RE: UK apology for India massacre?

RE: UK apology for India massacre? (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 11:15:12 AM)
My own suspicion is that a line somebody neither understands nor wishes to understand is being parroted in order to take a moral high ground with nothing to sustain it. (In other words: business as usual...)

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 11:25:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead My own suspicion is that a line somebody neither understands nor wishes to understand is being parroted in order to take a moral high ground with nothing to sustain it. (In other words: business as usual...) Agreed. Even the straw clutching comment that the British Colonies only took 20% 0f the slaves is a poor attempt at playing with figures. I seem to recall there were plantations in all the French and Spanish States as well, which kind of bumps up the figures.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 11:41:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern No Brit I have talked to is very proud of their colonial past. seems to me this isnt about tha brits celebrating the empire but getting pissed when reminded of tha past. seems tha famous british restraint has also gone tha way of the empire. [8\|]

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 11:49:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: No Brit I have talked to is very proud of their colonial past. seems to me this isnt about tha brits celebrating the empire but getting pissed when reminded of tha past. seems tha famous british restraint has also gone tha way of the empire. [8\|] Plenty of restraint from me..... Blame the TOS. None of you ever seem to come back with any actual facts when challenged.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 11:58:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: No Brit I have talked to is very proud of their colonial past. seems to me this isnt about tha brits celebrating the empire but getting pissed when reminded of tha past. seems tha famous british restraint has also gone tha way of the empire. [8\|] Plenty of restraint from me..... Blame the TOS. None of you ever seem to come back with any actual facts when challenged. so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|]

Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:01:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|] This is a prime example of what I mean. Do you actually know how many Indians foought alongside our troops in WW2, let alone how many fought for Hitler. [8\|] Ironic you used this smiley huh.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:09:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|] This is a prime example of what I mean. Do you actually know how many Indians foought alongside our troops in WW2, let alone how many fought for Hitler. [8\|] Ironic you used this smiley huh. nope talking bout hitlers popularity today. he's an icon. plus didnt a lotta indian pows switch to tha japs & germans?

Powergamz1 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:14:31 PM)
quote: "None of you ever seem to come back with any actual facts when challenged." Except that of course, the actual facts have been thoroughly documented, photographed, verified, etc. The millions of deaths did occur. They were carried out by loyal servants of the Crown, in order to swell the coffers even more. The current refusal to even discuss returning stolen national treasures is all over the media. And this has been been posted here, and the sources linked to. Ignoring the atrocities and then making sure that we all know that the classic gloating denier game is being played with a 'Nod, nod, wink, wink' of 'no actual facts', speaks for itself. Business as usual indeed.

Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|] This is a prime example of what I mean. Do you actually know how many Indians foought alongside our troops in WW2, let alone how many fought for Hitler. [8\|] Ironic you used this smiley huh. nope talking bout hitlers popularity today. he's an icon. plus didnt a lotta indian pows switch to tha japs & germans? No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)]

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:25:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|] This is a prime example of what I mean. Do you actually know how many Indians foought alongside our troops in WW2, let alone how many fought for Hitler. [8\|] Ironic you used this smiley huh. nope talking bout hitlers popularity today. he's an icon. plus didnt a lotta indian pows switch to tha japs & germans? No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)] talking bout many thousands of indian pows that switched sides in tha war maybe after being cheated over independance after ww1 http://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j37/indians.asp you thinking bout your favourite man mr sorebutt? [;)]

Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:26:34 PM)
You'll find ww1 and ww2 were two different wars, sweetie: the numbering's a clue.

Phoenixpower -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:29:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: ORIGINAL: egern No Brit I have talked to is very proud of their colonial past. seems to me this isnt about tha brits celebrating the empire but getting pissed when reminded of tha past. seems tha famous british restraint has also gone tha way of the empire. [8\|] lol, maybe that's why I heard during my 7 years in the UK quite often "but your lot started the war!!!" (not a topic I ever started, but it came often out of nowhere[8\|])...[;)]

Powergamz1 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:32:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)] Ho Chi Minh, hmmm? Now there's a name from the past. Wasn't he the guy who was democratically elected President at some point after the Vichy French who collaborated with the Axis fled Vietnam post WWII? And wasn't that in the same free democratic nation that England sent troops to occupy (1945) so that France could have their old colony back in the same manner that England would later try in Kenya, etc? One more time, do the math. A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet isn't going to be swept under the rug by pointing fingers elsewhere, and playing these coy denier games. *ETA* Apparently 'empire' isnt acceptable to certain admirers of the crown as they deny the atrocities that paid for their comfortable lives to this very day. I'd use 'Curtmantlists', but that might be lost on some.

Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:36:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)] Ho Chi Minh, hmmm? Now there's a name from the past. Wasn't he the guy who was democratically elected President at some point after the Vichy French who collaborated with the Axis fled Vietnam post WWII? And wasn't that in the same free democratic nation that England sent troops to occupy (1945) so that France could have their old colony back in the same manner that England would later try in Kenya, etc? One more time, do the math. A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet isn't going to be swept under the rug by pointing fingers elsewhere, and playing these coy denier games. The British Empire didn't exist a thousand years ago. Your "math" appears even more faulty than usual in this case.

