njlauren
Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenniferloves
Why would you want to ban the list?
A sub would not dominate, a Dom wouldn’t submit.
I guess the OP was interested if the goals of Subs or Slaves (or should those be lowercase?) are similar or if they differ.Many people have alluded to the fact that it doesn’t matter now, that the roles have almost converged and that each identity is in the eye of the beholder or the shackled!
Perhaps this list is not accurate but it might help those trying to find out what they are or what they are not. If there are other descriptions contrasting the differences between the two roles, then do post them.
Broadly speaking, if we don’t have boundaries, it’s not implausible to think that roles of Dom/sub or Master/slave could converge or maybe happen - or would that be called switching? Lol.quote:
ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenniferloves
Although I would like to have more of a concrete definition that appears to be universally agreed by all, at least the fundamentals. I came across this website that lists the levels of subs/slaves.
http://sweetsurrender.org/manual.html
I wish someone would just come along, ban that list and fry the server on any website that hosts it.
It isn't even that it is inaccurate, it is that it is framing rules where by its very nature you cannot have rules. Other posters have put it brilliantly, the thing about any relationship, whether it is vanilla or BD/SM, D/s,M/s, whatever labels, is that it is organic, it grows around the people involved. That list on the other hand represents external rules, rules that are like "if you want to be a slave, you do X; if you are an M, you do Y" and that is nothing more then the biggest enemy of freedom you have, dogma, it is saying "this is the progression, and unless you have accumulated 50 KEU's (Kink Education Units, kind of like continuing ed credits *lol*), you can't consider yourself a slave. It is like the so called "Old Guard" protocols, with the 5 positions of submission, etc *eeek*..... It would be like a woman getting married and reading Phylis Schafly and think her duty as a wife is to stand by the door with a dry martini in a bikini each evening and taking that as being the 'proper wife'.
There is nothing wrong with ideas about submission or slavery, like saying "Master J and slave k live like this" and they describe how it worked for them, that is fine, as suggestions, and sharing, it is great. But when you get a list that says
-If you submit in the bedroom with a safe word, you are a wanker
-If you submit totally in the bedroom, no safe word,you are a potential sub lacking in fred
-if you move up and let your partner decide how much you should weigh, you show promise
.......
-If you finally get to the point where you can't do anything without your M's permission, if you can't take a drink of water, go to the bathroom, put on a pair of socks, blink your eyes, breath, then you are at last a full slave...
And it is bullshit. I love when people talk about their relationships, both D/M and su/sl, about what they do, how they feel, what works, what doesn't, because it gives everyone else thoughts, feelings and insight...but when some self appointed aholes say "this is how you become real", they can fuck off and die.
Put it this way, it wasn't many years ago that in the trans world there was this incredibly horrible gatekeeper mentality, where this small group of so called 'experts', psychs, doctors, you name it, had this laundry list of how a trans person (talking M to F ) should go. If you were married, you immediately had to get divorced as one of the proven steps, after all, if ya wanted to be a woman, well, you wouldn't want to stay married, would you. If you started going to appointments dressed, you better be in full war paint, heels, hose, dress, etc, and practically simpering. If you told them you were sexually interested in women, out you went, if you were interested in women, why would you want to become one? If you didn't tell them you were more interested in reading fashion magazines then let's say a car magazine, out you went.......and they had defined timetables, you could have been living as a woman for years, and they would deny you HRT, because you hadn't been with them for a year. They were defining de facto "this is what it means to be a women", which boiled down to 'this is what I as a hetero, vanilla person, think it means"..and it fucking sucked, it took a lot of years to break the influence of mostly well intentioned people like Harry Benjamin or the more misguided trolls like John Money and the like..
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RE: Is slavery the final goal of submission? - 
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