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[Poll]

Welfare vs Charity

Welfare is theft.

9% (8)

Welfare is moral and just.

20% (18)

Welfare is theft, but in the service of a greater good, it's needed.

5% (5)

The welfare state does more harm than good.

23% (20)

Welfare given to big business is far more troubling to me.

40% (35)

Total Votes : 86

(last vote on : 2/26/2013 10:50:04 AM)
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RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 10:33:08 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Gen. Reply:

Demagoguing this issue is about as easy as it gets.

The "welfare mom" Saint ronnie told us about,who drove her new caddy to the welfare office...yada-yada ........was a fraud.....there was no such person.

It is a myth....urban or otherwise and just more of the stupid/ugly 47% takers meme.

Exxon,GE and hundreds of other companies either paying no taxes or receiving trillions of tax payer dollars makes the pittance lost in providing a minimal safety net a penny-wise,pound-foolish exercise.

We had welfare reform already.... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html?_r=0

It`s time we had corporate welfare reform.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 41

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 10:44:40 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Gen. Reply:

The "welfare mom" Saint ronnie told us about,who drove her new caddy to the welfare office...yada-yada ........was a fraud.....there was no such person.

It`s time we had corporate welfare reform.

Do not make disparaging remarks about Saint Ronnie, the slayer of the Soviet Union, Second coming of the Messiah (or is he one of the antichrists foretold by Nostradamus? I never get that part straight) the bringer of wealth and prosperity to increase the coffers of good Republicans, he that walks on water like christ, pisses wine instead of urine, shits gold bricks instead of fecal matter, the disowner of the prodigal son.

Dare you not take saint ronnie's name in such a blasphemous manner lest you be smited by the angry god of the Republican Christians.

To do so makes your soul forfeit, thus proving you are in league with the dark master of hell.

Now did I miss anything?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 42

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:00:20 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

It doesn't help your response, LafayetteLady, when you start by distorting a statement. I didn't say these cases were handled without documentation, I said there wasn't a public record to document it. Case files are confidential.

Then you come up with the outright falsehood that Section 8 is closed. Bullshit. The waiting lists of various administering agencies open and close, to try and keep the list somewhere in range of the 2 year wait, as do the waiting lists for subsidized housing in other forms, but the program itself is still rolling along. Disabled veterans, AIDS patients, and a few other special categories still get expedited processing.

Funny you should mention steak and lobster, though. The reciept below was found in a parking lot, and did result in a criminal prosecution. That case is publicly documented. Feel free to Google as you will on it.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/23/2013 11:06:14 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 43

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:04:19 PM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Exxon,GE and hundreds of other companies either paying no taxes or receiving trillions of tax payer dollars makes the pittance lost in providing a minimal safety net a penny-wise,pound-foolish exercise.

Source?

quote:

We had welfare reform already.... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html?_r=0
It`s time we had corporate welfare reform.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

# of people on Welfare: 4.3M
Total government $$ spent on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment): $131.9B

That's just over $30k/year per person on Welfare (not including food stamps or unemployment).

2010 Poverty level for a 2-adult family with 3 kids was just over $26k.

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

So, we are spending $30k/year per person on Welfare, which is more than the poverty rate for a 2-adult family of 5?

Corporate Welfare is a myth. It's simply a change in what you're calling a tax incentive. But, I'm all for ending all tax loopholes. All of them. Not simply closing Big Oil's or this group's. All of them.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 44

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:20:19 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Well when we get rid of billions in "incentives"......please feel free to send your own money to Mitt or the Koch-bros

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 45

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:29:05 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It doesn't help your response, LafayetteLady, when you start by distorting a statement. I didn't say these cases were handled without documentation, I said there wasn't a public record to document it. Case files are confidential.

Exactly. And you know about them because you work for the department? Or you know someone who actually disclosed confidential information to you?

quote:

Then you come up with the outright falsehood that Section 8 is closed. Bullshit. The waiting lists of various administering agencies open and close, to try and keep the list somewhere in range of the 2 year wait, as do the waiting lists for subsidized housing in other forms, but the program itself is still rolling along. Disabled veterans, AIDS patients, and a few other special categories still get expedited processing.

