quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Lol Rich

I don't know if that is a, "you can laugh, or you can scream, and it's healthier to laugh," Lol, Level, or more in the vein of disbelief, but speaking as someone who has started more than a few threads on the subject, I'm not kidding.

I've probably commented 100 times or more (including in threads that are no longer in the public access areas of the site) that is is right and proper that a nation such as ours should have a safety net, but that it should never be allowed to become a hammock.

One of them had a link to a really excellent, well written, article on the impact our poverty maintenance programs have had. Ignore the title of the piece, because it really isn't much about the President at all. It's a longish read, but I found it worth the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/magazine/obama-poverty.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Note the little story at the beginning, about teenagers sitting in the car with their tax-payer funded mentor who is supposed to help them develop the skills to rise out of poverty, complaining about how cold it is in their house because of a hole in the front window, and that it occurs to none of them to get some cardboard or grocery store bags, and cover the damn hole. Note at the end of the story, when the teenage boy is being given a plaque for having a little job, and not deserting the two children he has sired, that there is still a hole in his window, but it is not a big deal because it is summer.

I'm happy to have the conversation, if there is one to be had, but you'll just have to forgive me if I assume the gathering gaggle will, as so many times before, be allowed to shit all over the attempt, and get what they want from their efforts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


My lol was in the "it's better to laugh" vein.

That's an interesting Times' article; I'm about a quarter through it. So far, it's doing a fine job of showing what a clusterfuck trying to fix our society is...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Wouldn't you spend more time arguing among yourselves than actually fixing anything?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

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ORIGINAL: Baroana

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
No,I'm asking who committed fraud ,as implied by LP's post,lol....I made no assertions at all

Not you, the OP. I'll edit.

I think a decent society helps those that GENUINELY need it. I think we should fo a far better job of culling those that abuse the system, and helping others to transition off of the system.
I do think it's theft to take money I earned, and give it to someone I don't know, or to spend it on something I don't agree with, but I also believe that it's neccessary. As appealing as libertarianism may be to me, I can't embrace an ideology that would entail "to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs", and know that those eggs include innocent human beings.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Welfare is good, but welfare state is bad. When the number of people needing welfare reaches certain limit the country goes down the toilet if the trend is not reversed. Without any doubt the US has serious problems in this area. Adding to the disaster is the fact welfare state is supported by government borrowing.

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ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
Welfare is good, but welfare state is bad. When the number of people needing welfare reaches certain limit the country goes down the toilet if the trend is not reversed. Without any doubt the US has serious problems in this area. Adding to the disaster is the fact welfare state is supported by government borrowing.

Really.....
Do you have some stats to back that up?
We are not going down any toilet.
Griping over someone buying a Snikers with foodstamps while Exxon gets millions in welfare(our tax dollars) is just plain stupid.
The "welfare state" is a myth....designed to scare folks into ditching our social safety net.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
Welfare is good, but welfare state is bad. When the number of people needing welfare reaches certain limit the country goes down the toilet if the trend is not reversed. Without any doubt the US has serious problems in this area. Adding to the disaster is the fact welfare state is supported by government borrowing.

Really.....
Do you have some stats to back that up?
We are not going down any toilet.
Griping over someone buying a Snikers with foodstamps while Exxon gets millions in welfare(our tax dollars) is just plain stupid.
The "welfare state" is a myth....designed to scare folks into ditching our social safety net.

So, are you only against Big Oil getting the tax credits that all businesses get, or against tax credits that all businesses get, in general?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow
Welfare is good, but welfare state is bad. When the number of people needing welfare reaches certain limit the country goes down the toilet if the trend is not reversed. Without any doubt the US has serious problems in this area. Adding to the disaster is the fact welfare state is supported by government borrowing.

Really.....
Do you have some stats to back that up?
We are not going down any toilet.
Griping over someone buying a Snikers with foodstamps while Exxon gets millions in welfare(our tax dollars) is just plain stupid.
The "welfare state" is a myth....designed to scare folks into ditching our social safety net.

So, are you only against Big Oil getting the tax credits that all businesses get, or against tax credits that all businesses get, in general?

