RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 2:59:33 AM)

quote:

njlauren

quote:



ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If one subscribes to the orthodox meanings of sex and gender in this context - ie. sex refers to physiological/biological differences between the sexes, and gender refers to the social psychological and behavioural differences - then practically by definition all gendered behaviour is learned.



That isn't a good definition, it is one that has been blown out the window


I agree that it isn't a very good definition. Certainly it is not a definiton that I subscribe to. I was trying to present the orthodox view and, by doing so, hoping to avoid the discussion straying off topic and onto the barren nature/nurture debate. Obviously my hope turned out to be a forlorn one.

Originally, this point arose because I objected to the manner in which one poster was using the term 'roleplay' to denigrate TGs. As this poster has since admitted there are shortcomings in his understanding of the term 'roleplay':
quote:

GotSteel
I'm still trying to find out what difference (if any) there is between expression and roleplay.

further discussion of this particular point seems unnecessary.




GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 4:09:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Originally, this point arose because I objected to the manner in which one poster was using the term 'roleplay' to denigrate TGs. As this poster has since admitted there are shortcomings in his understanding of the term 'roleplay':


Has anybody else been talking about role play or are the motivations you‘ve been attributing to "one poster" ridiculous misrepresentations of myself?




Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 10:15:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The argument that all gender characteristics and gender roles are socially enforced has been shown to be false...

I think Tweakabelle is perfectly well aware of that


Sure fooled me...
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    let's be very clear about it... They are learned behaviours, there's not an iota of 'naturalness' in them.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    all gendered behaviour, including orthodox 'masculine' and 'feminine' behaviours is learned behaviour

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

    practically by definition all gendered behaviour is learned.
K.




OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 11:54:36 AM)

So this is just a general reply. I think all this talk of expression vs. roleplay has gotten a bit out of hand. Suffice it to say that for myself and pretty much every one of the transgendered people I know, simply being able to be your true gender is a pure expression of "self". There is no roleplay because it does not feel in any way put on or false. It feels and for me, is, natural and right. Again, I think you would be hard pressed to find a transperson who would disagree with most of that.

And so, in being ones true gender, most simply want to get on with life, and do so unmolested.

Two years ago, I went to an outdoor hotspring in Colorado. Now, I am not transitioned, nor do I have breasts - that are part of my flesh. But I was arriving and leaving dressed, behaving, and appearing as female. I was really uncomfortable about how to handle where I should change, what I should wear...and of course how/if I would be permitted to even go inside and if there would be any sort of issue with other patrons.

I am not the type of person that can handle just walking into a place and seeing what might happen. So I called in advance. I informed the lady on the phone that I was transgendered, not transitioned, and asked if they might have a private changing area that I could use. She said that yes, they did, and she would be happy to accommodate me and that I was most welcome.

And so we went and for the most part had a lovely experience.

I relate this story because this is one example of how transgendered people live their lives. That constant thinking/worrying/wondering about what someone is going to think, say, or do about you gets really heavy. And you try to NOT live your life like that, but it is nigh impossible to not give it space in your head. At least for me it is... Using facilities of your true gender, or trying to get separate accommodations just so you can feel safe and yet feel like you can actually leave the house and have a life.

Probably, some will say that I should have challenged the conventions and used the women's changing area. You know, they are probably right, but I just could not face it - it was just too heavy, too daunting on the day. When I walked out of the private changing area, I nearly threw up I was so nervous.

I hope people can see that no one in their right mind would live this way unless they were being driven by something that was so deep and authentic it simply could not be denied.

I feel for this child Coy because she is just beginning and already at age 6 she is facing the challenges that society throws up against people who, just to be themselves, have to break through gender barriers. There is no easy answer, no easy path.




GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 6:06:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I have one thought when I use the restroom...

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm having trouble with this because if you just wanted to pee the male restroom would also work. As you point out in this other post there's something else going on as well:


No, the male restroom would not work. I look (mostly) like a girl, I act like a girl, I am dressed like a girl. Going into the men's restroom is going to cause more commotion than using the women's. Further, by going in there, I dramatically increase my risk of verbal abuse or physical assault. In the context of my OP regarding that, I was pointing out that trans folk generally have no puerile interest in getting into one restroom or the other - we just want to pee...

