 4:07:36 AM

ChatteParfaitt

Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation. They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor.

I don't agree that they are the same. However, since other people do, I decided to look up the two definations online.
Slave: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave
1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

Submissive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submissive
1. submitting to others

One is chattal and one is just willing. Two totally different things.

Lucinda

I'm going to make one statement: Please copy this post to someplace on your computer so that you have it saved for the next few years. Then, five years from now, read it again and see if you still agree with what you'v written here.

_____________________________

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 111

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 4:17:37 AM

Toysinbabeland

Posts: 1693
Joined: 3/4/2012
From: the other end of Cx's leash
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation. They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor.

I don't agree that they are the same. However, since other people do, I decided to look up the two definations online.
Slave: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave
1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

Submissive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submissive
1. submitting to

One is chattal and one is just willing. Two totally different things.

Lucinda

You clearly have no grasp of this.

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 112

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 7:29:04 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenniferloves

Have to say, the lists may differ from author to author.

While some may as you said be, Bullshit, surely there must be some universally agreed concepts of either role? Otherwise you could not have known the differences being Dom or Sub?

Well, lets start with: that list equates BDSM with D/s. BDSM = Bondage/Discipline/Sad-Masochism. You can engage in D/s and never engage in BDSM. You can engage in BDSM and never engage in D/s.

So, just from that viewpoint alone the entire list is wrong.

Part two: it devalues part of our community, by placing them into lower castes and it gives novices false information. It basically says, that if you're not aspiring to be "level 9" then you're just playing.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to Jenniferloves)

Post #: 113

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 8:17:35 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

A slave is typically very insecure with themselves and feels worthless (generally speaking) and is attracted to a Dominate personality that specifically wants to "own" another human being through control and manipulation. They like to play the oppostie ends of the spectrum together and nothing is off limits. These relationships almost always include humilation and pain for the slave, which is not the case for subbies. Fear is a factor.

I don't agree that they are the same. However, since other people do, I decided to look up the two definations online.
Slave: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave
1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another

Submissive: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/submissive
1. submitting to others

One is chattal and one is just willing. Two totally different things.

Lucinda

Idiotic statements.
How could you possibly know if a slave feels "worthless and insecure"?

I noted on your profile it states your bi sexual. Should I assume you are and feel "confused and indecisive"

SHould I think it is typical and put you in that category.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 2/21/2013 8:22:59 AM >

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 114

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 10:39:14 AM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline

+1 Osidegirl :)

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 115

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 12:58:24 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

There is an element of force implied in the word slave itself, it's certainly more than implied in the legal definition, but force is fantasy too, whether it arises from insecurity, and we all have some of that, or sheer thrill value - like riding a roller coaster: you have no control over the thing, but you trust the operator not fling you off into the lake or something.

It does not imply a lack of value, which is another trip entirely, and "slavery" in the lifestyle sense, is not synonymous with humiliation/degradation, even if they are occasionally found in conjunction, and it takes a tough soul to absorb that kind of abuse, and if you can't absorb it, we would probably have to call it abuse.

But, they are two different trips, and we have two different labels to describe them, even if one them is a little fuzzy - it's pretty easy to nail down humiliation/degradation, and it does not even require a d/s relationship, much less an m/s relationship.

There are other values to examine here as well that might be more definitive: duration for example - slave implies a long term proprietary relationship, whereas a submissive could mean anything from bottom sceneing to a 24/7 till death do us part.

In a way, I think the real underlying assumption is that in a Master/Slave relationship only the Master can call it off by emancipating you, among other possibilities, but it doesn't mean that a D/S relationship is therefore theoretically any less committed, but it's assumed to be a more mutual commitment.

In short it's not hard and fast, there is no hard and fast here, legally there is no difference between calling yourself a slave or calling yourself a submissive in the lifestyle sense, and even behaviorally not much difference either, there is probably a larger difference between say poly and monogamous, which can be found in both M/S and D/S - they are quantitatively similar, it's just the specific dynamics of the thing might qualitatively differ, as fetishes often do.

When you say "slave", the thing you are invoking is ownership: the slave is assumed to be property. It's only hypothetically in this instance, you are virtual property, only real property in direct ratio to what degree you conform to the legal definition.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 116

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 1:12:39 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

"Ownership" itself however, is more of an independent variable, i.e., it's also found in D/S, and has even found it's way into law at various times and places, a minor is a kind of "slave" to their parents, but a very specific kind, and the rights and responsibilities of both parties are fairly explicitly defined by law.

What I should have said, is that "Slave" implies a more explicit Owner/Property relationship, whereas it tends to be more of an implicit assumption in other types of consensual relationships.

In the end, as long as it doesn't fit the legal definition, it's more of a qualitative issue of custom and convention.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/21/2013 1:15:40 PM >

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 117

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 3:18:40 PM

stephINca

Posts: 87
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline

I always thought that sub and slave were completly different things. Unfortunately I have also found that men, that I have run into, seem to think that sissy has to go along with slave. Curious how people think about things. I guess in the end what you call yourself depends on you and your partner. Until then D/s is just a personality type.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 118

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 5:53:07 PM

peppermint

Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StefanandLucinda

Here's how I look at it in context to BSDM:

A subbie is generally happy in life but wants to give up control of mind and body for a period of time to a person(s) he/she totally trusts in order to have a pleasurable sexual relationship. They take direction well and enjoy letting another lead them down the path of sexual fulfillment. Fear is not a factor.

Lucinda

Where in the hell did you come up with this? I have been a collared submissive for 7 years and I guess you could call that a "period of time." This means for we've worked at our dynamic 7 straight years, 24/7 as we are seldom apart. Yes, we have had a great sexual relationship, however, our sex life is very vanilla and without kink. Our D/s relationship is not done for sexual purposes. Our D/s relationship is done for the power exchange. He's the boss, simple. My job is to make his life easier and better than it would be without me.

Just tell me, how can sleeping, eating, and staying in his hospital ICU room for 3 weeks so that I am there if he needs me for anything be sexual? As to taking direction well, well he'd be dead if I always did that. I know more than he does when he needs to head to the ER and I will get him there by hook or by crook, because it's my job to make sure he gets the care he needs. And you call that merely a pleasurable sexual relationship? Your head is up you know where.

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

(in reply to StefanandLucinda)

Post #: 119

RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 2/21/2013 6:43:04 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

As to taking direction well, well he'd be dead if I always did that.

Lol.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 120

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