Powergamz1 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 12:41:52 PM)
You seem quite proud of finding sophomoric ways to defend these atrocities... you know, the classic denier bag of tricks I predicted a couple of posts ago? . quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)] Ho Chi Minh, hmmm? Now there's a name from the past. Wasn't he the guy who was democratically elected President at some point after the Vichy French who collaborated with the Axis fled Vietnam post WWII? And wasn't that in the same free democratic nation that England sent troops to occupy (1945) so that France could have their old colony back in the same manner that England would later try in Kenya, etc? One more time, do the math. A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet isn't going to be swept under the rug by pointing fingers elsewhere, and playing these coy denier games. The British Empire didn't exist a thousand years ago. Your "math" appears even more faulty than usual in this case.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 1:27:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: YN quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic no no no, this topic is about the UK being the root of all evil, let them rant.... bless their hearts No country is without fault but nothing the UK has done compares with Pol Pot, Hitler, or for that matter the horrors of the French revolution. Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named. About 10 million, apparently, many of whom were sold in Amerika. No use pointing fingers at each other. 10-15 million dead Africans is the widely accepted range for the casualties of the African slave trade, though all making the assessments say it could be higher. As many and quite likely more died in the process as were successfully delivered as slaves. The most documented number stands at about 11 million, but those making that assessment also noted they could not calculate how many died in Africa during the slave raids, and judging by what documentation survived many raids killed more Africans then they captured. The English fought a war with Spain called the Guerra del Asiento in Spanish and the War of Jenkins Ear by them so to continually have the right to provide unlimited amounts of slaves to the Spanish and Portuguese colonies. Upon this establishment incredibly large numbers of Africans were shipped to the Americas and additionally the English took slaves during raids from among the Indians of Central America and North and South American as well. While slavery in the United States and Canada is more likely in the minds of the North Americans, and the slavery among the islands of the Caribbean is more familiar to English the greater numbers of slaves were shipped to the lethal zones of South America, Brasil, Venezuela, Colombia especial were giant death camps.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 1:37:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 The British colonies that later became America received only 20% of the slaves that made England and Portugal wealthier. The for profit prisons were developed in England, and the money from American prison labor goes to multinational investors. Those are the facts. Spinning the facts, and then hiding behind 'So you are saying it it OK because its been that way?' is absurdist sophistry... it offers no solutions, and makes the problem worse because it carries water for it. As far as pointing fingers, that contest has already been won by an insurmountable difference. As pointed out earlier, do the math, it would be impossible for any country to touch the record of atrocities and exploitation set by the old and neo colonial empires. So the topic, from the OP article, is the current set of denier games being played by those whose comfortable position in life wouldn't be possible without the past they so ferverently try to dismiss. 'No Returnism!!'?? Really? 'That was a century ago'? Seriously? 'It was someone else's fault'... [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: YN quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic no no no, this topic is about the UK being the root of all evil, let them rant.... bless their hearts No country is without fault but nothing the UK has done compares with Pol Pot, Hitler, or for that matter the horrors of the French revolution. Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named. About 10 million, apparently, many of whom were sold in Amerika. No use pointing fingers at each other. None might claim the Portuguese nor the Spaniards did not give the English a good fight for the title of the most viscous and barbaric conquistadores. The Dutch were not light of weight either, even the English and Spaniards thought their conduct toward the slaves and Indians was outrageous, and if the Dutch had achieved greater territory they would have scored far better on the scale of savagery. France seems to be the losers in this contest, not that they were any particular models for civilized conduct.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 1:40:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh quote: No Brit I have talked to is very proud of their colonial past. seems to me this isnt about tha brits celebrating the empire but getting pissed when reminded of tha past. seems tha famous british restraint has also gone tha way of the empire. [8\|] Plenty of restraint from me..... Blame the TOS. None of you ever seem to come back with any actual facts when challenged. "holocaust denier" Please melt down again. The last trantrum was fun to watch.

Moonhead -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 1:41:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 You seem quite proud of finding sophomoric ways to defend these atrocities... you know, the classic denier bag of tricks I predicted a couple of posts ago? . quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead No. There were never more than a couple of hundred men in the Free Corps for the whole of WW2, and most of those were from the British isles rather than the colonies. Perhaps you're thinking of all those American Vietnam era POWs who made propaganda broadcasts for Ho Chi Minh? [;)] Ho Chi Minh, hmmm? Now there's a name from the past. Wasn't he the guy who was democratically elected President at some point after the Vichy French who collaborated with the Axis fled Vietnam post WWII? And wasn't that in the same free democratic nation that England sent troops to occupy (1945) so that France could have their old colony back in the same manner that England would later try in Kenya, etc? One more time, do the math. A thousand years of the Empire raping the planet isn't going to be swept under the rug by pointing fingers elsewhere, and playing these coy denier games. The British Empire didn't exist a thousand years ago. Your "math" appears even more faulty than usual in this case. Pointing out that your claiming atrocities that happened over seven hundred years before the British Empire came into being is ludicrous hyperbole is hardly sophomoric denial. That could be far more handily applied to you suggesting the existence of schrodinger atrocities that you can't be bothered to name, in fact.

YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/22/2013 1:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh so tha indians liking mr hitler nearly as much as mr ghandi has got nothing to do with tha raj?? [8\|] This is a prime example of what I mean. Do you actually know how many Indians foought alongside our troops in WW2, let alone how many fought for Hitler. [8\|] Ironic you used this smiley huh. Most the world knows how many troops from India fought on the "other side" for Indian independence during WW2. It is the reason the English never really got out of India during much of the fighting against Japan, it took most of a million men to keep India from revolting. And it is the reason why, after the war, English granted Gandhi his wish, for, after seeing the trouble it took to secure Vietnam for the French, and Indonesia for the Dutch, England decided the casualty count to keep India and Burma as colonies would be politically unacceptable.

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