I said:

quote:

Section 8? Section 8 here has been closed for years, and I do mean years. So no one is getting that to help them on their way either.

As in NJ, where I live. I am very aware that in other states, Section 8 is actively taking applications.

quote:

Funny you should mention steak and lobster, though. The reciept below was found in a parking lot, and did result in a criminal prosecution. That case is publicly documented. Feel free to Google as you will on it.

I never said that welfare fraud doesn't happen. That would be ridiculous. However, this wasn't some single mother living high on the hog. It was a MAN who was making the purchases for resale. There is a difference.

My statements remain valid, and my questions to you remain unanswered. Shall I remind you of them?

You said you know what a single mother of one gets in assistance...so what is it?

How do you know about these "fraud" cases handled administratively within the welfare office?

Have you ever been a single custodial parent who has received assistance and thought how rich you could get off of it?

Ok, that last one I hadn't asked before, but I already know the answer. You are a man, and an older one at that, so you never would have been a custodial parent, and therefore would never have tried to raise your child and needed help, unless the child's mother was so abysmal that a court would favor you over her, which is doubtful.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 46

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:31:18 PM

fmfclwu

Posts: 74
Joined: 5/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Exxon,GE and hundreds of other companies either paying no taxes or receiving trillions of tax payer dollars makes the pittance lost in providing a minimal safety net a penny-wise,pound-foolish exercise.

Source?

quote:

We had welfare reform already.... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/22/opinion/22clinton.html?_r=0
It`s time we had corporate welfare reform.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

# of people on Welfare: 4.3M
Total government $$ spent on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment): $131.9B

That's just over $30k/year per person on Welfare (not including food stamps or unemployment).

2010 Poverty level for a 2-adult family with 3 kids was just over $26k.

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/

So, we are spending $30k/year per person on Welfare, which is more than the poverty rate for a 2-adult family of 5?

Corporate Welfare is a myth. It's simply a change in what you're calling a tax incentive. But, I'm all for ending all tax loopholes. All of them. Not simply closing Big Oil's or this group's. All of them.

Your first site is incredibly poorly sourced (listing a bunch of sites but not tying any specific data to any of them) and has a lot of issues if you look deeper. The "average time on welfare" numbers line up perfectly with a study by the Urban Institute, for example - only the study is from before Clinton's welfare reform, published in 1996.

Even with a Google search, I can't find anything but conservative echo chamber sites as backup for the $131.9B figure. The 4.6 million people ONLY counts people specifically receiving aid under TANF, so the only meaningful numerator for that should be TANF spending, not overall welfare spending, unless you find the number of people receiving any kind of welfare. Spending on TANF is about $9.6B, so your actual calculation is that the average spending on a needy family is a whopping $2000/year.

As for actual numbers for all programs (sticking with FY2011, as that's where most of the numbers seem to come from), federal programs classified under the general category of "welfare" actually spend a lot more than your link, so clearly that $131.9B was simply cherry-picked from somewhere.

All "welfare" $472.9B
Tax spending $187.0B (earned income credit, child tax credit, etc.)
Unemployment Insurance $120.6B
Food stamps $77.7B
WIC $24.0B
Housing Assistance $55.4B (includes tax credits and rental subsidies)
Social Security Disability Insurance $6.7B

Clearly, these programs are benefiting FAR more than 4.6 million people, (hey, even I'm amongst the people who benefit - I claim the EITC!) so your claim of spending $30K per person on welfare is just nonsense.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 47

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:34:52 PM

FrostedFlake

Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline

Welfare is bad because it reduces the supply of desperate people.

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simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to fmfclwu)

Post #: 48

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:39:26 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Jeezz... Would anyone like to calculate the cost of not caring for the sick,elderly or homeless?

Those costs aren`t counted in dollars.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 49

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/23/2013 11:53:53 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Welfare is bad because it reduces the supply of desperate people.

