RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools

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GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 5:47:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave So, if a little boy identifies as a little girl, it isn't discrimination to make him use the boys bathroom because that is a reasonable accommodation for a person with boy parts. The reason I think the school is going to loose is that according to all of Coy's documentation he is a little girl and not a little boy.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:00:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave However, if it's that cut and dry then there is no need for a lawsuit. As an atheist I can assure you that there are things which are cut and dry, extremely EXTREMELY settled law where we routinely need to sue in order to not have our rights trampled all over.

Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:09:51 AM)
~ FR ~ Hypothetical: George and Sally inhabit the same body. Sally likes to wear dresses, naturally, and is embarrassed and angry at having to use the mens room. She's not a man! George gets along okay with Sally most of the time, but it's annoying to occasionally find himself wearing a dress. It comes with the territory, of course. Neither knows when the other will pop up, so they carry a change of clothes. In school they have to share notes, because sometimes George will be in the first class of the day and Sally in the second. Does George use the mens room and Sally the ladies room? And if not, what about Sally then? It's not her fault she's in a male body. And it's neither's fault that this happened to them. What if Sally sues? There's no end to this. Should Otherkin be accomodated by allowing them use their preferred tree or bush? Not funny. I think the only possible bottom line here is to use the facilities appropriate to your body until you're old enough to change it. And as for the situation that George and Sally are in, or Otherkin, I don't have a clue. K.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:10:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim You know, I have no judgement about if someone feels themselves to be a cartoon fox...I guess I would ask what they are doing to make that a reality for themselves. I know what transgendered people are doing and that is my primary concern and focus. When/if the furry movement gets enough momentum in society to attempt to enact change, then they, just as we, are welcome to try. I think this is a good example of the difference between transgender and a lot of the other role plays. Where others tend to keep their role plays away from a non consenting society and can be quite scathing toward those in our communities who don't, it seems to me like the transgender community doesn't share that sentiment. That you're not only pressing for public tolerance but actively pressuring society to play along. And it completely seems to be working. If the rest of us followed your example I don't know that furries would have tail compatible bathroom facilities by now but I'm damn sure that I'd be able to lightly flog my girlfriend in Mass. without risking getting arrested for domestic abuse. I think a lot of us in the BDSM community worry about offending others way to much because the more prudish in our society don't seem to hold similar concerns about offending us or pushing their lifestyle on us.

WithBellsOn -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:14:55 AM)
Err, I'd have no problem with Sally in the lady's room. Or George, for that matter, if he finds himself wearing a dress, and didn't want to get hassled in the men's room. What's the big deal? There are stalls for a reason, folks! The reference to Otherkin seems like a 'slippery slope' argument to me. "If we let the gays marry, there will be people trying to marry dogs next!" You get the idea.

Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:38:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WithBellsOn Err, I'd have no problem with Sally in the lady's room. Or George, for that matter, if he finds himself wearing a dress, and didn't want to get hassled in the men's room. What's the big deal? There are stalls for a reason, folks! The reference to Otherkin seems like a 'slippery slope' argument to me. "If we let the gays marry, there will be people trying to marry dogs next!" You get the idea. But what you wouldn't have a problem with, other people would. I wouldn't want to have to use the ladies room even if I was wearing a dress! They don't have urinals, and I very much prefer to avoid public toilet seats whenever possible. I don't think it's a "slippery slope" simply to observe that everybody's needs and preferences matter. The question is, how can we reasonably accomodate them when faced with such a diverse population of genders and others? Or perhaps more to the point, can we. I'm not sure I see how. K.

WithBellsOn -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 6:54:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata But what you wouldn't have a problem with, other people would. Right. Clearly. I just don't see why they have a problem with it. There are stalls. This person isn't gonna see you naked. You're not going to have to see them naked. You might have to wash your hands next to them, fully clothed, at sinks that are generally spaced at a distance that's socially acceptable for strangers of whatever gender. Where's the issue here? Personally, I think people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel most comfortable with, and not get hassled for it.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 7:00:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave So, if a little boy identifies as a little girl, it isn't discrimination to make him use the boys bathroom because that is a reasonable accommodation for a person with boy parts. The reason I think the school is going to loose is that according to all of Coy's documentation he is a little girl and not a little boy. What does it state on his/her birth certificate??? I'm willing to bet it says he was born a 'male'. So in that sense, his documentation would say he is male - not female. However, Coy's parents have had him registered and dressed as a female since pre-school. IMHO, I think Coy should have been presented as a boy until he was old enough to have the surgery to become a 'girl'. There are going to be all sorts of nasty hiccups along the path because of differing laws, statutes and prejudices - not to mention later episodes in changing rooms etc. All the other parents of any facility, be it a school or public changing rooms, also have a right to protect their female kids from male intrusion and for that reason alone, Coy and his parents should possibly have to accept that he can't be a girl until he is able to have the surgery. At his current age, it's not much of a problem (apart from all the media publicity). But when he gets older and starts into his puberty years, I can see many parents raising objections to having Coy in the same changing rooms as their female offspring. From what I have seen over here and the 8 months I lived in the US, most of the gender-specific facilities that have changing rooms and showers etc do not have separate individual cubicles like they have in the ladies stalls - they tend to be single-gender open areas. Even most of the cleaning staff and attendants are assigned gender-specific areas of duty.

