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RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 11:27:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Seriously? You're likening the anti-birth control stance of the Catholic religion to discrimination against a person simply based on skin color, gender or physical capability? Is there a religion that discriminates against those things? Those things are not capable of being changed (okay, there is a surgical gender reassignment, but that certainly isn't the point).

Seriously, are you going to tell me the MORAL objection isnt the same?
That women (gender) are not being discriminated against?
Medication is available... prescribed by the physicians.. yet women cant get it covered by insurance though its been available for a long, long time... and you see nothing wrong with that?


I see nothing wrong with allowing a Catholic organization to not cover birth control when it is prescribed for the purpose of birth control. If there was a male chemical birth control method that was covered while female chemical birth control wasn't, then you can say that Catholics are discriminating against women.

You'll most likely knock Pope Paul VI for some reason, thereby attempting to negate this written stance:
    quote:

    Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.


What a misogynistic prick, eh? How dare he blame irresponsible men for the ills of contraception! How dare he attempt to maintain a man's focus on his partner, and not solely on the man's desires!

quote:

quote:

You are completely missing what I am saying. Completely. Here it is:
I support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is solely birth control.
I DO NOT support a religious organization's ability to choose to not cover birth control medications when the purpose of the prescription is for something other than birth control.
Is that clear enough now?

And IF they had been covering it for reasons other than birth control, this wouldnt be an issue now.
So suddenly, with a requirement in place, they want to be so generous and offer it to those women who were using it all along for reasons OTHER than birth control? But not for birth control?
Screw em. Another example of "too little, too late"


You're really way off here, tazzy. So, because the Catholic Church thinks that artificial birth control is evil, and they don't want to cover the cost of contraception because it is artificial birth control, regardless of it's prescriptive goals, you can't accept that I support their option to choose for themselves? Wow. That's stunning.

Another thing from the wiki:
    quote:

    The Catholic Church has been opposed to contraception for as far back as one can historically trace.[3][4] Many early Catholic Church Fathers made statements condemning the use of contraception including John Chrysostom, Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus of Rome, Augustine of Hippo and various others.[5][6][7] Among the condemnations is one by Jerome which refers to an apparent oral form of contraception: "Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception."[8] The Catechism of the Catholic Church specifies that all sex acts must be both unitive and procreative.[9] In addition to condemning use of artificial birth control as intrinsically evil,[10] non-procreative sex acts such as mutual masturbation and anal sex are ruled out as ways to avoid pregnancy.[11]


Citation 3
Citation 4 (much of it is a repeat of 3)

According to the two citations, Hippolytus is the first reference of artificial contraception (as opposed to pulling out, masturbating, anal/oral sex) in AD 225. Now, when was the medication you're calling "birth control" created?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 11:43:21 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

You're really way off here, tazzy. So, because the Catholic Church thinks that artificial birth control is evil, and they don't want to cover the cost of contraception because it is artificial birth control, regardless of it's prescriptive goals, you can't accept that I support their option to choose for themselves? Wow. That's stunning.


No, because the Catholic Church believes the only use for birth control IS birth control, they refuse to cover, negating the use of it for multiple other reasons. Except.. wait... is it true that 28 states already require the coverage of birth control if they offer a prescription plan already?

The lies about all this are incredible. "We should have a religious freedom not to cover" Yet, some do cover. Some dont. Why? Where was the moral outrage then?

Why werent you beating the drums about ....

"We've always had contraceptive birth control included in our health care benefits," said Michelle Michaud, a labor and delivery nurse at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz, Calif. "It's something that we've come to expect for ourselves and our family."

Dominican is part of the Catholic Healthcare West System. A spokeswoman for the 40-hospital chain confirmed that it has offered the benefits since 1997.


So, explain to me... what is the moral objection again?

How is it ok for some to offer it, but not all?

Why didnt the Catholic ruling class object to all the Catholic organizations who DID offer it?

"Institutions like hospitals and universities ... you're required to include contraception coverage in your insurance plan where you include coverage for other prescription drugs, as a matter of basic gender equality," she says.

That's the result of a ruling in 2000 by the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It found that employers whose health plans offer prescription drugs and other preventive services but not contraceptives violated the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, 1978 civil rights law that amended the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

And what does contraception have to do with pregnancy discrimination? "Prescription contraception is a form of health care that is unique to women, and the consequences of the inability to be able to access contraception, those fall primarily on women," Lipton-Lubet says.