No, that is it's saving grace. What we need to do is revamp a lot of things within the programs, to reduce the unintended damages done. I've offered a number ideas to kick around over the course of many discussions here. Unfortunately, a lot of that discussion has been lost. See my original reply, back on the first page of the thread.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 50

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 12:18:22 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Well, I've fucked a fair number of women on welfare, back when the best housing I could afford put me living in the same apartment complexes. Does that count?

Let's see. I remember the first trip to the grocery store in months, when my mom's case was finally approved, back in the early 70's. We weren't on all that long, but it was certainly a blessing right then. I was a bit amazed to discover I was eligible for food stamps, back in the starving student days, and it was certainly nice to eat something other than the pizzas I was bringing home from work. Most recently, I used a job training program (declining the cash and food stamps) to get my class A license, and get back to work. That was about 13 years ago.

No. I don't work for the department, but what I do these days does require me to be familiar with a wide range of programs, and to talk with a lot of participants. Those specifics may inform and shape my opinions on what we could do better, but none of them wind up in my screeds, or rants on the subject. Obviously, when I'm in line at the grocery store, and see the Golden State Advantage EBT card getting swiped by the person ahead of me in line, I do know what I'm looking at.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 51

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 12:28:23 AM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I remember back in the 70's in college I knew a couple of guys who bragged how they had it made collecting welfare and selling pot. This was before the reforms and along with food stamps ya got a check and all the rest of it. Too often people loot the system when they don't need it. Now days some women loot the system by having more kids thus increasing the amounts they receive and the length of time they can keep collecting. Of course we all know this. It's a vicious circle when we subsidize having kids. We simply get more of it.

What you all "know" is an Urban Myth. The government has put a regulation in place that a woman who is on welfare and has another child will NOT get an increase in benefits.

Do you have any idea what a single mother with one child gets in assistance? I know it varies by state, but even just in your home state of Florida, do you know what the amount is?

When you can adequately answer that question, then you can talk about how the system is messed up. Until then, all you have are what other people tell you, like the Urban Myth about women having children to get more cash assistance.

in PA my sister got 480 dollars a month for food for one kid and her spouse, plus wic

With her second child her amount increased to 700 dollars plus wic.

Its Bullshit to believe that If you have more kids you wont get more.... if you cant afford one child, how does the government expect you to support two on the need for one? You cant, SO when you have more kids you get more money...

Its not an urban myth but easy common practice

And Section 8 is alive and well in PA, and many other states,

And as for your comment on no paid time off, Yes some people still get it in fact my sister has her doctor write out prescriptions for friends picks them up on the governments dime and then sells them to said friends for cheaper then their copays...

Yeah... No one Ever works the system... How honestly naive are you?

I personally watched my sister get a section 8 check for first and last months rent on a 4 bedroom house, I watched her statements for food-stamps, plus wic on top plus the child care credit where she pays 15 dollars a week instead of 200 that everyone else does at her daycare....

Ive watched her take her food stamps card to a gas station and buy cigarettes with them,

Ive personally reported her for fraud myself, and nothing was ever done about it...

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 52

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 12:35:17 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
Ive personally reported her for fraud myself, and nothing was ever done about it...

We Tip: 1-800-US FRAUD

They require that you remain anonymous, and will give you a tracking number to follow up on the call.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

Post #: 53

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 12:44:01 AM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline

Ive called it 3 times, the gas station cannot find the receipts for the purchases so there is nothing that can be substantiated.

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 54

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 7:12:45 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

Wow, your sister is quite the entrepreneur isn't she? I never said it doesn't happen. But it is far from the norm, especially considering the number of people on the program. Quite frankly, I'm glad to hear that you reported your sister. I have reported people for fraud as well, although I do know that in MY state, those people lost or were denied benefits.

If your sister was receiving $480 dollars in food stamps for three people, Pennsylvania is paying a lot more than NJ, where the cost of living is higher. And yes, the amount of food stamps is increased, but not cash assistance.

