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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 5:59:44 AM   
egern


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removing mistaken post

< Message edited by egern -- 3/1/2013 6:00:23 AM >

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 6:00:27 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

The very specific meaning of treason is aiding and abetting or giving aid and comfort to the enemy

If this is the threshold of treason, one may ask why George Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld Blair Howard et al are not on trial for treason?

Al Quada never had and probably never will have a better group of recruiters than this gallery of rogues and war criminals. Compared to the damage this bunch inflicted on the USA, the UK and Australia, Bradley's transgressions seem miniscule.

It is odd that a country that claims to place so much value on freedom of speech should prosecute someone whose only crime seems to be exercising that right by bringing the crimes ordered by the above war mongers to public attention. The war in Vietnam produced Daniel Ellsberg. The war in Iraq and Afghanistan produced Manning. Just as history has vindicated Ellsberg, so it will vindicate Manning.

Manning is a genuine hero (in every sense of the word) who should be feted by his country, not humiliated and prosecuted.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 6:01:22 AM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


He`s just damm lucky that no deaths/injuries or security breaches leading to deaths/injories happened b/c of him or that could be connected to him.


No, not lucky. Wikileaks went to a lot of trouble to redact anything that looked dangerous, and in the opinion of most of the war correspondents who went through the stuff at the time, they succeeded.

But when he comes to trial (if they don't come up with some finangle to lock him away without that little formality,) expect the military to claim that terrible damaging things were caused by him, but they can't tell the court what because it's secret, so just trust us.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 6:26:45 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


He`s just damm lucky that no deaths/injuries or security breaches leading to deaths/injories happened b/c of him or that could be connected to him.


No, not lucky. Wikileaks went to a lot of trouble to redact anything that looked dangerous, and in the opinion of most of the war correspondents who went through the stuff at the time, they succeeded.

But when he comes to trial (if they don't come up with some finangle to lock him away without that little formality,) expect the military to claim that terrible damaging things were caused by him, but they can't tell the court what because it's secret, so just trust us.



Bullshit...


All one would have to have is the database/man power of the Russians or Chinese to glean the possibly damaging intel.Sorry buddy but this IS rocket science.


All that data will be there for years and may still compromise our security.


We also listened to a bunch of mental midget cowards defend dick cheney and claim that leaking/exposing Valery Plame`s ID, as well as her entire intelligence gathering operation on the premise that it was no big deal.





< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/1/2013 6:29:19 AM >


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 7:04:11 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

claim that leaking/exposing Valery Plame`s ID, as well as her entire intelligence gathering operation on the premise that it was no big deal.

Um, this is Earth.

The Plame Blame Game's Real Culprits ~CBS News

K.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 7:11:19 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.


What has Bradly Manning been accused of that violates his oath?

Revealing war crimes is not an offense. It is supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States. Even if the President orders otherwise. The Constitution does not empower those who oppose it.

quote:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Amendment 14 SECTION 3.

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.




Oh Jesus.....he did no such thing.He revealed nothing that wasn`t already known.


But he did manage to reveal a massive amount of classified data that had nothing to do with "war crimes".


This wasn`t legitimate whistle blowing.This was a wanna-be-hero who did stupid things.I couldn`t care less if he meant well.




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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 7:22:58 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

claim that leaking/exposing Valery Plame`s ID, as well as her entire intelligence gathering operation on the premise that it was no big deal.

Um, this is Earth.

The Plame Blame Game's Real Culprits ~CBS News

K.






I`ve never argued that it wasn`t a conspiracy(the real kind,the criminal kind) or that the whole bush administration wasn`t involved.


You can add Condi,gonzalez,his 2nd,3rd,and 4rth.,


This narrative is the criminal`s (bush`s) own and NOT all of what happened.It`s a "cherry-picked account"...But I know you were trying to help..