The EEOC ruling isn't technically binding unless people who are being discriminated against take action. That happened recently when some faculty members at a small Catholic college in North Carolina filed a complaint. The EEOC ruled in their favor.

What the Catholic Church's leaders are now seeking from President Obama is a broader exemption from the new rules, which would let them not offer — or stop offering — contraceptive coverage. They have the strong backing of Catholic members of Congress like Pennsylvania Republican Tim Murphy.

"The foundation of our country is not to impose laws that restrict the ability of persons to practice their faith," he said.

But Lipton-Lubet of the ACLU says this isn't a fight about religious liberty.

"What the bishops and their allies are asking for is the ability to impose their religious beliefs on people who don't share them," she said.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12/02/143022996/catholic-groups-fight-contraceptive-rule-but-many-already-offer-coverage

How can they stop offering something they never offered, and are morally against, yet allowed?

Its all bullshit. Its all political maneuvering. Its illegal.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_colleges_no_contraceptives_healthcare_policy_is_discriminatory_eeoc_charges/

Now, shall we back up to your "its not gender discrimination" claim?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 6:49:48 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

You're really way off here, tazzy. So, because the Catholic Church thinks that artificial birth control is evil, and they don't want to cover the cost of contraception because it is artificial birth control, regardless of it's prescriptive goals, you can't accept that I support their option to choose for themselves? Wow. That's stunning.

No, because the Catholic Church believes the only use for birth control IS birth control, they refuse to cover, negating the use of it for multiple other reasons.


Is the birth control pill an artificial contraceptive? Yes. Yes it is.

If it is being taken for (insert non-contraceptive medical use), is it still going to have the same contraceptive effect as if it is being taken for birth control purposes? Yes. Yes it is.

So, regardless of why someone is taking it, it's still an artificial contraceptive.

quote:

Except.. wait... is it true that 28 states already require the coverage of birth control if they offer a prescription plan already?
The lies about all this are incredible. "We should have a religious freedom not to cover" Yet, some do cover. Some dont. Why? Where was the moral outrage then?
Why werent you beating the drums about ....
"We've always had contraceptive birth control included in our health care benefits," said Michelle Michaud, a labor and delivery nurse at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz, Calif. "It's something that we've come to expect for ourselves and our family."
Dominican is part of the Catholic Healthcare West System. A spokeswoman for the 40-hospital chain confirmed that it has offered the benefits since 1997.


I'm not beating any drums now, tazzy.

quote:

So, explain to me... what is the moral objection again?
How is it ok for some to offer it, but not all?


You do understand the whole "ability to choose" thing? If a Catholic organization decides to provide coverage for birth control medicines, regardless of the reason for the prescription, that is their choice. If some choose to offer it, then, it's okay for some to offer it while others do not.

quote:

Why didnt the Catholic ruling class object to all the Catholic organizations who DID offer it?
"Institutions like hospitals and universities ... you're required to include contraception coverage in your insurance plan where you include coverage for other prescription drugs, as a matter of basic gender equality," she says.
That's the result of a ruling in 2000 by the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It found that employers whose health plans offer prescription drugs and other preventive services but not contraceptives violated the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, 1978 civil rights law that amended the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
And what does contraception have to do with pregnancy discrimination? "Prescription contraception is a form of health care that is unique to women, and the consequences of the inability to be able to access contraception, those fall primarily on women," Lipton-Lubet says.
The EEOC ruling isn't technically binding unless people who are being discriminated against take action. That happened recently when some faculty members at a small Catholic college in North Carolina filed a complaint. The EEOC ruled in their favor.
What the Catholic Church's leaders are now seeking from President Obama is a broader exemption from the new rules, which would let them not offer — or stop offering — contraceptive coverage. They have the strong backing of Catholic members of Congress like Pennsylvania Republican Tim Murphy.
"The foundation of our country is not to impose laws that restrict the ability of persons to practice their faith," he said.
But Lipton-Lubet of the ACLU says this isn't a fight about religious liberty.
"What the bishops and their allies are asking for is the ability to impose their religious beliefs on people who don't share them," she said.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12/02/143022996/catholic-groups-fight-contraceptive-rule-but-many-already-offer-coverage


Forcing someone to offer something that they find counter to their religious beliefs is imposing your religious beliefs on people who don't share them. It's one of those conundrums so prevalent in life. And, why some offer it, some don't, and why the Catholic hierarchy isn't requiring their affiliated organizations to all not cover contraceptives, I have no idea. I don't have a hotline to the Vatican and it's been over 40 years since I've been available to take a call from there. Don't ask me why the Catholic Church does what it does.

quote:

How can they stop offering something they never offered, and are morally against, yet allowed?
Its all bullshit. Its all political maneuvering. Its illegal.


