RE: UK apology for India massacre? (Full Version)

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YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 11:20:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named.


More bullshit not subtantiated by facts.



Pretend such facts are racist in nature, and demonstrates a race hatred of English people, that appears to be the current fashion, and is likely to be more effective then being a "holocaust denier."





BamaD -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 11:25:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
As for slave farms, since most farm labor is done by migrant farm workers who for the most part are illegals, and thus will work for slave wages, yes there is a problem.

Now on the point of inmate labor. What the hell is the problem? There have been work gangs in the prison system for years. There have been prison industries for years. Granted they are not paid the same wage as the rest of the country but so what?

What would you prefer, a prison inmate sitting in his cell doing nothing? They have no expenses except for commissary privileges that they have to pay for. Prison is for punishment after all.

Illegals have the choice to work for whoever they want to and negotiate the best rate they can, they can also leave and go back to their home country.. so no, i dont see them as working for slave wages cuz they have choices that inmates simply dont have.. I will say I am not talking about those trapped in human trafficking who are also slaves, but forced into that illegally, unlike inmates which are legal slaves..

Inmates should have a choice to work or not and they should be paid minimum wages, just as anyone else is entitled to legally.. its not the 1800's anymore after all..

And if they arent working for China-like "wages" then those same corps would be forced to give non-incarcerated Americans (like you) that work at decent wages instead..

While your at it give the right to vote and get rid of those silly travel restrictions.




BamaD -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 11:28:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Do the math... you can't go back far enough with the US, because we don't have the centuries behind us that the Brits do. All of the American atrocities since 1776 combined don't come anywhere close to that.

Do the math, look at the millions of deaths from Bengal alone, and add in the slave trade, WWII, the famines in China after the Opium Wars, Africa, Asia, terra nullius, the Middle East et al...

Not just vaguely connected to, but directly conducted or manipulated by those 'whose mail'd hand keeps the keys of such teeming destinies'

Basically the rape of the whole planet for a thousand years.

And like many rapists, still in denial, and still blaming it all on the ungrateful victims.


Another baseless rant based in ignorance and short on facts. Dont you even know how to Google ?


To the true bigot facts are of no concern




BamaD -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 11:30:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

It is not mandatory to work in prison, it is a privilege to be earned, unlike some countries.

not mandatory? a privilege? really? working for 23 cents/hr? That's how you justify it???

"According to CNN Money, the U.S. highly skilled and well-paid “aerospace workforce has shrunk by 40 percent in the past 20 years."
"In 1980, when Ronald Reagan became president, there were 400,000 prisoners in the U.S. Today the number exceeds 2.3 million.
The U.S. imprisons more people per capita than any country in the world. With less than 5 percent of the world population, the U.S. imprisons more than 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the world."

"State prisons that used forced prison labor in plantations, laundries and highway chain gangs increasingly seek to sell prison labor to corporations trolling the globe in search of the cheapest possible labor.
In California, as in many states, prisoners who refuse to work are moved to disciplinary housing and lose canteen privileges as well as “good time” credit, which slices hard time off their sentences.
Systematic abuse, beatings, prolonged isolation and sensory deprivation, and lack of medical care make U.S. prison conditions among the worst in the world. Ironically, working under grueling conditions for pennies an hour is treated as a “perk” for good behavior.
In December, Georgia inmates went on strike and refused to leave their cells at six prisons for more than a week. In one of the largest prison protests in U.S. history, prisoners spoke of being forced to work seven days a week for no pay. Prisoners were beaten if they refused to work."

"Prison labor — with no union protection, overtime pay, vacation days, pensions, benefits, health and safety protection, or Social Security withholding
The prison work is often dangerous, toxic and unprotected. At FCC Victorville, a federal prison located at an old U.S. airbase, prisoners clean, overhaul and reassemble tanks and military vehicles returned from combat and coated in toxic spent ammunition, depleted uranium dust and chemicals."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pentagon-and-slave-labor-in-u-s-prisons/25376



Actually, the report you quoted is not exactly true. Victorville does not service tanks or armored vehicles, those are dealt with at either private contractors or DOD facilities in Alabama.

quote:

Rebuild a Few Components or the Entire Vehicle

FCC Victorville specializes in the repair and rebuild of vehicles and vehicle components for fork lifts, HMMWVs, semi-trailer and air conditioning skids.

