quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And right here is where everything goes to Hell in a handbasket. When your choice starts to cost me (generally speaking, nothing specific), shouldn't I have some say in that choice? Thus, if I am paying for your insurance, medications, etc., and I am against contraception for birth-control reasons, then why are you trying to force me to pay for your contraceptives that are being used solely for birth-control reasons? If you are forcing someone to do something against their beliefs, you are not allowing for the free exercise of their chosen religion.

There are many things my tax dollars go to that I disagree with. Why does this take precedence over everything else?

quote:

Birth control is sold, regardless or its use, as birth control.
Viagra has three different names.
Denying women birth control that is used for far more uses than just controlling birth should be viewed as an affront to any sane individual.

quote:

Churches are given an exemption.
There is your religious exemption.

[snip from next post]Hobby Lobby isnt a religious organization. Its a business.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

You can go right ahead and start a thread arguing about that stuff. I'll read it.

quote:

Viagra is not birth control.

quote:

And, the typical patient isn't getting it to get pregnant. It's not the same category as birth control.

quote:

That is a much stickier situation. I see your point, and I see theirs. I suppose situations like this may come down to whether or not the business is publicly held or privately held. If it's privately held, I would side with the owner(s) having the right to decide. If it's publicly held, I support the owner(s) having to follow law. I don't know what the case is for Hobby Lobby, and, to be hones, don't care. But, there it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Viagra is not birth control.

Both allows people to have sex.

quote:

And, the typical patient isn't getting it to get pregnant. It's not the same category as birth control.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Still a very huge difference there, tazzy. Do women have their identities wrapped up in their ability to not get pregnant? Some men have their identities wrapped up in their being able to use their manhood. Some can even argue that Viagra is almost a mental health benefit.

quote:

SadistDave
Maobama won the election by a pretty slim margin. The popular vote was actually pretty close. He only won by 3 1/2 percent of the popular vote. It was the EC votes that swept him into office. This mandate nonsense the Democrats are always talking does not exist

Republicans are doing their job. Like any politician on either side of the aisle, they are following the mandate of their constituents, and their constituents represent 47% of the popular vote from the last election.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Still a very huge difference there, tazzy. Do women have their identities wrapped up in their ability to not get pregnant? Some men have their identities wrapped up in their being able to use their manhood. Some can even argue that Viagra is almost a mental health benefit.

And not getting pregnant can be a physical health issue as well as a mental health issue. You think only men benefit from sex?
Flip the coin. A woman gets pregnant, and her whole life changes if she keeps the baby. School, career, future all can change. Not to mention the mental health aspects. Imagine a teen getting pregnant who has an abusive father or mother.
Moving beyond the pregnancy aspect, many women do benefit from birth control pills that are not just pregnancy related... and those pills DO help them have a better sex life.. not because they can get their freak on whenever... but because the pills actually reduce the pain associated with penetration.
For those women, yes, their bodies become a huge focus.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

SadistDave
Maobama won the election by a pretty slim margin. The popular vote was actually pretty close. He only won by 3 1/2 percent of the popular vote. It was the EC votes that swept him into office. This mandate nonsense the Democrats are always talking does not exist
Republicans are doing their job. Like any politician on either side of the aisle, they are following the mandate of their constituents, and their constituents represent 47% of the popular vote from the last election.

In democracies, winning a majority of the popular vote entitles the winner to claim a mandate from the people to enact the policies outlined in his election platform. This statement seems to me to be so self evidently valid it is virtually incontestable. It is certainly the case in every genuine democracy in the world.
Obama won c52% ie. a majority of the popular vote yet this post insists that is "nonsense" to conclude that winning a majority of the popular vote entitles Obama to claim a mandate. At the same time, the post insists that the Congressional Republicans - who received 47% ie. a minority of the popular vote - actually possess a mandate and are only "doing their job" in blocking Obama's attempts to enact the policies the US people elected him to enact.
The claims set out in the above post have it precisely the wrong way round. It appears to emanate from a logic-free zone and causes one to wonder if its author understands anything about electoral mandates. Surprisingly the post does have one saving grace - the post is saved from being absolute garbage only because it offers us an excellent example of how slavish adherence to partisan ideology trumps logic and common sense, and offers us a glimpse at the kind of intellectual gymnastics needed to rationalise that 'triumph'.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Gimme a break, tazzy. Without Viagra, some guys can't have sex at all. Period. It's not that it is painful. It's not that they wont' have to worry about getting a woman pregnant. They can't get it up. Period.