They can't stop offering something they never offered. That's a stupid question.

They can stop something they have been offering. That sort of thing happens a lot.

And, re-read my statement as to how they can allow something they are morally against for that last part.

quote:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_colleges_no_contraceptives_healthcare_policy_is_discriminatory_eeoc_charges/
Now, shall we back up to your "its not gender discrimination" claim?


Yes, let's. Is contraception solely a woman's responsibility? Does contraception ever fall on the male? Is the birth control pill the only contraception the Catholic Church is against? I sure hope you find your answer there.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 7:02:40 PM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

Is the birth control pill the only contraception the Catholic Church is against?


No. They are against condoms, IUDs, and all forms of barrier/hormonal contraception. They are also against in vitro fertilization and artificial insemination.

They DO allow for Natural Family Planning that looks for physical signs of fertility (there are several forms, some are sympto-thermal, some are just thermal and some are just symptoms) that takes into account a woman's natural cycles both for avoiding and achieving pregnancy. They see sex as naturally procreative AND bonding and believe it immoral to intentionally separate them. Infertility is essentially a broken reproductive system and that is why age/menopause/natural infertility is not looked at as separating those two purposes of sex.

The Catholic Church sees NFP vs. Contraception as the difference between dieting and bulimia. Not having sex (or dieting) is refraining from a pleasurable good (sex/food) while contraception is like bulimia (taking part in the good (eating/sex) and then rejecting it (by interfering with fertility/throwing up) at the same time.

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No longer searching -- found my one and only right here on CM


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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 9:55:25 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Since your post was for DS, I wont comment.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 10:10:41 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

quote:

Is the birth control pill the only contraception the Catholic Church is against?


No. They are against condoms, IUDs, and all forms of barrier/hormonal contraception. They are also against in vitro fertilization and artificial insemination.

They DO allow for Natural Family Planning that looks for physical signs of fertility (there are several forms, some are sympto-thermal, some are just thermal and some are just symptoms) that takes into account a woman's natural cycles both for avoiding and achieving pregnancy. They see sex as naturally procreative AND bonding and believe it immoral to intentionally separate them. Infertility is essentially a broken reproductive system and that is why age/menopause/natural infertility is not looked at as separating those two purposes of sex.

The Catholic Church sees NFP vs. Contraception as the difference between dieting and bulimia. Not having sex (or dieting) is refraining from a pleasurable good (sex/food) while contraception is like bulimia (taking part in the good (eating/sex) and then rejecting it (by interfering with fertility/throwing up) at the same time.


The church basically says that sex is tied to reproduction, period, and that any act of sex has to "open to life"....NFP is allowed, but NFP also is subject to a lot of error, to be able to do it effectively means charting the cycles of periods and so forth, and it has a high failure rate. Among other things, the Catholic Church is still preaching that the world is not overpopulated, there is no such thing as overpopulation, and that God means us to 'be fruitful and multiply'. For the church itself, that means it wants the faithful to reproduce in large numbers, in part, because more numbers=more power (did you ever notice that when they write about a religious group, the first thing they announce is how many people belong to it? The Bishops in the US, with 70 million Catholics, try to claim that the faithful follow them and far too many politicians are dumb enough to believe them.

It also means as a practicing catholic that oral sex, anal sex, and kind of manual release/pleasuring, is verboten as well. Despite all the blather they have put out in recent years, the Church still is basically saying that sex is only for procreation.