And please.....can we have the right wing stop blaming the victims.....the Wilsons.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/1/2013 7:24:58 AM >


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 7:37:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And please.....can we have the right wing stop blaming the victims.....the Wilsons.

Joseph Wilson, an ex-ambassador and National Security Council official in the Clinton and Bush I administrations, sparked the "leak" controversy in the first place by writing in The New York Times that Bush had lied in his 2003 State of the Union address about Saddam Hussein's seeking uranium in Africa for nuclear weapons. The CIA had sent Wilson to Niger in 2002 to check out precisely that point, and he claimed to have debunked it. Later, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that nearly everything Wilson wrote or said about Bush, Cheney, Iraq, and his own trip to Africa was untrue. Wilson was a fraud. "It's unfortunate that so many people took him seriously," the Washington Post editorialized sorrowfully last week.

K.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 8:03:23 AM   
Nosathro


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Just for my own curiousity does anyone here know exactly what Manning is charged with? Here is a clue.

UCMJ 104 (Aiding the enemy): 1 count. This charge carries a potential death penalty.
UCMJ 92 (Failure to obey a lawful order or regulation): 9 counts. Mostly related to computers.[2][3] Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-6(k): Forbids transferring classified info to non-secure systems
Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(3): Modifying or installing unauthorized software to a system, using it for 'unintended' purposes.
Army Regulation 25-2, para. 4-5(a)(4): Circumventing security mechanisms
Army Regulation 380-5: Improper storage of Classified Information

UCMJ 134 (General article): 24 counts. Most of these counts incorporate civilian statutes from the United States Code: 18 U.S.C. § 641: Embezzlement and Theft of Public Money, Property or Records. The government has claimed that various sets of records that Manning transferred were 'things of value' and has thus charged him under this statute.
18 U.S.C. § 793(e): This is part of the Espionage Act. The law forbids 'unauthorized persons' from taking 'national defense' information and either 'retaining' it or delivering it to 'persons not entitled to receive it'. The terminology is rather complicated and often contested in court. 793(e) exists because the McCarran Internal Security Act of 1950 modified the original 1917 Espionage Act, partly because of the Alger Hiss/Pumpkin papers case. It is also the same law used against Daniel Ellsberg and Anthony Russo in the Pentagon papers case.[4][5]
18 U.S.C. § 1030(a) 1 & 2: These are from the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986. 1030(a)(1) is sometimes called the 'Computer Espionage' law as it borrows much of its language from the Espionage Act. It was modified by the USA Patriot Act of 2001, which added it to the 'Federal Crimes of Terrorism' list, as well as making it prosecutable under RICO (Racketeering) law.[6]


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 8:15:49 AM   
Nosathro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And please.....can we have the right wing stop blaming the victims.....the Wilsons.

Joseph Wilson, an ex-ambassador and National Security Council official in the Clinton and Bush I administrations, sparked the "leak" controversy in the first place by writing in The New York Times that Bush had lied in his 2003 State of the Union address about Saddam Hussein's seeking uranium in Africa for nuclear weapons. The CIA had sent Wilson to Niger in 2002 to check out precisely that point, and he claimed to have debunked it. Later, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that nearly everything Wilson wrote or said about Bush, Cheney, Iraq, and his own trip to Africa was untrue. Wilson was a fraud. "It's unfortunate that so many people took him seriously," the Washington Post editorialized sorrowfully last week.

K.



This is what was said at the hearing

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence suggested that the evidence Wilson found could be interpreted differently:

[Wilson's] intelligence report indicated that former Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki was unaware of any contracts that had been signed between Niger and any rogue states for the sale of yellowcake while he was Prime Minister (1997-1999) or Foreign Minister (1996-1997). Mayaki said that if there had been any such contract during his tenure, he would have been aware of it. Mayaki said, however, that in June 1999, (REDACTED) businessman, approached him and insisted that Mayaki meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The intelligence report said that Mayaki interpreted 'expanding commercial relations' to mean that the delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales. The intelligence report also said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to the UN sanctions on Iraq".

