RE: UK apology for India massacre?

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jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 7:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Now, as for slaves for menial labor, abhorrent practice. The slave trade was a black mark on Anglo-European history. You do know slavery was rife in the US before the Europeans got there. In both North and South America. Yup, the alternative use of war captives for those cultures who did not practice human sacrifice. However, in all the oral histories I have heard over the years by Native Americans, I really never heard them call themselves civilized, the rest of the world claimed to be civilized. Granted that is not an excuse, but I fail to see how civilized people can condone slavery. Other than the voluntary servitude of a person who feels the need to be a submissive or slave and volunteers for such a position in the home of a person with an extreme alpha personality that feels the need to take charge of others in a more personal environment. That does not mean abusive. I hope that makes sense.

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 7:12:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Of course, you conveniently forgot about William the Conqueror's invasion, and the conquest of Wales by Edward I, who was a Norman king. far as i know tha normans assimilated into engerland after a century r two & tha state basically turned to being english again atta some point with the plantagents But the British or English aren't true Britains. With the exception of those who are primarily of Celtic ancestry, the rest are an assimilation genetic deposits consisting of Normans, Britons, Angles, Saxons, Norse, and every other culture or race that invaded Britannia after the Romans left. They have 1630 years of racial cross breeding compare to the US of having only about 413 years of crossbreeding, so that kind of makes us less prone to cultural insanity than the British... I mean think of it, only an insane culture could come up with Toad in the Hole, Steak and Kidney Pudding, Black Pudding, the spice girls, just to name a few off the top of my head. Now look here chaps, I hate to be the one to tell you but all of you dont have a fucking clue. Nothing new there but I digress. The first King as Athelstan, Grandson of the Saxon King Arthur. Athelstan unified all the English Kings at the Battle of Brunanburh. But getting back to the early Celts, they were native to here since the Iron Age and called Brythonic. The Romans called them Britons. the Brythonic language was the first on all these Isles and whats now Gaelic wasnt the original Gaelic. Just as whats now English isnt the same as Old English. These things evolve through history, but not having much of it, I can understand the confussion across the pond. Okay, what is your excuse for exporting cricket and the spice girls? The game is confusing as hell, and the spice girls made a profession acting like typical female twits with little or no common sense. I know many Brits, both in real life and on these boards, none of them act or present themselves as lacking the common sense of a average human, unlike those girls. Those two things rate up there as crimes against humanity, or at the very least an attempt to drive non Brits insane.

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 7:22:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YN Actually I don't know anything like that. Besides those few tribes in Brazil, and the Carribs, name any in Central or South America that kept slaves, let alone chattel slaves. As noted the three civilizations existing at the time the European savages first got off their ships did not keep slaves. And as confused as certain of your earlier posts have been, who can know (besides possibly yourself) what you meant? Lets see, prior to the arrival of the Europeans, the following nations took captives and if they did not torture and kill them outright, they became your basic slave. Lakota, Black foot, Cheyenne, Comanche, Apache, Cherokee, Cree, Creek, Iroquois, Seminole, just to name a few in North America, as far as south America, I would have to do some research.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 8:23:30 PM)
Save your efforts, it is taught in schools - the Caribs of Dominica (a little Caribbean island about 700 square km), and the Tupinamba of Brazil are the two you will find named. The Englishman probably has spent this time searching for information to back his wild claims, let him do the work for you. From your report it sounds like this North American Indian slavery is rather minimal, aren't/weren't there many hundreds of tribes or even more than a thousand, in North America?

Powergamz1 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 8:34:04 PM)
As jtf has been told before, words can have more than one meaning. Slavery, going back to long before Slavs were involved (as victims) as the ubiquitous fate of captured combatants or spoils of war, is not interchangeable (and certainly not an excuse for) the massive slave trade. quote: ORIGINAL: YN Save your efforts, it is taught in schools - the Caribs of Dominica (a little Caribbean island about 700 square km), and the Tupinamba of Brazil are the two you will find named. The Englishman probably has spent this time searching for information to back his wild claims, let him do the work for you. From your report it sounds like this North American Indian slavery is rather minimal, aren't/weren't there many hundreds of tribes or even more than a thousand, in North America?