The whole issue of being mandated to provide contraception coverage is not about freedom of religion, it is about where freedom of religion crosses with employment law, which includes things like discrimination and health care coverage, both of which the federal government has the right to regulate. The institutions we are talking about are not Church run, they are church affiliated, and they hire a lot more then Roman Catholics. So a church secretary could not claim the right to birth control, but someone working for Notre Dame could. The distinction is that the groups we are talking about are employers and the organization is not run directly by the church, they have their own fundraising, own boards and so forth, so are like any other employer in that regards. The 1st amendment is not above all other rights, despite what the religious try to claim, and where the right of religious freedom conflicts with other rights, it can and does have to take a secondary role. For example, suppose you work for an employer who is a Jehova's witness, should he be able to not pay for blood transfusions? If you work for an employer who is a Christian Scientist, can they totally deny you health insurance? If a company is owned by a mormon, can he claim that he only can hire mormons, because in his belief, only mormons are good enough to work for him? Where does it end?

Then, too, a lot of these Catholic institutions receive federal funding, hospitals via medicare/medicaid, universities through federal grants and such, groups like Catholic Charities where they receive federal money in contracts to provide services, and when you take the federal dollar, you play by the governments rules, you cannot claim religious freedom once you have done that.

Once a group employs people not of their faith, or is a broad based employer, the religious exemption has limits on it, in other words, as all rights do.

As far as the GOP goes, the problem is they are running out of gas. Since the late 60's, the GOP has more and more become the party of attracting votes by catering to Anger. The GOP once was the party of fiscal conservatism and was socially moderate to libertarian, which is an almost extinct thing in the current national GOP. It started with the Southern Strategy, which brought in southern whites pissed off about the civil rights laws (Johnson, when he signed the voting rights act in 1964, said this would turn the south over to the democrats, and he was right). Then, came the reagan era, where they went after the blue collar, white voters, pissed off about job losses and economic hardship that started hitting the working class in the 1970's. The GOP got this vote, by blaming the economic stagnation on liberals, and claiming that the white blue collar voters had lost jobs because of affirmative action giving jobs to blacks and women and other minorities. To further divide and conquer, they also gave a bully pulpit to the religious right, the evangelical, anti evolution, anti science types, with their holy crusade against gays and abortion....and it worked, hate often does.

What this then morphed into was, instead of wanting to really run the country, to win at any cost, as done by people like Lee Atwater and Karl Rove. They had some success with it, they scared people with Willie Horton, and then with the incredible right wing money machine, created the whole angry white people/talk radio phenomenon.

The problem is, demographics are working against them and their message is turning a lot more people off then it attracts. They are beholden to the hard right, who vote in primaries, but these same people turn everyone else off, they turn off hispanics tired of the openly racist crap of 'take back our country', they turn off independent voters, who are generally more educated and upscale, with their catering to the anti intellectual/education stance (Sarah Palin, anyone) and the backwards social vision, and they immensely turn off young people, who are tired of the Jesus freaks and the catering to the very well off that has been a GOP hallmark (only about 30% of young people id as GOP these days_.

The only reason the GOP has been able to hold on is to a large extent the way the government is structured and the way elections happen. The electoral college favors the GOP, by gerrymandering how electoral votes are given, they can manage to get electoral victories for the GOP and in many cases, it doesn't reflect the popular vote. Likewise, by drawing electoral maps that create white majority districts, they can disenfranchise minority voters and create in effect 'rotten boroughs'. Add that up to the fact that all states get 2 electoral votes, and there are a lot more small states then big ones, and it keeps the GOP in the game.


Worse, the GOP for the last 5 years has been simply trying to stop Obama from doing anything, they have offered nothing constructive (the Tea Party are a bunch of morons, their 'ideas' are based in myth and crackpot economics. Not that the budget deficits aren't real or a problem, but that simply cutting spending like they think isn't going to do much, especially since they, not surprisingly, don't want to cut what they use (medicare, SS, farm subsidies, block grants to states)...their vision was you get rid of welfare and suddenly the budget is balanced, and that isn't true.....just saying no isn't an answer, and I think a lot of people have realized this. You saw this with the fiscal cliff, when Boehner basically was powerless to negotiate a compromise because of the extremists.

People in the US don't like extremists (Obama is no flaming liberal, most of his stuff is pretty centrist), and that is what the GOP is, it is associated with Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and basically a party full of hate and intolerance whose only concern seems to be the uber rich. And if you want to see the real problem? If you looked at Romney's campaign headquarters, it could have been I like Ike in 1954, it was almost lily white, the average age of the people there was getting close to retirement, and it didn't represent the US of today. A party that bases its idea on rural, older, angry white people isn't going to last long, but they don't seem to have any ideas.