Wilson has responded to criticism by observing that uranium was not actually discussed at the 1999 meeting. On Meet the Press, for example, Wilson stated:

At that meeting, uranium was not discussed. It would be a tragedy to think that we went to war over a conversation in which uranium was not discussed because the Niger official was sufficiently sophisticated to think that perhaps he might have wanted to discuss uranium at some later date

The Committe "sugguested the evidence found could be interpreted differently" Wilson was never accused by anyone of fraud nor his report was untrue.

The whole bases for the alleged Niger selling Iraq "yellow cake" was based on an Italian Intelligence Report that Saddam Hussien was attempting to by yellow cake uranium from Niger, it was later found that the Italian Intelligence Report was a forgery.

In February 2002, three different American officials had made efforts to verify the reports. The deputy commander of U.S. Armed Forces Europe, Marine General Carlton W. Fulford, Jr., went to Niger and met with the country's president, Tandja Mamadou. He concluded that, given the controls on Niger's uranium supply, there was little chance any of it could have been diverted to Iraq. His report was sent to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers. The U.S. Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, was also present at the meeting and sent similar conclusions to the State Department. CNN reported on 14 March 2003 (before invasion) that the International Atomic Energy Agency found the documents to be forged.

In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.

IAEA spokesman Mark Gwozdecky

We conclude that it is very odd indeed that the Government asserts that it was not relying on the evidence which has since been shown to have been forged, but that eight months later it is still reviewing the other evidence. The assertion "… that Iraq sought the supply of significant amounts of uranium from Africa …" should have been qualified to reflect the uncertainty

In January 2006, The New York Times revealed the existence of a memo which stated that the suggestion of uranium being sold was "unlikely" because of a host of economic, diplomatic and logistical obstacles. The memo, dated March 4, 2002, was distributed at senior levels by the office of former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and by the Defense Intelligence Agency.

In 2005, Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of counterterrorism operations at the CIA and the intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, expressed the opinion that the documents had been produced in the United States and funneled through the Italians: "The documents were fabricated by supporters of the policy in the United States. The policy being that you had to invade Iraq in order to get rid of Saddam Hussein ...."


< Message edited by Nosathro -- 3/1/2013 8:58:43 AM >

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 8:40:08 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
My opinion is that this was treason, and should have been charged as such.

I'm torn. Did he commit a crime? Yes.

Did I WANT him to commit that crime? Yes.

I see him a lot like Mark Felt. What I'd like to see here is I'd like to see him GIVEN HIS GOD DAMNED RIGHTS TO A TRIAL. Then I want him tried, convicted, and pardoned by the president for meritorious service to the country. That, of course, is not going to happen.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 8:58:58 AM   
Kirata


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The point of the link was that the White House did not leak Plame's name.

However, "when the former ambassador [Wilson] spoke to Committee staff, his description of his findings differed from the DO intelligence report and his account of information provided to him by the CIA differed from the CIA officials' accounts in some respects."

It gets deeper. But if you want to pursue it, the [redacted] documentation is here, and a full overview of U.S. intelligence regarding Iraq's nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons capabilities and delivery systems is here.

K.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 9:52:44 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And please.....can we have the right wing stop blaming the victims.....the Wilsons.

Joseph Wilson, an ex-ambassador and National Security Council official in the Clinton and Bush I administrations, sparked the "leak" controversy in the first place by writing in The New York Times that Bush had lied in his 2003 State of the Union address about Saddam Hussein's seeking uranium in Africa for nuclear weapons. The CIA had sent Wilson to Niger in 2002 to check out precisely that point, and he claimed to have debunked it. Later, the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that nearly everything Wilson wrote or said about Bush, Cheney, Iraq, and his own trip to Africa was untrue. Wilson was a fraud. "It's unfortunate that so many people took him seriously," the Washington Post editorialized sorrowfully last week.