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 8:36:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YN Save your efforts, it is taught in schools - the Caribs of Dominica (a little Caribbean island about 700 square km), and the Tupinamba of Brazil are the two you will find named. The Englishman probably has spent this time searching for information to back his wild claims, let him do the work for you. From your report it sounds like this North American Indian slavery is rather minimal, aren't/weren't there many hundreds of tribes or even more than a thousand, in North America? If you look at language families, there were less than fifty, if you look at cultures, depending on the anthropologist you talk to as few as five hundred as many as a thousand. Most Native American slavery was limited to captives taken in raids against neighboring villages, tribes or whoever happened to be trespassing in the tribe's hunting grounds. Those men that werent tortured for sport became slaves, and the women were slaves until some warrior or medicine man in the tribe took her as a wife, then she was treated as any other woman in the tribe.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 9:04:13 PM)
I went and searched, the United States government appear to recognize 566 different ones and the Canadian government recognizes 630 different ones, presumably some overlap the borders.

mons -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 9:25:38 PM)
Jif1961 In history there are terrors so far reaching something must be said to the Country it happen in! The act they are speaking of is the murder of hundreds if not thousands of indians talk in to a building that had opening too small run out so they had to jump into a well that many thought of was a way and not get shoot to deatd! Instead they drowned after too many jumped in one after another The Major who did this shoot the people for no reason and he shot until he was exhausted and out of bullets! The people, women and children men and boys , babies all jump into this well. the official count of the dead was never told! This is one of many things the British had to answer for! Now as to slavery, well you must had not read anything on thsi subject! Now there is article that was written about a slave owner who happen to be a sadist but she was mentally ill, not like the sadist we have here!! When a slave escape to get help he was in such terror he could not think to even go to show them where this was happening! What they found was a room where she had experimented on slaves she broke bones to rearrange them in the wrong directions, mouth were sewn shut, sexual organ were taken off and sewn in places in other places! Before they could be charge this wealthy woman aand her dentist husband left town and were never charged! But I do remember they did find them and they set up shop somewhere else! As we have crazy people now they had them even more so back in the times of slavery, if you wish to kill maim or anything you wish for, nothing would be done to you! This is something known to all who own slaves! Thomas Jefferson , made this possible by his own thoughts!= and his writing of what he thought of slaves, non human and no feeling what so ever! Yes many countries have to say sorry for the terror and stealing of national treasure which as I write many of these treasures have been return to each of the nations it was stolen from! To say sorry never ever hurts!!! Mons

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/23/2013 10:30:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mons Jif1961 In history there are terrors so far reaching something must be said to the Country it happen in! The act they are speaking of is the murder of hundreds if not thousands of indians talk in to a building that had opening too small run out so they had to jump into a well that many thought of was a way and not get shoot to deatd! Instead they drowned after too many jumped in one after another The Major who did this shoot the people for no reason and he shot until he was exhausted and out of bullets! The people, women and children men and boys , babies all jump into this well. the official count of the dead was never told! This is one of many things the British had to answer for! Now as to slavery, well you must had not read anything on thsi subject! Now there is article that was written about a slave owner who happen to be a sadist but she was mentally ill, not like the sadist we have here!! When a slave escape to get help he was in such terror he could not think to even go to show them where this was happening! What they found was a room where she had experimented on slaves she broke bones to rearrange them in the wrong directions, mouth were sewn shut, sexual organ were taken off and sewn in places in other places! Before they could be charge this wealthy woman aand her dentist husband left town and were never charged! But I do remember they did find them and they set up shop somewhere else! As we have crazy people now they had them even more so back in the times of slavery, if you wish to kill maim or anything you wish for, nothing would be done to you! This is something known to all who own slaves! Thomas Jefferson , made this possible by his own thoughts!= and his writing of what he thought of slaves, non human and no feeling what so ever! Yes many countries have to say sorry for the terror and stealing of national treasure which as I write many of these treasures have been return to each of the nations it was stolen from! To say sorry never ever hurts!!! Mons Here is where the problem lies, a diplomatic apology for the act or acts of a colonial empire is neither sincere or believed. If the apology is made, it is generations after the fact and those making the apology have no connection except in culture to those that committed the atrocity. For example, during the civil war, the people living along a road that ran from Greenville South Carolina through the North Corolina towns of Hendersonville, Asheville and Marshal were supporters of the south. All necessary supplies of staples, like sugar, flour, salt etc were stored in those towns. The civic leaders of Marshal would not allow anyone from the areas not along the road to get any of these supplies. A group of men from an area known as Shelton Laural which included a number of my ancestors got together and raided the warehouses in Marshal, taking supplies, and other materials they deemed necessary, including the blankets off the beds of two young women suffering from diphtheria. These were the daughters of the confederate army unit that was raised in Marshal and of course they died. I could extend an apology to the descendants of the family of those two girls, but it would not be sincere, since I have no connection to the act. The descendants of that Confederate army unit, which in retaliation marched into the Shelton Laural area and gathered up a number of males between the ages of 13 to 60, many of which were not involved in the raid, and executed them, could offer an apology for that act, but again, it would be lacking sincerity since they have no connection to the act. Of course there are my relatives that perished on the trail of tears, there has been no apology for that act. In fact, there has been no official apology for the various massacres committed by US troops involving Native Americans. If an apology were made, who would be the one to make it? Secondly you referenced getting away with the act, what repatriations would cover the loss of life? What value does a life of one considered inferior by those people in government in the past have in today's society? I left college before finishing my masters in history. I am not addressing this issue from a historic prospective, but of a political one. If an apology was made, it would not be believed, since the opinion of a former colonial or conquering power is influenced by the preceding generations.