Buckley and Goldwater were right, they said that the conservatives would be in deep trouble when the loony right took on the mantle of conservatism, when ideology replaced thought, where things like compromise and discussion were replaced by a bunch of morons digging their heels in, and they were right.

Think about this one, as of the mid 1980's, the GOP actually had a chance of taking states like NJ, NY, Connecticut and California, these days they don't even bother campaigning there. In fact, the GOP actively campaigns in presidential elections in roughly I believe 35 states, and their whole strategy is gaming the electoral college, rather then trying to build a broader based party. Gaming works only so long, eventually demographics catch up to you.

BTW, their socially conservative message is falling on deaf ears. Prop 8 passed in california because the Mormons and other religious right groups dropped about 40 million dollars in scare campaigns to get it passed. Among other things, majorities of both black and hispanics support same sex marriage and gay rights, social conservatism is mostly found in the older blacks and in recent immigrants from south America, when the next generations come along, that message is going to fail, too. Even religious voters are turning their back on the GOP, s lot of evangelicals have woken up to the fact that supporting the GOP, with its ayn rand, cut taxes on the rich while gutting programs for the poor, is not exactly what Jesus would do.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/11/2013 10:21:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Is the birth control pill an artificial contraceptive? Yes. Yes it is.

If it is being taken for (insert non-contraceptive medical use), is it still going to have the same contraceptive effect as if it is being taken for birth control purposes? Yes. Yes it is.

So, regardless of why someone is taking it, it's still an artificial contraceptive.


Pill perk #1: Lower cancer risk

Taking oral contraceptives (OCs) can slash your risk for both endometrial and ovarian cancer by more than 70 percent after 12 years; even just one to five years may lower your risk by 40 percent. They work by reducing the number of times you ovulate in your lifetime: Ovulation may trigger cell changes in the ovaries that can lead to cancer. If you're worried about using the Pill for too long, relax. "You can safely take the Pill for 20 years or more," says Stephanie Teal, M.D., director of family planning at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver. Barring health issues, the only reason to stop is if you want to get pregnant.

Pill perk #2: Clearer skin

Estrogen - the female hormone found in most OCs - helps clear your skin by decreasing levels of testosterone, a male hormone that stimulates oil production. Although Ortho Tri-Cyclen is often used to treat acne, many pills, such as Yasmin or Desogen, can banish blemishes. You'll likely see results within a couple of months.

Pill perk #3: Lighter, less painful periods

When you're on the Pill, you don't ovulate, so your uterine lining doesn't build up as much. In fact, you don't have a true "period" during the placebo phase - just withdrawal bleeding, in which your uterine lining breaks down in response to the drop in hormones. So most OC takers bleed less for a shorter time, and have little or no cramping. If you want an even lighter flow, ask your doctor about Seasonique, a new pill that gives you four periods a year and helps reduce period length to three days on average.

Pill perk #4: PMS relief

Hormonal shifts during the second half of your cycle are the main cause of PMS symptoms. The Pill can provide relief by steadying hormones, but different symptoms require different pills. If breast tenderness is your complaint, an OC that is lower in estrogen (such as Mircette) is your best bet. If you want to beat bloating, try a pill (such as Yasmin or Yaz) with drospirenone, a progestin shown to help prevent fluid retention. "Use the Pill for three to four months to see if it provides the relief you're looking for," says Pelin Batur, M.D., a women's health specialist at the Cleveland Clinic Independence Family Health Center.

Pill perk #5: Endometriosis relief

Endometriosis, a condition in which uterine-lining tissue grows in other pelvic areas, can lead to scarring, severe pain, and sometimes infertility. The Pill stops the growth of tissue in other areas by reducing the hormones that cause the lining to build up.

Pill perk #6: Fewer periods

Women on the Pill can reschedule their period so it doesn't come at inconvenient times. To do so, make sure you're on a monophasic formula, which contains pills in only two different colors: one for the active pills and one for the placebos. You simply keep taking active pills (typically up to three months) and switch to placebos when you're ready to menstruate. "I often prescribe an extra pack of pills," says Teal, "so a woman can dip into her spare to postpone a period."

Pill perk #7: Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) relief

While the Pill doesn't cure PCOS - a hormonal disorder that triggers irregular cycles, excessive hair growth, and acne - it does offer symptom relief to sufferers. Experts recommend women with PCOS take a pill with 30 to 35 mcg of estrogen, since estrogen helps regulate periods, and combats skin problems and unwanted hair growth.


http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/features/other-reasons-to-take-the-pill?page=2

Some pretty serious conditions listed there... and they all are treated with birth control.