Kirata -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 7:02:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WithBellsOn quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata But what you wouldn't have a problem with, other people would. Right. Clearly. I just don't see why they have a problem with it. There are stalls... Personally, I think people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel most comfortable with, and not get hassled for it. Obviously you didn't even read my post, or you wouldn't have said: "There are stalls." I don't give a fuck if there are stalls. And I don't much care if you don't see why, just like other people don't much care if you "personally" think people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel most "comfortable" with. Is this the best you've got to offer as a way to solve the problem? K.

OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 7:03:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Thank you for the link, Otters. In checking the date, I understand why I wasn't aware of it. We had moved on to GA prior to that law passing. Since/If I still have your attention, I'd like to ask you a question for your personal opinion. As always, please remember that I am asking to further My own education and hope to phrase this in a non offending way. What would your feelings have been on the alternative solution of the unisex bathroom for use? While your Lady was quite right in her statement that we don't know the genitalia of the person in the next stall, putting this kid in the spotlight has pretty much ended that theory. I'd have to say that it's been blown out of the water since the kid was yanked out of school and the story was splashed all over the news. Since Coy is quite obviously aware that her insides don't match her outsides, do you think there could have been a better, age appropriate way to have handled this? Hello LadyP, and thanks for starting this interesting topic! If we were talking about adults here, I would be guns blazing for following the statute and following the person's gender identity for facility use...however... If I were a parent, I would desire, in pretty much all cases, to give my child a sense of normalcy, love and care. I would try to shield them from harm and do my best to mitigate hurt where possible while still acknowledging their needs. And so, while there is a fairly cut and dried law giving my kid the -right- under the law to use that restroom, I don't know that I would have gone there as my first choice if there were a unisex/other option available. It would have been a stop-gap measure however because you simply cannot keep that sort of thing bottled up forever - they are kids after all and kids love to share. Further, I would not want to perpetrate any sense of hide/deny/repress in my kid that I referenced earlier. If there was no media blow up, I would have agreed temporarily to the "other facility accommodation" while I worked with the school to find a way to resolve it so my kid could be and feel normal to her gender identity. I would have started immediately looking for another option for schooling - either another more accepting school/district, homeschooling (which I am not entirely in favor of), etc. if I was ultimately not able to come to any sort of accommodation for my child in that school. It is difficult. You don't want to give up any of your rights under the law by accepting something else, but I also would have -not- wanted the circus that has ensued around Coy's case. These are imperfect waters for which there are no charts and many rocks...so difficult to know what path is the right one. Hope that answers your question. :)

WithBellsOn -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 7:14:11 AM)
quote: Obviously you didn't even read my post, or you wouldn't have said: "There are stalls." I don't give a fuck if there are stalls. And I don't much care if you don't see why, just like other people don't much care if you "personally" think people should be able to use whatever restroom they feel most "comfortable" with. Is this the best you've got to offer as a way to solve the problem? Of course I read your post. And as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to use the men's room in a skirt. I realize it's not my welcome you need there, but I can't help you beyond saying that I support your right to do it. Which I whole-heartedly do. Nowhere did I say 'people should use the restroom of the gender they appear to be presenting as.' As for my post, I was obviously referring to the far more common issue of gender-normative folks objecting to trans folks (and others whose gender presentation might not match their expectations) using 'their' restrooms. And yes, that's the best I've got. You use the men's room, I use the women's room, Coy uses the little girl's room, et cetera. And the hand-wringers take a deep breath and maybe start getting used to the idea that not everyone is exactly like them.

OttersSwim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 7:26:50 AM)
Fast Reply: You know, I had an opportunity to meet one of these kids. She was a delightful young woman who was leaving for Thailand that following week to have her surgery. She had identified and presented as female since an early age and was completely at home in her skin. I believe that if she had been forced by society to wait until that age to even begin the path of her transition, she would have been a very different person indeed and not for the better. I stress again: This is not roleplay. It is not living a fantasy. It is aligning your body to your brain, your heart, your spirit. The dysphoria/disconnect that being transgendered causes is so completely life disrupting that nearly 50% of all transgendered people are driven to attempt suicide and over half of them succeed. You don't have to understand it to see that there is something very serious happening to a subset of our population. If societies answer is to make it a "scarlet letter" for our kids, then a bad situation becomes even worse.

