RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools

RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 5:50:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim This is not roleplay. It is not living a fantasy. It is aligning your body to your brain, your heart, your spirit. Brain, heart and spirit seems rather redundent as the second two are just euphemisims for the brain, yes? As someone who has felt my heart hurt, and who has experienced things that simply must (IMO) go beyond the constructs of mere synapses, I must reply "Not at all!", but that is likely a subject for another topic. I know the concepts we have discussed here in this fine topic are strange to you, but I will encourage you to align yourself with Shakespeare's thoughts on the matter: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 6:02:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim As someone who has felt my heart hurt, and who has experienced things that simply must (IMO) go beyond the constructs of mere synapses, I must reply "Not at all!", but that is likely a subject for another topic. I asked because I don't want to ignore part of your position. It looked to me as though you stated that this is not a role play it's aligning your body to your brain, your brain, your brain. Which to me would very much seem to constitute a role play. Hence my desire for clarification. I hope we're on the same page that the job of the heart is actually to pump blood and that female hearts can be and are transplanted into male bodies without causing the recipient to feel compelled to wear a skirt. So I'm left wondering what exactly this spirit is? Trying to understand if you think it isn't a role play because your ghost is a woman or something?

Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 6:32:20 PM)
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PeonForHer -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 8:46:14 PM)
quote: I find it particularly sad that some of us, who have mostly faced serious issues (largely caused by hate and ignorance) about resolving our own desires, are happy to dish out the same tired BS to others. Sad, and - to me - actually a bit baffling. I've always taken it that in order to live the lives that we BDSMers want to live, we have to be prepared to dump quite a lot of our own mental barriers. I find it incomprehensible that so many people seem able to be radical in just one way but remain so conformist in all others.

OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 9:55:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim As someone who has felt my heart hurt, and who has experienced things that simply must (IMO) go beyond the constructs of mere synapses, I must reply "Not at all!", but that is likely a subject for another topic. I asked because I don't want to ignore part of your position. It looked to me as though you stated that this is not a role play it's aligning your body to your brain, your brain, your brain. Which to me would very much seem to constitute a role play. Hence my desire for clarification. I hope we're on the same page that the job of the heart is actually to pump blood and that female hearts can be and are transplanted into male bodies without causing the recipient to feel compelled to wear a skirt. So I'm left wondering what exactly this spirit is? Trying to understand if you think it isn't a role play because your ghost is a woman or something? I had typed up a nice response and then lost it when my computer crashed...bah. Suffice it to say that I believe that the sum of human experience is more than a bunch of synapses firing in sequence. I believe that each of us is not only a physical being, but also a spiritual being. No ghosts here, just components that all work to make up a whole person. As to the roleplaying - let me ask you a question: "Are you just playing a role in your life?" No? Neither am I. It is like the "When did you choose to be straight?" question. You didn't. It is just how you are. And yes, we are on the same page on physical hearts. I have no illusions about any "magic" of female anatomy, but the "heart" is defined in human experience as more than just an organ that pumps blood. It is also part of our feeling being and whether that is actually just synapses firing or something we cannot yet define, it is real, it is there, and we feel it, know it, live it. If we didn't there would be no love songs... So yea, I, and a bunch of other folks on the big-ball-o-dirt, are called to the female in all things, including restrooms. Others are called to the male in all things. We didn't chose it, and we are not playing any sort of game or fantasy. It is who we are at the core of our beings, and the path to reconciliation is not easy nor fast. But we cannot and will not put our lives on hold nor deny our authenticity just because it makes some people uncomfortable. Just like the gay and lesbian community, we are among you. And we are here to stay.

DarkSteven -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 10:11:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata ~ FR ~ Hypothetical: George and Sally inhabit the same body. Sally likes to wear dresses, naturally, and is embarrassed and angry at having to use the mens room. She's not a man! George gets along okay with Sally most of the time, but it's annoying to occasionally find himself wearing a dress. It comes with the territory, of course. Neither knows when the other will pop up, so they carry a change of clothes. In school they have to share notes, because sometimes George will be in the first class of the day and Sally in the second. Does George use the mens room and Sally the ladies room? And if not, what about Sally then? It's not her fault she's in a male body. And it's neither's fault that this happened to them. What if Sally sues? There's no end to this. Should Otherkin be accomodated by allowing them use their preferred tree or bush? Not funny. I think the only possible bottom line here is to use the facilities appropriate to your body until you're old enough to change it. And as for the situation that George and Sally are in, or Otherkin, I don't have a clue. K. You've described multiple personalities, DID. That's entirely different from this case, in which Sally inhabits a male body, and George does not exist. quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim This is not roleplay. It is not living a fantasy. It is aligning your body to your brain, your heart, your spirit. The dysphoria/disconnect that being transgendered causes is so completely life disrupting that nearly 50% of all transgendered people are driven to attempt suicide and over half of them succeed. You don't have to understand it to see that there is something very serious happening to a subset of our population. If societies answer is to make it a "scarlet letter" for our kids, then a bad situation becomes even worse. Yeah. The way I like to describe it is that the parents made a girl dress as a boy (not in Cody's case, but usually), and God did as well.

Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/8/2013 10:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven You've described multiple personalities, DID. That's entirely different from this case, in which Sally inhabits a male body, and George does not exist. True enough, but homosexuality used to be considered pathological too, and who knows what a shrink might make of Otherkin. Do you really want to take the side of our currently fashionable standard of "normality" and exclude the needs of the "disordered" from consideration? K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/9/2013 2:55:24 AM)
The notion of "roleplay' seems to be cropping up continually here. Unfortunately it is being used to deny 'authenticity' to TG children, and by extension to all TGs. The idea that some genders are 'natural' (and therefore somehow not 'roleplay') is not supported by the evidence, despite a strong cultural belief to the contrary. If we are going to include the term 'roleplay' in this discussion, then let's be very clear about it - all gendered behaviour is roleplay. All 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviours are roleplay. They are learned behaviours, there's not an iota of 'naturalness' in them. From the very first moment we emerge in to this world ("It's a boy/girl!") we are subjected to a gender training regime 24/7 that inculcates the assigned gender into us all, whether we like it or not. Pretending that such acquired behaviours are natural is not something that stands up to scrutiny - in fact it is delusory. The major differences between TG behaviours/roleplays and 'normal'/monogender behaviours/roleplays are that: * the latter are socially approved while the former aren't; and * TGs consciously construct aspects of their genders, while traditional masculine and feminine monogenders act out their gender roleplays sub-consciously (unthinkingly?). The false dichotomy - between 'authentic' genders and others - seems to me to lie at the heart of this discussion. So it's regrettable that some of those posting here are confusing 'authentic' genders with socially-approved genders, thereby not only confusing themselves but also needlessly complicating this issue with their mistaken assumptions.

OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/9/2013 8:38:05 AM)
Respectfully, I disagree with your position that all gender behavior is socially learned. If it were, we would not be having this discussion about a 6-year old kid who, at the age when they are most impressionable and least experienced, is behaving out of the "norm". Certainly there is social training for gender, but I disagree with the concept that it alone explains all gender behavior. I also disagree with the concept that transgendered people consciously "construct" their gender identity. Certainly there is conscious "choice" in the gender expression, but I believe the expression to be more than just adopting anothers learned behavior and substituting it for your own. In my experience, there is a LOT more going on there which is contained in the dsyphoria and distress caused and reflected in the suicide rates transgender people experience. And if, by saying so, I am adding confusion to the issue for some, well then it is a complex issue and I don't think you can break it down into such simple parts and come up with a correct explanation.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/10/2013 7:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I had typed up a nice response and then lost it when my computer crashed...bah. Sorry to hear that, I hate it when that happens. quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Suffice it to say that I believe that the sum of human experience is more than a bunch of synapses firing in sequence. I agree with that sentence. I don't think there's anybody on the planet who disagrees with it, of course there's more than synapses you know like neurons. quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I believe that each of us is not only a physical being, but also a spiritual being. No ghosts here, just components that all work to make up a whole person. So we are talking about your brain, your brain, your brain? quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim As to the roleplaying - let me ask you a question: "Are you just playing a role in your life?" Of course. Seeing Return of the Jedi at the age of four, well I knew I wanted one. But with the reality of the thirteenth amendment I'm never going to actually own a slave girl so what I've got is a role play. Furthermore with gender roles, yeah of course I agree with tweak they obviously are. Dressing and acting a certain way to fit in with a social group is clearly role playing, it's not as though there's a gene that hardwired my brain not to say Fuck! when I'm wearing a tie. I hope that it's straight forward that the way I dress and talk changes in said case because I've taken on the role of a professional.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/10/2013 7:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The notion of "roleplay' seems to be cropping up continually here. Unfortunately it is being used to deny 'authenticity' to TG children, and by extension to all TGs. I don't think I even understand what you mean? While I am familiar with dictionary definitions for all the words you are using it seems as though 'authenticity' is jargon in this particular usage, would you explain it?