Fork Lifts: complete rebuild under SLEP Service Life Extension Program. Fork Lifts rebuilt include Yale, Hyster, Case, Drexel,Wiggins, Liftking, Caterpillar, Int. Harvester covering:

diesel, gasoline, propane and electric
booms, tool carriers and cargo container handlers
2WD, 4WD and shipboard; lift capacities from 1,500 to 20,000 pounds

HMMWV: complete tear down and rebuild of all models, including:

Shelter Carrier,Ambulance,Troop Carrier and Truck

Rebuilt Vehicle Components, including:

differentials, brakes, radiators, automatic transmissions, transfer cases, power steering pumps, steering gearboxes

Semi-trailer rebuilding, including: replacement of deck, frame repair, rewiring, and repainting
Air conditioning skids: strip, repair, and repaint

source


Now, under DoD regulations, all military vehicles are decontaminated prior to shipment back to the US. Has something to do with those pesky Hazardous Materials handling regulations.

As for the pay, as I stated, prisons are established for the purpose of punishment. The prisoners do not have to pay for room, food, health care, or anything else that is necessary for reasonable living.

There are some countries that do not pay prisoners to work.

Of course, once more the US is the evil country.

My personal opinion, is that prisoners committed a crime that sent them to prison, and since the discontinuation of the "hard Labor" sentence, this is the next best thing. Many of those "mistreated and exploited" prisoners are rapists, child abusers, child molesters, and violent criminals. Some of those individuals, in my opinion, should be sent to a facility where there are no comforts, sorta like Devil's Island, or executed the day they arrive at the prison.

As for those "white collar" criminals that are sentenced to federal or state prisons, they screwed people over to make money, why should they make money in prison?

See my previos post




Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:01:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named.


More bullshit not subtantiated by facts.



Pretend such facts are racist in nature, and demonstrates a race hatred of English people, that appears to be the current fashion, and is likely to be more effective then being a "holocaust denier."




How about just posting actual facts we can debate, thats what I tend to do........Thats if you actually have any.




jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:02:24 PM)

quote:

13th Amendment
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Prisons are for punishment, period.




Nosathro -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:06:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

13th Amendment
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


Prisons are for punishment, period.


I worked at the Hotel California....aka California Rehabiliation Center...now that is punishment.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:13:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pentagon-and-slave-labor-in-u-s-prisons/25376

aint global research tha tin foil site lefties love? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca
quote:

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda.

The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi, reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader.





jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:16:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pentagon-and-slave-labor-in-u-s-prisons/25376

aint global research tha tin foil site lefties love? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca
quote:

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda.

The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi, reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader.





I was not going to go there yet. I like to let people hang themselves.




tj444 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:18:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Now, under DoD regulations, all military vehicles are decontaminated prior to shipment back to the US. Has something to do with those pesky Hazardous Materials handling regulations.

As for the pay, as I stated, prisons are established for the purpose of punishment. The prisoners do not have to pay for room, food, health care, or anything else that is necessary for reasonable living.

There are some countries that do not pay prisoners to work.

Of course, once more the US is the evil country.

My personal opinion, is that prisoners committed a crime that sent them to prison, and since the discontinuation of the "hard Labor" sentence, this is the next best thing. Many of those "mistreated and exploited" prisoners are rapists, child abusers, child molesters, and violent criminals. Some of those individuals, in my opinion, should be sent to a facility where there are no comforts, sorta like Devil's Island, or executed the day they arrive at the prison.

As for those "white collar" criminals that are sentenced to federal or state prisons, they screwed people over to make money, why should they make money in prison?

You claim that its a prisoners choice to work or not, the article says otherwise.. now you backtrack and say prison is punishment.. except that there are people in some prisons that are convicted to long terms for fairly minor offenses.. like using pot, some for medical purposes or selling pot seeds, immigrants illegally in the US, activists, etc.. There are lots of people that should not be in jail at all so imo, forcing prisoners to be slave labor is wrong.. but then I dont agree with the death penalty either.. in 20 years your inmates have gone from 400,000 to 2.3 million, with the US having 25% of the worlds prisoners, doesnt that tell you something?.. no, I guess not, which is why when those inmates come out, they come out even worse than they went in..

lol I would not consider 23 cents/hour to be "making money".. and I doubt anyone else does either, except those greedy corps that profit from slave prison labor.. Prison labor is big business now.. its not about punishment or rehabilitation, its about US corps making more money.. and its easier than outsourcing to China..




YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:25:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named.


More bullshit not subtantiated by facts.



Pretend such facts are racist in nature, and demonstrates a race hatred of English people, that appears to be the current fashion, and is likely to be more effective then being a "holocaust denier."




How about just posting actual facts we can debate, thats what I tend to do........Thats if you actually have any.