K.




Lotz-o weasel words there.

The WS has as much credibility as the gop..........none.

And again.....Wilson was the victim....NOT the perpetrator of the treason....

please try to keep your distortions straight...

Could you link to a legitimate news source?


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 9:58:30 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


How exactly does a lowly private get access to all these so called "classified" docs, etc? I mean, seriously, if they are that secret and that important to national security, blah, blah, blah, then why was the barn door left wide open like that? Which makes me think they really werent so secret or important as the govt has tried to claim.. But then the govt has been known to fabricate shite when it suits them (like the "proof" of wmd so they could invade Iraq)..

I sorta find it funny that no one else was the least bit interested in all the info he had..



A Top Secret Security Clearance-SCI (Secret Compartmented Information) is the highest level of clearance available, IF I remember correctly. Depending on one's need to know one may be cleared for different compartmented information.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:02:58 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


The point of the link was that the White House did not leak Plame's name.

However, "when the former ambassador [Wilson] spoke to Committee staff, his description of his findings differed from the DO intelligence report and his account of information provided to him by the CIA differed from the CIA officials' accounts in some respects."

It gets deeper. But if you want to pursue it, the [redacted] documentation is here, and a full overview of U.S. intelligence regarding Iraq's nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons capabilities and delivery systems is here.

K.




They made it look like others did the leaking(for plausible deniability.....for the dopes) as well as leaking it themselves as well as "coaching"......... as well as the cover up.Big whoop..


I guess the smart guys here don`t know what the term "obstruction of justice " is or means.......obviously.

Pointing out that dick-bush were successful at obstructing justice REALLLLLLY doesn`t help their defense much.....or lessen their guilt.



Add to this that bush-dick got 4500 of our soldiers killed in part because of these crimes makes defending them that much more digesting.


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:06:34 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


The point of the link was that the White House did not leak Plame's name.

However, "when the former ambassador [Wilson] spoke to Committee staff, his description of his findings differed from the DO intelligence report and his account of information provided to him by the CIA differed from the CIA officials' accounts in some respects."

It gets deeper. But if you want to pursue it, the [redacted] documentation is here, and a full overview of U.S. intelligence regarding Iraq's nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons capabilities and delivery systems is here.

K.




They made it look like others did the leaking(for plausible deniability.....for the dopes) as well as leaking it themselves as well as "coaching"......... as well as the cover up.Big whoop..


I guess the smart guys here don`t know what the term "obstruction of justice " is or means.......obviously.

Pointing out that dick-bush were successful at obstructing justice REALLLLLLY doesn`t help their defense much.....or lessen their guilt.



Add to this that bush-dick got 4500 of our soldiers killed in part because of these crimes makes defending them that much more digesting.



Did you mean disgusting?


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:06:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

And again.....Wilson was the victim....NOT the perpetrator of the treason....

Well damn, funny how everybody thought it was his wife! Including him!

I certainly hope you intend to advise the appropriate parties.

K.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:09:53 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

They made it look like others did the leaking(for plausible deniability.....for the dopes)

Of course they did, those nasty men.

> The conspiracy theory thread is here

K.

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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:12:31 AM   
Owner59


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Just to bring the denialists up to speed.....dick has since the scandal, defended himself by say HE "declassified the information"before leaking it.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idPFHEdp-Qo

In dicks own words..... .



This isn`t the only time dick said this.


So what is it?


He never did it or yeah he did but he`s god so it don`t count (and you can play make pretend)?





Does he really think Americans are as dumb as his defenders?








< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/1/2013 10:15:31 AM >


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RE: treason? - 3/1/2013 10:18:03 AM   
JeffBC


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For the record, that is not what he said on that video.

Also for the record what he did say is hilarifying (that's my new word for the day... it's that feeling you get when you hear a politician say something so incredibly outlandish that it makes you burst out laughing until you realize they are in a position of significant power)

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