Actually, I have a problem with the corporate tax laws to begin with, some of these multibillion dollar companies dont pay anything in taxes, or just a bare minimum compared to total profit. That in my opinion is Corporate welfare.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually, I have a problem with the corporate tax laws to begin with, some of these multibillion dollar companies dont pay anything in taxes, or just a bare minimum compared to total profit. That in my opinion is Corporate welfare.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What is your solution? To only partially remove loopholes and carve-outs? To remove all loopholes? create a Corporate AMT?

IMO, a Corporation that has zero tax liability is cheating the system if that Corporation has domestic profit. Receiving a refund of taxes paid in excess of the taxes paid, crosses the line from refund into welfare. I am of the opinion that taxes on profits made outside of the US that have been paid to the country where the profits were made, should be accepted towards the US tax liability, too. Thus, GE's non-Domestic profits would be counted towards their Federal tax liability, but that would be reduced by the amount of taxes paid on those profits outside of the US.

So, if GE were to have a 20% Federal tax liability on non-Domestic business, but paid 19% on that income, then their Federal liability on that income would be 1%, as opposed to an effective 39% (19% already paid + 20% Federal). If they already paid 25%, then their Federal liability would be 0% (it would not be allowed for it to be negative; the Federal government would never have to "refund" any taxes paid in excess of Federal liability).

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What is your solution? To only partially remove loopholes and carve-outs? To remove all loopholes? create a Corporate AMT?

IMO, a Corporation that has zero tax liability is cheating the system if that Corporation has domestic profit. Receiving a refund of taxes paid in excess of the taxes paid, crosses the line from refund into welfare. I am of the opinion that taxes on profits made outside of the US that have been paid to the country where the profits were made, should be accepted towards the US tax liability, too. Thus, GE's non-Domestic profits would be counted towards their Federal tax liability, but that would be reduced by the amount of taxes paid on those profits outside of the US.

So, if GE were to have a 20% Federal tax liability on non-Domestic business, but paid 19% on that income, then their Federal liability on that income would be 1%, as opposed to an effective 39% (19% already paid + 20% Federal). If they already paid 25%, then their Federal liability would be 0% (it would not be allowed for it to be negative; the Federal government would never have to "refund" any taxes paid in excess of Federal liability).

many corporations make only minumal profit and it is passed onto the corporate members who do pay taxes. It depends, these things are done so creatively especially when you drag corpotate trusts into the picture there is literally no way to have a decent "how do we fix it" discussion without looking at the whole picture.

Look at my above post, everything else is just the usual shuffling shit around which is what politics is based on.

Mobs forcing other mobs to pay money to yet other mobs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


What you all "know" is an Urban Myth.

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Really.....


Do you have some stats to back that up?

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


What you all "know" is an Urban Myth.

There are a lot of misconceptions about the programs, but many of the stories that get labeled as "urban myth," are quite accurate, and fairly common. Since a great deal of fraud is handled administratively, when they catch it, there isn't a public record to document the case.

Yes. I do know how much a typical single mom of 2 is going to get. Just enough to be nailed in, at the lowest part of the charts in our economic spectrum.

Of course, from there, she can learn to start working it. Those food stamps go a lot farther, when the kiddies breakfasts and lunches are taken care of by the school. Heathcare doesn't come with a payroll deduction, or with those pesky co-pays. There might be only enough cash to rent something really crappy to begin with, but once the Section 8 subsidy comes on, 30% of your income can get you right out of the ghetto... at least until the influx of Section 8 turns the new neighborhood into a ghetto. Sign up for the right welfare-to-work program, your gas gets paid for, along with your work clothing allowance, free daycare for the kiddies (which my brother and his wife tell me is costing them $18,000 a year) and up to $3,000 in car repairs, when needed. Those time limits we hear so much about can be waived, simply by saying the magic words, as can getting repeat service on, "once-in-lifetime," benefits such as a few weeks worth of hotel vouchers, or total costs of moving into a new residence (first/last rent, truck rental, cash to buy appliances). For someone who is acclimated to living poor, living poor on welfare can be a pretty cushy gig.