I can understand that reasoning in certain circumstances as there are some restrooms, dark alleys and so forth that I'm not inclined to go into either. However it also seems to be yet another cop out as I asked about your being called to female restrooms not scared away from male restrooms. I'm not claiming that your being called to female restrooms is "puerile" I'm asking you what it is. However, having admitted that you are called to female restrooms in the quote below I can't also accept that you just want to pee as stated in the post above because those are mutually exclusive claims.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
So yea, I, and a bunch of other folks on the big-ball-o-dirt, are called to the female in all things, including restrooms. Others are called to the male in all things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm somebody who isn't called or attracted to restrooms so can you explain this with language that doesn't rely on jargon to the point that it's rendered meaningless in plain English.


Now you are just trolling...


Not at all, I'm trying to get you to actually answer my questions.

Here's an analogy maybe that will help. If someone kinky was to explain BDSM to someone who didn't understand it in terms of, a sub is the opposite of a dom and a dom is what a switch is doing when they aren't being a sub, think about how fucking useless that would be to someone who wasn't already familiar with the lifestyle.

In that circumstance saying hey please actually speak English isn't trolling it's an immensely reasonable expectation.




Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 6:23:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Now you are just trolling...

Not at all... saying hey please actually speak English isn't trolling it's an immensely reasonable expectation.

It would be if OttersSwim wasn't speaking English, but in this case I think the problem lies elsewhere.

K.




GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 7:28:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There's an awful lot of hyper-intellectual stuff borne out of this subject, GS, but - for me, at least - it boils down to the fact that one expresses the stuff that feels as though it's at a deeper level and can't be consciously controlled, whereas one 'roleplays' the stuff that might, in theory at least, be consciously controlled.


Peon thank you for giving me a response that isn't so heavily reliant on jargon as to be rendered unreadable by someone who isn't in the know. My use of the word role play is of course meant in the sort of sense that I normally use it on this site where I'm including committed rest of ones life relationships and not in the sense that one might expect to see it used at a star trek convention. I'd consider the level of misunderstanding about that fairly reasonable most everywhere but on this site. But whatever I guess I'll have to have this conversation without being able to relate it to anything I have some ability to conceive of.






GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 8:01:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
(ie a girl is xy, boy xx).....

other way around:


My mistake I've been pretty busy lately and trying to fit this thread in my reading comprehension has suffered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
Ones sex is determined by your chromosomes, that much is true, but beyond that it is complicated as hell. All human fetuses start out as female morphologically, then at an early stage, several months, a hormone bath kicks in and the body differentiates..and there have been babies born that are otherwise normal appearing boys and girls, whose genetics are the opposite (ie a girl is xy, boy xx).....


However I am going to contest that all human fetuses start out as female morphologically, here's a site which shows that part of the embryo and fetus developing so you can see that we don't all start out as females: http://www.baby2see.com/gender/external_genitals.html




GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 8:12:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
As this poster has since admitted there are shortcomings in his understanding of the term 'roleplay':

I call bullshit on your claim.

quote:

GotSteel
I'm still trying to find out what difference (if any) there is between expression and roleplay.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
further discussion of this particular point seems unnecessary.

Considering the number of people who apparently aren't capable of having that discussion, perhaps switching to what exactly gender expression is would be more productive.




LadyPact -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/13/2013 8:29:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So this is just a general reply. I think all this talk of expression vs. roleplay has gotten a bit out of hand. Suffice it to say that for myself and pretty much every one of the transgendered people I know, simply being able to be your true gender is a pure expression of "self". There is no roleplay because it does not feel in any way put on or false. It feels and for me, is, natural and right. Again, I think you would be hard pressed to find a transperson who would disagree with most of that.

And so, in being ones true gender, most simply want to get on with life, and do so unmolested.