Is she attending school or working? Because if not, someone screwed up, she shouldn't get daycare. Years ago, there were stores that would allow people to buy non food items with food stamps. By years ago, I mean prior to Clinton. I know locally to me, there was a store that you could buy prepared hot meals with food stamps even though you aren't supposed to. However, I also know that store catered to people who lived in rooming houses where cooking is not allowed and it was the only way they got a hot meal.

However, it really doesn't matter that the gas station can't find the receipt, since the SNAP program can get it without it. It's all computerized these days. If they wanted it, they could get it.

(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)

Post #: 55

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 8:30:05 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I do think it's theft to take money I earned, and give it to someone I don't know, or to spend it on something I don't agree with...

Fundamentally, the problem with this is it precludes living in a society. AS soon as you get more than one person then there will be disagreement. From that disagreement will come war or compromise. In a compromise situation, you'll end up not entirely getting your way.

No, it is not "theft". It is civilization. If you think of all government as "theft" then you really need to go off the grid somewhere and neither take or receive from the public.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 56

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 9:30:37 AM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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I do see it as at least a form of theft, or at minimum, coercion (sp?), but I also said that, to me, it is acceptable, for a greater good.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 57

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 9:40:30 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I do see it as at least a form of theft, or at minimum, coercion (sp?), but I also said that, to me, it is acceptable, for a greater good.

Well, I suppose I might agree with coercion in the limited sense that various power factions have gobbled up the entire planet so someone actually wishing to be free really doesn't have any choice. But beyond that you'd need to describe for me the relationship between compromise and coercion. How exactly do YOU think more than 1 person ought to figure out what to do as a group?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 58

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 9:54:23 AM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Wow, your sister is quite the entrepreneur isn't she? I never said it doesn't happen. But it is far from the norm, especially considering the number of people on the program. Quite frankly, I'm glad to hear that you reported your sister. I have reported people for fraud as well, although I do know that in MY state, those people lost or were denied benefits.

If your sister was receiving $480 dollars in food stamps for three people, Pennsylvania is paying a lot more than NJ, where the cost of living is higher. And yes, the amount of food stamps is increased, but not cash assistance.

Is she attending school or working? Because if not, someone screwed up, she shouldn't get daycare. Years ago, there were stores that would allow people to buy non food items with food stamps. By years ago, I mean prior to Clinton. I know locally to me, there was a store that you could buy prepared hot meals with food stamps even though you aren't supposed to. However, I also know that store catered to people who lived in rooming houses where cooking is not allowed and it was the only way they got a hot meal.

However, it really doesn't matter that the gas station can't find the receipt, since the SNAP program can get it without it. It's all computerized these days. If they wanted it, they could get it.

She works just enough to get unemployment along with her spouse, neither of the two have a job at the same time for longer then a month, She works 6 months out of the year, as does he, They both work jobs that bring in 10 to 19 an hour and still get benefits.

i do have to say that the amount she gets probably just isnt for her reporting herself her son and her husband, she most likely is reporting that multiple other people live with her that have limited income, like my mom and step dad(even though its a lie)

I see her and a few hundred other people do it regularly that i cant help but roll my eyes... i am in Giant before work one day and watch someone by someone else stuff with their food stamps for cash money, This is fraud, once they leave I ask for a manager and ask when they allowed such practices...and sadly the cashier did get reprimanded, but, its life when you help commit a crime...

_____________________________

"Theres nothing in life like the feeling of cool leather sliding over your skin, the tears that fill your eyes as you realize someone else thinks you deserve it even if you havent reached that conclusion yet"- Forever to remember 11/5/11

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

Post #: 59

RE: Welfare vs Charity - 2/24/2013 9:58:55 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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I'm compromising by not resisting (in general) the coercion. I'm very much in favor of living in a society that shares certain burdens, even if a degree of coercion is involved.

Now, it can be argued that by CHOOSING to live in such a society, that removes the coercive aspect of taxation, welfare, etc., which I think is the point you're making. If so, I don't think we're disagreeing, as much as it is semantics getting in the way.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 60

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