Your blanket denial of England's role in the Atlantic slave trade, from start to finish and from top to bottom, is itself a fact that needs debating, perhaps you might start a "holocaust denial" thread on that topic.

But since agents of your government have posted similar insincere apologies, as those made to India, to the descendants of these slaves, you need to convince your own government these things did not occur, before you try convincing anyone else.

What other "facts" do you wish to "debate" besides Cameron, his/England's apology, or the conduct in India by the English which was the seed of the matter.




tj444 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 12:42:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pentagon-and-slave-labor-in-u-s-prisons/25376

aint global research tha tin foil site lefties love? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca
quote:

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda.

The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi, reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader.



I was not going to go there yet. I like to let people hang themselves.

Is this one more acceptable for ya? google for profit prison slavery gets 3,440,00 results.. are you saying they are all wrong? You dont get it, you are paying thru your taxes to house prisoners, many that shouldnt even be in jail and turning a blind eye to prisoners forced into slavery, giving these upstanding US corps huge profits, they are the only winners here..

"This routine traffic stop represents the front end of an increasingly lucrative commercial enterprise: the business of incarcerating immigrant detainees, the fastest-growing segment of the American prison population. The three men loaded into the van offer fresh profit opportunities for the nation's swiftly expanding private prison industry, which has in recent years captured the bulk of this commerce through federal contracts. By filling its cells with undocumented immigrants caught in the web of increased border security, the industry has seen its revenues swell at taxpayer expense.

The two largest for-profit prison companies, Corrections Corporation of America and The GEO Group, Inc., have more than doubled their revenues from the immigrant detention business since 2005, according to securities filings.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/private-prisons-immigration-federal-law-enforcement_n_1569219.html




jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 1:50:01 PM)

For one thing, your source is a known for using conspiracy theories and unreliable sources.

For another thing, if it were up to me, the "hard labor" sentencing would be on the books, with no pay.

As for people in prison on drug charges, it is simple, I do not agree with the use of illegal drugs, pot is still illegal under federal law, and until that changes, then the people in states where it is legal are still breaking federal law. Break the law, go to prison. Simple concept.

You see, I have worked in law enforcement. When you respond to call about a kid who od'd on some drug that was sold to him by a dealer that did not give a shit, or you find out about a pot field because some hiker found a booby trap and was injured, you tend to have very little compassion for the people involved.

As it stands now, criminals have more rights than the victims. Prisoners have better living conditions than they really deserve, IMO.

I would love to see you saying this crap after someone or yourself is the victim of a crime.

If you cant tell, I dont care what you are saying about prisoners working for less than a dollar an hour. I dont think they should be paid at all.




Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 3:39:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Your blanket denial of England's role in the Atlantic slave trade, from start to finish and from top to bottom, is itself a fact that needs debating, perhaps you might start a "holocaust denial" thread on that topic.

But since agents of your government have posted similar insincere apologies, as those made to India, to the descendants of these slaves, you need to convince your own government these things did not occur, before you try convincing anyone else.

What other "facts" do you wish to "debate" besides Cameron, his/England's apology, or the conduct in India by the English which was the seed of the matter.


Okay sock, lets start with the first sentence. I have never ever denied the holocaust, so lets not even go there unless you want to be a prick.

If you were capable of doing a search, you would also find I have never denied English involvement in the abhorent slave tried, infact I have absolutely condemned it.

Now your second sentence. WTF do you mean by "India and the descendens of these slave". Do you think India and The West Indies are the same fucking place ?

As for Cameron, I already showed my disdain for him in this very thread.

So other than being a sock and trolling, your points make no sense.






YN -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:02:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If you were capable of doing a search, you would also find I have never denied English involvement in the abhorent slave tried, infact I have absolutely condemned it.



I don't need to search further then your posts in this thread, this certainly sounds like a denial to me


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named.


More bullshit not subtantiated by facts.



And otherwise your inability to either see commas or use them in construing sentences nor your disdain for the Prime Minister you claim you voted for are relevant to me.




Politesub53 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:21:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If you were capable of doing a search, you would also find I have never denied English involvement in the abhorent slave tried, infact I have absolutely condemned it.



I don't need to search further then your posts in this thread, this certainly sounds like a denial to me


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Even the Spaniards or the Portuguese. easily outdid Pol Pot, The Nazis, and the French, and they were not as accomplished at robbery, rape and murder as the English. More Africans died aboard English slave ships alone then the sum of those you named.


More bullshit not subtantiated by facts.



And otherwise your inability to either see commas or use them in construing sentences nor your disdain for the Prime Minister you claim you voted for are relevant to me.



First you suggest I gave you some sort of list, I didnt.