Two years ago, I went to an outdoor hotspring in Colorado. Now, I am not transitioned, nor do I have breasts - that are part of my flesh. But I was arriving and leaving dressed, behaving, and appearing as female. I was really uncomfortable about how to handle where I should change, what I should wear...and of course how/if I would be permitted to even go inside and if there would be any sort of issue with other patrons.

I am not the type of person that can handle just walking into a place and seeing what might happen. So I called in advance. I informed the lady on the phone that I was transgendered, not transitioned, and asked if they might have a private changing area that I could use. She said that yes, they did, and she would be happy to accommodate me and that I was most welcome.

And so we went and for the most part had a lovely experience.

I relate this story because this is one example of how transgendered people live their lives. That constant thinking/worrying/wondering about what someone is going to think, say, or do about you gets really heavy. And you try to NOT live your life like that, but it is nigh impossible to not give it space in your head. At least for me it is... Using facilities of your true gender, or trying to get separate accommodations just so you can feel safe and yet feel like you can actually leave the house and have a life.

Probably, some will say that I should have challenged the conventions and used the women's changing area. You know, they are probably right, but I just could not face it - it was just too heavy, too daunting on the day. When I walked out of the private changing area, I nearly threw up I was so nervous.

I hope people can see that no one in their right mind would live this way unless they were being driven by something that was so deep and authentic it simply could not be denied.

I feel for this child Coy because she is just beginning and already at age 6 she is facing the challenges that society throws up against people who, just to be themselves, have to break through gender barriers. There is no easy answer, no easy path.
Dang, I can't remember the name of this joint. Would you be referring to the place that is down towards Canon City? Adult only and clothing optional?

(I'm about to receive a ton of flack and I'm willing to accept that.)

Honestly, I think you made the right move. If I didn't know you and came into a changing area where you were undressed, I'm going to admit that My first thought isn't going to be 'oh, that's just a trans* person' and everything is fine. I'm going to think, "there's a naked dude in here and I'm in an enclosed area". If we are talking about the same place, we're talking cement floors, concrete cinder blocks for walls, public address system with music playing, and a design where lockers and wall prevent a straight shot out of the area if I had come in where the benches were.

I'm going to hazard a guess that a large majority of women are going to have the immediate reaction of dangly bits and "women's changing area" don't go together. That's going to raise some concern. Especially if we're talking about a semi-sound preventive space and one attendant for the entire joint who is taking admissions, tending concessions, and overseeing the springs itself for safety reasons.

It can't be completely unreasonable that some women might have the first thought of "do I have to defend Myself" when they come across someone in a male body in a place that they expect to see only female bodies *and* they are in an enclosed environment? I can't sit here and say that I would have felt completely safe or if I wouldn't have at least went to ask the attendant if everything was kosher.





OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/14/2013 7:52:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Dang, I can't remember the name of this joint. Would you be referring to the place that is down towards Canon City? Adult only and clothing optional?

(I'm about to receive a ton of flack and I'm willing to accept that.)

Honestly, I think you made the right move. If I didn't know you and came into a changing area where you were undressed, I'm going to admit that My first thought isn't going to be 'oh, that's just a trans* person' and everything is fine. I'm going to think, "there's a naked dude in here and I'm in an enclosed area". If we are talking about the same place, we're talking cement floors, concrete cinder blocks for walls, public address system with music playing, and a design where lockers and wall prevent a straight shot out of the area if I had come in where the benches were.

I'm going to hazard a guess that a large majority of women are going to have the immediate reaction of dangly bits and "women's changing area" don't go together. That's going to raise some concern. Especially if we're talking about a semi-sound preventive space and one attendant for the entire joint who is taking admissions, tending concessions, and overseeing the springs itself for safety reasons.

It can't be completely unreasonable that some women might have the first thought of "do I have to defend Myself" when they come across someone in a male body in a place that they expect to see only female bodies *and* they are in an enclosed environment? I can't sit here and say that I would have felt completely safe or if I wouldn't have at least went to ask the attendant if everything was kosher.