Pelvic pain
A major symptom of endometriosis is recurring pelvic pain. The pain can range from mild to severe cramping that occurs on both sides of the pelvis, in the lower back and rectal area, and even down the legs. The amount of pain a woman feels correlates poorly with the extent or stage (1 through 4) of endometriosis, with some women having little or no pain despite having extensive endometriosis or endometriosis with scarring, while other women may have severe pain even though they have only a few small areas of endometriosis.[3] Symptoms of endometriosis-related pain may include:[4]

dysmenorrhea – painful, sometimes disabling cramps during menses; pain may get worse over time (progressive pain), also lower back pains linked to the pelvis
chronic pelvic pain – typically accompanied by lower back pain or abdominal pain
dyspareunia – painful sex
dysuria – urinary urgency, frequency, and sometimes painful voiding

Throbbing, gnawing, and dragging pain to the legs are reported more commonly by women with endometriosis.[5] Compared with women with superficial endometriosis, those with deep disease appear to be more likely to report shooting rectal pain and a sense of their insides being pulled down.[citation needed] Individual pain areas and pain intensity appears to be unrelated to the surgical diagnosis, and the area of pain unrelated to area of endometriosis.[citation needed]
Endometriosis lesions react to hormonal stimulation and may "bleed" at the time of menstruation. The blood accumulates locally, causes swelling, and triggers inflammatory responses with the activation of cytokines. This process may cause pain. Pain can also occur from adhesions (internal scar tissue) binding internal organs to each other, causing organ dislocation. Fallopian tubes, ovaries, the uterus, the bowels, and the bladder can be bound together in ways that are painful on a daily basis, not just during menstrual periods.[citation needed]

Also, endometriotic lesions can develop their own nerve supply, thereby creating a direct and two-way interaction between lesions and the central nervous system, potentially producing a variety of individual differences in pain that can, in some women, become independent of the disease itself.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endometriosis#Signs_and_symptoms

Before you start insisting that birth control (labeled such ONLY because thats the ONLY name drug companies have given it) you need to realize that there are MANY medications on the market with a primary use, and many secondary uses.

Aspirin for example. Relieves pain. Primary. Also helps prevent heart attacks, a secondary. Bet they dont question it being prescribed to an individual who was diagnosed with diabetes. In fact, I know they dont. Its the "standard" treatment now.

There are many meds like that on the market. But the one they want to deny is BC.

quote:

You do understand the whole "ability to choose" thing? If a Catholic organization decides to provide coverage for birth control medicines, regardless of the reason for the prescription, that is their choice. If some choose to offer it, then, it's okay for some to offer it while others do not.


quote:

Forcing someone to offer something that they find counter to their religious beliefs is imposing your religious beliefs on people who don't share them. It's one of those conundrums so prevalent in life. And, why some offer it, some don't, and why the Catholic hierarchy isn't requiring their affiliated organizations to all not cover contraceptives, I have no idea. I don't have a hotline to the Vatican and it's been over 40 years since I've been available to take a call from there. Don't ask me why the Catholic Church does what it does.


Since when did religious beliefs get a special treatment in business matters? Go to a thousand deli's. Each one has to run by the state's standards. The fact that some are kosher suddenly means they dont have to run by those standards? Of course not. They add the kosher aspect on top. Each one has to run by the law. What they do after meeting the law is on them, provided they dont break the law while adding the extras.

And, if you dont understand why, why are you backing this? Why are you backing an organization on birth control issues that doesnt even allow its priests to get married simply because the Church wanted the property of those priests and nuns when they died?

quote:

They can't stop offering something they never offered. That's a stupid question.


Yes they did.

"We've always had contraceptive birth control included in our health care benefits," said Michelle Michaud, a labor and delivery nurse at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz, Calif. "It's something that we've come to expect for ourselves and our family."

Dominican is part of the Catholic Healthcare West System. A spokeswoman for the 40-hospital chain confirmed that it has offered the benefits since 1997.


quote:

Yes, let's. Is contraception solely a woman's responsibility? Does contraception ever fall on the male? Is the birth control pill the only contraception the Catholic Church is against? I sure hope you find your answer there.