quote:

A woman still can have sex without birth control medication. There might be more risks involved, but them's the risks. If they are with a guy that's been snipped. then what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Gimme a break, tazzy. Without Viagra, some guys can't have sex at all. Period. It's not that it is painful. It's not that they wont' have to worry about getting a woman pregnant. They can't get it up. Period.

And without birth control, some women cannot have sex because the pain is too excruciating.
And, yes, they could get it up... its called... implants.

quote:

A woman still can have sex without birth control medication. There might be more risks involved, but them's the risks. If they are with a guy that's been snipped. then what?

So its perfectly all right in your book for a woman to suffer pain to have sex while we rush to make sure those poor men who cant get a hard on has one and has a fulfilling and satisfying sex life... all because someone has a MORAL problem.
This is what is happening to women. Denied a medical treatment all because of how its labeled.
Do you not see the hypocrisy in that?

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Have you not noticed that I have been very specific in my wording while backing those with a "MORAL problem?" And, I have not supported those w

quote:

How about recalling my agreement that Viagra shouldn't be covered by insurance? Nah, you've probably skimmed over that or simply forgot because it isn't within your argument.

quote:

Winning a vote does not mean that elected person has a mandate.

quote:

1. We [the USA] are not a democracy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



As is abundantly clear from SadistDave's post, the Right doesn't understand what a 'mandate' is (Hint: it is NOT a gay date!). So, there's little reason to suppose they understand what election results mean. It appears that the only part of voting process that the GOP shows any competence in is gerrymandering.

Women and womens' issues are even less understood by the Right. As their past history (of blanket opposition to any measures to advance womens' status and/or rights) and current war on women makes perfectly clear. Not that it prevents them lecturing us on what is good for us, or what our 'natural' role in the order of things is - producing children, baking apple pies and providing a compliant body for them to act out their Viagra-fuelled Don Juan fantasies.

How anyone prioritises attacking womens' reproductive rights while their country goes bankrupt, is involved in several hostile invasions of Middle eastern countries and a serious destabilising element in many others, has tens of millions unemployed, tens of millions more under-employed and c6 million under some form of "correction" (read: jail or one of the alternatives) is beyond me. But we are talking about people who think universal healthcare equates to a communist takeover of the country ......

"God told us to do it" is one justification often advanced by the electorally-challenged Right, seemingly unaware that this is the preferred excuse of many psychopathic murderers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Have you not noticed that I have been very specific in my wording while backing those with a "MORAL problem?" And, I have not supported those w

The denial of birth control is simply a MORAL issue.
What if someone had a moral issue about hiring black people? Disabled? Women? White men? Would you support that as well?

quote:

quote:

How about recalling my agreement that Viagra shouldn't be covered by insurance? Nah, you've probably skimmed over that or simply forgot because it isn't within your argument.

And YOU are missing the point that Viagra is sold under other names for other conditions, while birth control is not.
Was that convenient on your part?
And that doesnt change the situation. A hard on isnt a requirement to live a normal life. Sure, men will miss it. Many men go without one for various reasons. But its not likely to affect their day to day life.
Being in pain IS a disabling problem. But thats ok for you?

• I support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is solely birth control.
  
• I DO NOT support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is for something other than birth control.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

Seriously? You're likening the anti-birth control stance of the Catholic religion to discrimination against a person simply based on skin color, gender or physical capability? Is there a religion that discriminates against those things? Those things are not capable of being changed (okay, there is a surgical gender reassignment, but that certainly isn't the point).

quote:

You are completely missing what I am saying. Completely. Here it is:
I support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is solely birth control.
I DO NOT support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is for something other than birth control.


Is that clear enough now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I wish all the female catholic priests would speak out....oh...wait

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)