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 4:17:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Yup, the alternative use of war captives for those cultures who did not practice human sacrifice. However, in all the oral histories I have heard over the years by Native Americans, I really never heard them call themselves civilized, the rest of the world claimed to be civilized. Granted that is not an excuse, but I fail to see how civilized people can condone slavery. Other than the voluntary servitude of a person who feels the need to be a submissive or slave and volunteers for such a position in the home of a person with an extreme alpha personality that feels the need to take charge of others in a more personal environment. That does not mean abusive. I hope that makes sense. Yes it makes sense, and I didnt feel it was abusive. I agree, slavery was, and still is abhorent. Servitude wasnt much better but it was just the way it was. Many in England were rallying against slavery even before the War Of Independance, ironically it was never legal to own slaves in Britain at that time. William Wilberforce and others were the leading lights and succeded in getting the Atlantci Slave trade banned in 1807, although owning slaves wasnt banned until 1833. the US banned the Atlantic slave tarde two months after we did and most of Europe followed suit within ten years. Some seem to include facts they admit are incorrect, or even suggest we control the rain.

Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 4:27:33 AM)
That's without how quaint complaining that there weren't all that many slaves among the pre colonial population of North America looks in a thread somebody's started to whine about British conduct in India, of course. Last time I checked it's still Indians living in most of India: it isn't like we wiped most of them out, stuffed the last few into reservations, then spent the next two centuries bragging about our constitutionally protected declaration of universal human rights, after all...

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:00:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Try again. Actually read a history book instead of cherry picking factoids. The inhabitants of that rock started crowning kings and killing other people in the name of the Crown in 871AD. They formalized that into empire building in 1066, and the current Crown traces it's domain via coat of arms back to Henry C. in 1153. So the trail of bodies and stolen lands that built the Anglo/British/English/UK/GB/Commonwealth goes back at least 10 centuries. For the record, denying that holocaust by playing word and number games, is no better than using the same tricks to deny the Armenian holocaust, or the Shoah. You still have a major problem telling the difference between atrocity and famine. You are also laughably way off about when Kings and Queens first started being crowned in Great Britain. You are also well off in an earlier post about everyone in Britain benefitting from the Empire, the poor certainly didnt. Your anti monarchist stance is starting to smell a bit like Marxism but while the class studied Karl, you seemed to have been reading Groucho.