A condom has two uses... prevent pregnancy and prevent STD transmission. And, wow, that ban went by the way side for STD transmission even though condoms were used, primarily, for pregnancy prevention. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 5:44:42 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Is the birth control pill an artificial contraceptive? Yes. Yes it is.
If it is being taken for (insert non-contraceptive medical use), is it still going to have the same contraceptive effect as if it is being taken for birth control purposes? Yes. Yes it is.
So, regardless of why someone is taking it, it's still an artificial contraceptive.

Some pretty serious conditions listed there... and they all are treated with birth control.
Before you start insisting that birth control (labeled such ONLY because thats the ONLY name drug companies have given it) you need to realize that there are MANY medications on the market with a primary use, and many secondary uses.
Aspirin for example. Relieves pain. Primary. Also helps prevent heart attacks, a secondary. Bet they dont question it being prescribed to an individual who was diagnosed with diabetes. In fact, I know they dont. Its the "standard" treatment now.
There are many meds like that on the market. But the one they want to deny is BC.


Yes, I know there are primary and secondary uses of medications (as well as side effects that are neither primary nor secondary). You are continuing to push me into the Catholic box where I do not belong. I am not a Catholic, but I do support their right to choose whether to cover or not cover birth control when the sole use is for pregnancy prevention.

I don't dispute any of the "Pill Perks" you posted. I already knew of them, and, not surprisingly, you didn't get what I was saying. To the Catholic Church, use of a contraceptive, regardless of the reason why it's being used [primary use], is still use of a contraceptive and it still prevents pregnancy [side effect] (within reason; no method is infallible... er, I mean perfect ). This is why the Catholic Church is against covering contraceptives.

quote:

quote:

You do understand the whole "ability to choose" thing? If a Catholic organization decides to provide coverage for birth control medicines, regardless of the reason for the prescription, that is their choice. If some choose to offer it, then, it's okay for some to offer it while others do not.

quote:

Forcing someone to offer something that they find counter to their religious beliefs is imposing your religious beliefs on people who don't share them. It's one of those conundrums so prevalent in life. And, why some offer it, some don't, and why the Catholic hierarchy isn't requiring their affiliated organizations to all not cover contraceptives, I have no idea. I don't have a hotline to the Vatican and it's been over 40 years since I've been available to take a call from there. Don't ask me why the Catholic Church does what it does.

Since when did religious beliefs get a special treatment in business matters? Go to a thousand deli's. Each one has to run by the state's standards. The fact that some are kosher suddenly means they dont have to run by those standards? Of course not. They add the kosher aspect on top. Each one has to run by the law. What they do after meeting the law is on them, provided they dont break the law while adding the extras.


Do the state standards require kosher deli's to do something that is against kosher requirements? If not, then that makes absolutely no difference. Now, what do you think would happen if a state standard decided that every deli was required to sell pork products? Or, a government rule requiring all grocery stores, even those of specific ethnic (in this example Indian) products to sell beef products? There is a pizzeria in my area that is owned by a Muslim. The pepperoni they use is all beef. They don't have pork sausage or bacon, either. Wonder what the outcry would be if Big Gov came down and ruled that all pizzerias had to offer pork products for their pizzas. You'll side with Big Gov, won't you?

quote:

And, if you dont understand why, why are you backing this? Why are you backing an organization on birth control issues that doesnt even allow its priests to get married simply because the Church wanted the property of those priests and nuns when they died?


Were men and women forced, without their consent, to enter the priesthood or convent? If not, then, that is the choice of those individuals. Shouldn't you follow the rules of your employer when you are the one that chooses to work for that employer and the rules are known ahead of time?

quote:

quote:

They can't stop offering something they never offered. That's a stupid question.

Yes they did.
"We've always had contraceptive birth control included in our health care benefits," said Michelle Michaud, a labor and delivery nurse at Dominican Hospital in Santa Cruz, Calif. "It's something that we've come to expect for ourselves and our family."
Dominican is part of the Catholic Healthcare West System. A spokeswoman for the 40-hospital chain confirmed that it has offered the benefits since 1997.


How is it you're missing things? If they never offered it, they can't stop offering it. In the situation you've quoted, for the second time, they were offering it. Your quoted situation does not fall under the conditions you yourself set up!

quote:

quote:

Yes, let's. Is contraception solely a woman's responsibility? Does contraception ever fall on the male? Is the birth control pill the only contraception the Catholic Church is against? I sure hope you find your answer there.