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 12:35:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I have no illusions about any "magic" of female anatomy, but the "heart" is defined in human experience as more than just an organ that pumps blood. Yeah used in that context it's a euphemism for the brain. quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim It is also part of our feeling being and whether that is actually just synapses firing or something we cannot yet define, it is real, it is there, and we feel it, know it, live it. If we didn't there would be no love songs... I don't think anyone is contesting the existence of emotions, speaking of love songs here this is love: [image]local://upfiles/566126/61156A2D6D72438CB09B2F744B810E89.gif[/image]

tweakabelle -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 6:49:06 AM)
If you think that love can be reduced to a few images of brain activity, then all I can say is that I feel so terribly terribly sorry for you. A life without love is no life at all. I hope that one day you will experience love, it will be a wonderfully mind blowing liberating exhilarating experience for you. Hopefully you will then understand precisely how banal, barren and one-dimensional your current conception of love is. Truly.

breagha -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 7:37:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I have no illusions about any "magic" of female anatomy, but the "heart" is defined in human experience as more than just an organ that pumps blood. Yeah used in that context it's a euphemism for the brain. quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim It is also part of our feeling being and whether that is actually just synapses firing or something we cannot yet define, it is real, it is there, and we feel it, know it, live it. If we didn't there would be no love songs... I don't think anyone is contesting the existence of emotions, speaking of love songs here this is love: [image]local://upfiles/566126/61156A2D6D72438CB09B2F744B810E89.gif[/image] i'm sorry but your image only shows what part of the brain is deactivated when someone falls in love. that does not show what part of the brain is actually active when in love. i think to prove your point of it being not that big a part of the brain. you should actually show the parts that become active when we fall in love. only my opinion

OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 7:56:26 AM)
Steel, You seem to be intent on convincing me to alter my perception of my own experience and adopt your definitional terms. I am not sure what your aim here is. Even if it were just brain activity, does it make the experience in any way less valid? Does it change the suicide statistics or society's perception of transgendered people? Did I hit a button? [;)] Are you like an atheist and my trying to define myself into a spiritual realm tweeked you? Regardless this feels too far off the OP and if there is conversation yet to have, we should steer it back into the realm of equal access to public lavatories.

PeonForHer -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 8:03:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle A life without love is no life at all. Whoa. Tweak, there could be people reading this whose partners have just upped and gone. Have a care!

PeonForHer -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 8:25:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Steel, You seem to be intent on convincing me to alter my perception of my own experience and adopt your definitional terms. I am not sure what your aim here is. I'm not sure either, though it does seem that GS wants to advance a materialist view of the psyche for some reason. As for social construction in gender identity: I'm content to conclude that some such constructions feel deeper and more immutable than others. If they're not actually hard-wired, they as near to that to make little practical difference. Swinging this all back to those school toilets: I have a strong feeling that this is much more a problem for the adults around than the kids themselves . . . .

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 8:34:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle A life without love is no life at all. Whoa. Tweak, there could be people reading this whose partners have just upped and gone. Have a care! Been there, done that, got many T-shirts. She upped and went, taking the kids away with her. I didn't have any contact with them for the best part of 6 years. So I was even denied the love of my kids. But.... I whole-heartedly agree with tweak. Unless you are a complete and utter self-centred asshat who doesn't give a flying fuck about anyone else, a life without love is like living in a void.

breagha -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 11:13:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Swinging this all back to those school toilets: I have a strong feeling that this is much more a problem for the adults around than the kids themselves . . . . i agree one hundred percent. the kids that this child has been around didn't notice or realise that she was born male. i'm not sure that any of them would care. i'm sure that there were ties or bonds formed in friendship with her and eventually it would just be accepted as who she is. kids are pretty smart like that. in my opinion anyway... edited to correct grammar

LadyPact -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/11/2013 4:27:43 PM)
In the interest of steering it back, there's some stuff that I'd like to know that I haven't found information about. I get that Coy has a passport that says gender is female. Due to discussions with friends that are trans, I know it can be a royal pain in the ass in some cases to get the official birth certificate changed for gender unless the journey has started to SRS. It's actually easier to get a driver's license or state issued ID changed. I wonder if the child was originally registered as female or male? It doesn't seem to make much sense to Me if they had registered Coy as male. Something* had to happen for the school to up and change it's policy. Even if that something was just among members of administration. Knowing that it's a Fountain/Ft Carson school, I'm not surprised that it came up. Not all military folks have the greatest track record with the LGBT community. (This doesn't mean that this school is a military school or one that is on post. It means that there are also many military associated folks in the area.) I'm going to see what else I can find out.

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