Second you knock my use of commas, it isnt my fault you are not educated enough to follow a simple sentence.

Lets try and unravel your diatribe. You are claiming the list of Spain, France Portugal, Pol Pot, The Nazis combined, were responsible for less deaths than the English......... If so you are seriously deluded or stupider than I thought.




tj444 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:26:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
For one thing, your source is a known for using conspiracy theories and unreliable sources.

For another thing, if it were up to me, the "hard labor" sentencing would be on the books, with no pay.

As for people in prison on drug charges, it is simple, I do not agree with the use of illegal drugs, pot is still illegal under federal law, and until that changes, then the people in states where it is legal are still breaking federal law. Break the law, go to prison. Simple concept.

You see, I have worked in law enforcement. When you respond to call about a kid who od'd on some drug that was sold to him by a dealer that did not give a shit, or you find out about a pot field because some hiker found a booby trap and was injured, you tend to have very little compassion for the people involved.

As it stands now, criminals have more rights than the victims. Prisoners have better living conditions than they really deserve, IMO.

I would love to see you saying this crap after someone or yourself is the victim of a crime.

If you cant tell, I dont care what you are saying about prisoners working for less than a dollar an hour. I dont think they should be paid at all.

there are various other sources of the same info and criticisms (by your fellow Americans) of the prison system in the US.. and as well as the criminalization of pot, the forfiture laws, etc.. and its not unheard of cops breaking the law themselves, all the way up to murder..

FYI, I have been a victim of crime, I just refuse to play the victim or let it turn me into a nutbar vigilante.. I also dont believe in punishing beyond the level of the crime.. Probably some big reasons why I would not make a good American.. [:D]




Powergamz1 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:29:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444]
As far as I am aware no inmates are forced to work in Canada, as they are in the US.. and as far as I know they are paid real wages, not the China-like wages the US pays their forced labor inmates..



'As far as you are aware' only extends to the point at which you are willing to open your eyes.

America's incarceration rate is obscene.

The conditions for prisoners compared to other superpowers are mild at best. Some prison labor produces the food etc. that the inmates consume (as at Angola) and in other places *multinational corporations* like GEO Group use the United Kingdom's 'for profit prison' Wold model.

Unlike the Commonwealth, where convicts can be beaten into the hospital as a display of public punishment, such incidents in the US are covert, because they result in lawsuits and arrests.


And just for your personal edification, this is Shinola [image]http://www.phrases.org.uk/images/shinola.jpg[/image]

And *this* is slavery: http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/UN-says-human-trafficking-found-in-118-countries-4273045.php








tj444 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:47:12 PM)

I have been well aware of what goes on with human trafficking for at least 10 years, I dont need the likes of you to point out to me what I already know..

Just cuz there are countries worse than the US doesnt mean the US is doing good.. If there are countries that pollute more than the US does that mean the US shouldnt bother trying to reduce the amount it pollutes???




jlf1961 -> RE: UK apology for India massacre? (2/21/2013 4:55:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

there are various other sources of the same info and criticisms (by your fellow Americans) of the prison system in the US.. and as well as the criminalization of pot, the forfiture laws, etc.. and its not unheard of cops breaking the law themselves, all the way up to murder..

FYI, I have been a victim of crime, I just refuse to play the victim or let it turn me into a nutbar vigilante.. I also dont believe in punishing beyond the level of the crime.. Probably some big reasons why I would not make a good American.. [:D]



Look, I know there are people in the US that are critical of the prison system. Most of them would prefer that prisoners are treated like kings or something. I dont agree with them.

Like I said, prisoners have more rights than the victims. The so-called reformers seem to think that a criminal had a "hard" life, never had a chance other than crime, was abused, or whatever. Personally, I think they are either too stupid to realize that criminals went into crime for the fast buck, or they thought the world owed them something.

Criminals had the same chances as anyone else to achieve something better than they had. They choose to turn to crime, no one forced them to.

As for the criminalization of marijuana, I suggest you google what countries have it legal... Got news for you, there isnt one. There are countries that tolerate it better.

When the Federal government legalizes it fine, but until then, it remains illegal. And no matter what states choose to ignore the Federal law, the DEA is going to enforce the drug laws. State Law cannot supersede Federal law.

As for prison reform, if they are going to make it tougher, great. If they want to treat prisoners like spoiled kids, then they need to get real.

Oh, to really piss in your wheaties, I support capital punishment for rapists, child molesters, pedophiles, and murderers. Forget the life in prison bullshit, or 25 to life or any other bullshit. If the dna evidence or video or something ironclad proving they committed the crime, then put them out of the rest of our misery.




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