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:15:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead That's without how quaint complaining that there weren't all that many slaves among the pre colonial population of North America looks in a thread somebody's started to whine about British conduct in India, of course. Last time I checked it's still Indians living in most of India: it isn't like we wiped most of them out, stuffed the last few into reservations, then spent the next two centuries bragging about our constitutionally protected declaration of universal human rights, after all... Uh, I think I made it clear, the only two things England should apologize for is exporting cricket and the spice girls.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:22:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead That's without how quaint complaining that there weren't all that many slaves among the pre colonial population of North America looks in a thread somebody's started to whine about British conduct in India, of course. Last time I checked it's still Indians living in most of India: it isn't like we wiped most of them out, stuffed the last few into reservations, then spent the next two centuries bragging about our constitutionally protected declaration of universal human rights, after all... Since you mention your conquistadores accomplishments in the English Americas favorably in this inventory, how many Indians did English kill in North America? The Spaniards manage to kill 19 of 20, did English do as well at this competition or were you second tier conquistadores? The Spaniards likely have you beat numerically in the American competition, admittedly they had three large civilizations to pillage and slaughter while the poor English were handicapped by having to chase down relatively smaller tribes of hunter gatherers who had little to rob them of.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:30:26 AM)
If the English made an apology to your tribe for the crimes they committed from the 1600s onward what would it mean?

jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:33:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YN If the English made an apology to your tribe for the crimes they committed from the 1600s onward what would it mean? Nothing unless the through in an apologize for the crimes against humanity for exporting cricket and the spice girls, and giving me Pippa Middleton as a sex slave.

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:42:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YN quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead That's without how quaint complaining that there weren't all that many slaves among the pre colonial population of North America looks in a thread somebody's started to whine about British conduct in India, of course. Last time I checked it's still Indians living in most of India: it isn't like we wiped most of them out, stuffed the last few into reservations, then spent the next two centuries bragging about our constitutionally protected declaration of universal human rights, after all... Since you mention your conquistadores accomplishments in the English Americas favorably in this inventory, how many Indians did English kill in North America? The Spaniards manage to kill 19 of 20, did English do as well at this competition or were you second tier conquistadores? The Spaniards likely have you beat numerically in the American competition, admittedly they had three large civilizations to pillage and slaughter while the poor English were handicapped by having to chase down relatively smaller tribes of hunter gatherers who had little to rob them of. Whoosh as Moonheads point flys straight over your head.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:45:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: YN If the English made an apology to your tribe for the crimes they committed from the 1600s onward what would it mean? Nothing unless the through in an apologize for the crimes against humanity for exporting cricket and the spice girls, and giving me Pippa Middleton as a sex slave. What about the rest of your tribe, aren't they entitled to similar tokens of contrition?

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 5:56:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: YN quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead That's without how quaint complaining that there weren't all that many slaves among the pre colonial population of North America looks in a thread somebody's started to whine about British conduct in India, of course. Last time I checked it's still Indians living in most of India: it isn't like we wiped most of them out, stuffed the last few into reservations, then spent the next two centuries bragging about our constitutionally protected declaration of universal human rights, after all... Since you mention your conquistadores accomplishments in the English Americas favorably in this inventory, how many Indians did English kill in North America? The Spaniards manage to kill 19 of 20, did English do as well at this competition or were you second tier conquistadores? The Spaniards likely have you beat numerically in the American competition, admittedly they had three large civilizations to pillage and slaughter while the poor English were handicapped by having to chase down relatively smaller tribes of hunter gatherers who had little to rob them of. Whoosh as Moonheads point flys straight over your head. Do you think English had nothing to do with the North American holocaust? I would think you would regard your conquest of North America and the extermination of the natives as one of the glories of the English empire. If Moonhead wants to discuss the favorable treatment India received in only starving or killing many scores of millions of them and while robbing them, as opposed to what was done by England in North America, certainly he can demonstrate the type of outrages England could have committed if the treated them in a similar manner to how the English treated the poor natives of North America, so we can judge the mercy and beneficence shown India and thus illustrating which they should be grateful for.

Lucylastic -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/24/2013 6:13:09 AM)
theres your disconnect.... No one here has demonstrated any glory over the atrocities committed in English history Ya see, history cant be changed... the english, the french, the chinese, the spanish, the dutch, the germans, the russians, the italians, ad nauseam, wether for religious or empire "building" is not something we can change, or deny. And no one has... you keep saying it, but you havent proven yourself. youve done a fine job of obfuscating and given really LOUSY assumptions, I cant change the nose on my face, I cant change bloody history, OR peoples "feelings" about their ancestors. You wouldnt accept any apology, or attempt at one. the hole in your heart, the hate, is YOUR problem, not every englishpersons. Just keep hating on people for something they had no control over...thats the way to make things better in this world... You cant help your heritage, in the same way I cant help mine.

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