LadyP,

Yes, it is the very place. And you know, I agree with you that it is a difficult situation - not just for me, but for anyone I might have encountered if I used the women's changing room. You receive no flack from me, I know it is new and different for a lot of people still, and it is going to take time and a lot more public exposure before it becomes anything but.






OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/14/2013 8:57:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Not at all, I'm trying to get you to actually answer my questions.

Here's an analogy maybe that will help. If someone kinky was to explain BDSM to someone who didn't understand it in terms of, a sub is the opposite of a dom and a dom is what a switch is doing when they aren't being a sub, think about how fucking useless that would be to someone who wasn't already familiar with the lifestyle.

In that circumstance saying hey please actually speak English isn't trolling it's an immensely reasonable expectation.


Steel, I have pretty much exhausted my very English vocabulary trying to explain this to you. I'm not sure what else I can say.

You seem to have latched on to my statement of being drawn to things female - "including restrooms" and are reading something into it that simply is not there.

I am drawn to things female in my life because it is who I am, and thereby I work to create for myself an authentic feeling of self. My authentic self is female and thus, yes, I -want- to use the women's restroom because it is -right- for who I am, and because it is a lot -safer- than being a woman in a mens restroom.






GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/16/2013 4:16:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Also, the term 'roleplay' begs the question: if a man who feels that he is more female underneath is, in fact, simply roleplaying - then, what's the advantage to him? If I could change that particular 'role' that I was 'playing', I'd do it as fast as I possibly could, because it's generally a hard, lonely and pretty unpleasant role to play in today's society. I mean, really, who'd want it, if he had ability to control it, therefore the choice?

I find that argument compelling and like (I think it was) you said earlier whether it's hardwired or acquired early on is irrelevant as either way it's deep in there and we don't have a way to fix it. However, I'm under the impression that part of things is what they're calling gender identity whereas what we've been talking about is the gender expression thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There's an awful lot of hyper-intellectual stuff borne out of this subject, GS, but - for me, at least - it boils down to the fact that one expresses the stuff that feels as though it's at a deeper level and can't be consciously controlled, whereas one 'roleplays' the stuff that might, in theory at least, be consciously controlled.


It seems as though picking a restroom is a conscious choice, one which involves more thought and motivations than when I use a restroom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I am not the type of person that can handle just walking into a place and seeing what might happen. So I called in advance. I informed the lady on the phone that I was transgendered, not transitioned, and asked if they might have a private changing area that I could use. She said that yes, they did, and she would be happy to accommodate me and that I was most welcome.

And so we went and for the most part had a lovely experience.






GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/16/2013 4:28:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Now, I am not transitioned, nor do I have breasts - that are part of my flesh.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Suffice it to say that for myself and pretty much every one of the transgendered people I know, simply being able to be your true gender is a pure expression of "self". There is no roleplay because it does not feel in any way put on or false. It feels and for me, is, natural and right.


Thank you for going into more detail instead of just repeating "expression of authentic self" over and over. It did cause me to think through things that I hadn't really contemplated before and where I am at present is that I just can't buy that there's nothing put on or false about putting on fake boobs.




LadyPact -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/16/2013 4:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
LadyP,

Yes, it is the very place. And you know, I agree with you that it is a difficult situation - not just for me, but for anyone I might have encountered if I used the women's changing room. You receive no flack from me, I know it is new and different for a lot of people still, and it is going to take time and a lot more public exposure before it becomes anything but.
Otters, thank you for that. It is still different for Me, even though I have friends and associates that identify as trans*, it's still not going to be My first thought. Maybe it should be, but I'm not there yet.

(Side note: That hot springs is absolutely awesome. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did when we visited.)





dcnovice -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/16/2013 6:22:00 PM)

FR

PSA: The 3.18.13 issue of The New Yorker has a fascinating article on trans youth. I'd link to it, but it requires a subscription.




LadyPact -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/16/2013 8:27:27 PM)

Thanks, dc. Unfortunately, I don't subscribe and I know the copyright rules about posting the whole thing.

I did want to thank everyone who participated on the topic. I enjoyed the conversation.




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