SadistDave -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 8:25:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel As an atheist I can assure you that there are things which are cut and dry, extremely EXTREMELY settled law where we routinely need to sue in order to not have our rights trampled all over. I'm an atheist myself. As an atheist, I can assure you that most atheists concerned about their "rights" are self-serving twits, and that vast majority of things atheists sue over is absolute bullshit. That's a topic for another thread though... -SD-

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 8:51:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 What does it state on his/her birth certificate??? I'm willing to bet it says he was born a 'male'. So in that sense, his documentation would say he is male - not female. Good catch, the news report says: quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/27/us/colorado-transgender-girl-school/index.html?hpt=hp_c2 Coy's passport and state-issued identification recognize her as female. "State-issued identification" should include his birth certificate but looking into it a bit more probably doesn't since he hasn't had the surgical procedure that Colorado requires. http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDPHE-CHEIS/CBON/1251617410256

WithBellsOn -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 8:59:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Fast Reply: You know, I had an opportunity to meet one of these kids. She was a delightful young woman who was leaving for Thailand that following week to have her surgery. She had identified and presented as female since an early age and was completely at home in her skin. I believe that if she had been forced by society to wait until that age to even begin the path of her transition, she would have been a very different person indeed and not for the better. I stress again: This is not roleplay. It is not living a fantasy. It is aligning your body to your brain, your heart, your spirit. The dysphoria/disconnect that being transgendered causes is so completely life disrupting that nearly 50% of all transgendered people are driven to attempt suicide and over half of them succeed. You don't have to understand it to see that there is something very serious happening to a subset of our population. If societies answer is to make it a "scarlet letter" for our kids, then a bad situation becomes even worse. QFT.

RacerJim -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 9:08:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy I'm pretty open to a lot of things, but kids in elementary school? I actually agree with CO Schools - Boys have a Penis and Girls have a Vagina. Use the bathrooms according to those definitions. If you happen to have both - well, then I guess some more thought would have to go into it. But if it's cut and dry - physically you're a boy, then use the boys room. NSNG ^5 DITTO 5^ Anyone who happens to have both, or is in transition from one to the other -- well, then I guess it's time to bring back the outhouse!

LadyPact -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 1:02:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Hello LadyP, and thanks for starting this interesting topic! If we were talking about adults here, I would be guns blazing for following the statute and following the person's gender identity for facility use...however... If I were a parent, I would desire, in pretty much all cases, to give my child a sense of normalcy, love and care. I would try to shield them from harm and do my best to mitigate hurt where possible while still acknowledging their needs. And so, while there is a fairly cut and dried law giving my kid the -right- under the law to use that restroom, I don't know that I would have gone there as my first choice if there were a unisex/other option available. It would have been a stop-gap measure however because you simply cannot keep that sort of thing bottled up forever - they are kids after all and kids love to share. Further, I would not want to perpetrate any sense of hide/deny/repress in my kid that I referenced earlier. If there was no media blow up, I would have agreed temporarily to the "other facility accommodation" while I worked with the school to find a way to resolve it so my kid could be and feel normal to her gender identity. I would have started immediately looking for another option for schooling - either another more accepting school/district, homeschooling (which I am not entirely in favor of), etc. if I was ultimately not able to come to any sort of accommodation for my child in that school. It is difficult. You don't want to give up any of your rights under the law by accepting something else, but I also would have -not- wanted the circus that has ensued around Coy's case. These are imperfect waters for which there are no charts and many rocks...so difficult to know what path is the right one. Hope that answers your question. :) It did. Thank you. I think part of My feeling on this is that, it's already difficult on the kid being different. By that, I mean that all of Coy's peers in her class probably feel like they were born in the 'right' body. Now it's specifically been broadcast that Coy was born in the wrong body. I know kids are more grown up than when I was that age but most kids don't want to have to feel different than everybody else and do they really need it shoved at them that they are different than everybody else? No, Coy's not the only one, but I'm considering what Coy feels in respect to her little world which includes school, neighbors, family, etc. General comment: I really hope Coy's education isn't suffering for this. No matter where the opinion of which restroom fits the situation, I'm sure we can all agree that it's a little sad that the kid is no longer attending school. Most kids in first grade love going to school, seeing their friends each day, and learning new things. It's a shame that's been temporarily taken away.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 2:47:24 PM)
End of the day...time for unisex bathrooms. Period. I have seen it as a growing trend. Even some clubs I have been to have non-gender specific bathrooms, just sinks and private stalls. Men tend to piss less on everything, and women spend less time loafing about in there. Solves all the problems that ail'ya. On a lighter note, much easier to have sex in anyways if you ask me ;). Or, maybe we take gender identity out of it... No man or woman on the bathrooms, just a cock and a labia.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 11:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 On a lighter note, much easier to have sex in anyways if you ask me ;). And that‘s why unisex bathrooms at one of the clubs I go to lasted all of one night.

GotSteel -> RE: Transgender discrimination suit against CO schools (3/7/2013 11:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim This is not roleplay. It is not living a fantasy. It is aligning your body to your brain, your heart, your spirit. Brain, heart and spirit seems rather redundent as the second two are just euphemisims for the brain, yes?

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