A condom has two uses... prevent pregnancy and prevent STD transmission. And, wow, that ban went by the way side for STD transmission even though condoms were used, primarily, for pregnancy prevention. Shot yourself in the foot with that one.


Um, source for that?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 8:09:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Is it possible the Catholic Church is in a tizzy over covering contraceptives, when they have so many young boys waiting for molestation?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 8:43:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Um, source for that?


Source for what? The allowance of condoms?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8148944/The-Pope-drops-Catholic-ban-on-condoms-in-historic-shift.html

Source for primary use of condoms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#History

quote:

To the Catholic Church, use of a contraceptive, regardless of the reason why it's being used [primary use], is still use of a contraceptive and it still prevents pregnancy [side effect] (within reason; no method is infallible... er, I mean perfect ). This is why the Catholic Church is against covering contraceptives.


And yet it agrees with the use of condoms.

quote:

Do the state standards require kosher deli's to do something that is against kosher requirements? If not, then that makes absolutely no difference. Now, what do you think would happen if a state standard decided that every deli was required to sell pork products? Or, a government rule requiring all grocery stores, even those of specific ethnic (in this example Indian) products to sell beef products? There is a pizzeria in my area that is owned by a Muslim. The pepperoni they use is all beef. They don't have pork sausage or bacon, either. Wonder what the outcry would be if Big Gov came down and ruled that all pizzerias had to offer pork products for their pizzas. You'll side with Big Gov, won't you?


No, your analogy is off. No one is requiring the CC to sell anything. They are being required to follow a rule.

And, ya know, its really funny, all this legal mumbo jumbo. In the midst of its own scandal about molestation and rape of children, the church wants to cry "moral objections"?

quote:

Were men and women forced, without their consent, to enter the priesthood or convent? If not, then, that is the choice of those individuals. Shouldn't you follow the rules of your employer when you are the one that chooses to work for that employer and the rules are known ahead of time?


Thats why we have laws, darlin. They change with the times, along with employer rules. Or should we go back to the days of children running in between weaving looms because, after all, they were hired, they knew the rules when they and their parents went to work. And, before you complain children are different, they had their parents consent to do so.

quote:

How is it you're missing things? If they never offered it, they can't stop offering it. In the situation you've quoted, for the second time, they were offering it. Your quoted situation does not fall under the conditions you yourself set up!


A Catholic based hospital system IS offering birth control as part of their insurance prescription plan.

How can a Catholic system offer that insurance (see quote again for the confirmation of offering it since 1997) if the Church has such a "moral" issue with doing so?



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 10:47:48 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Um, source for that?

Source for what? The allowance of condoms?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8148944/The-Pope-drops-Catholic-ban-on-condoms-in-historic-shift.html


Sure hope you read that article, "darlin'." It was made pretty damn clear that the use of condoms to prevent transmission of HIV/AIDS is acceptable.
    quote:

    Asked whether “the Catholic Church is not fundamentally against the use of condoms,” he replied: “It of course does not see it as a real and moral solution. In certain cases, where the intention is to reduce the risk of infection, it can nevertheless be a first step on the way to another, more humane sexuality.”
    He stressed that abstinence was the best policy in fighting the disease but in some circumstances it was better for a condom to be used if it protected human life.


Notice that little bit at the end, too? You know, the part where it would be "better for a condom to be used if it protected human life."

I knew the CC's stance on condoms and contraception prior to your mention condoms, btw. I actually looked it up before asking you if contraception was solely a woman's responsibility.

Another interesting article shows the benefits of condom use for prevention of AIDS in Africa and other developing countries. The article even puts more responsibility for the AIDS epidemic on men, and that allowing condom use is a pro-female practice there.

quote:

quote:

To the Catholic Church, use of a contraceptive, regardless of the reason why it's being used [primary use], is still use of a contraceptive and it still prevents pregnancy [side effect] (within reason; no method is infallible... er, I mean perfect ). This is why the Catholic Church is against covering contraceptives.

And yet it agrees with the use of condoms.
quote:

Do the state standards require kosher deli's to do something that is against kosher requirements? If not, then that makes absolutely no difference. Now, what do you think would happen if a state standard decided that every deli was required to sell pork products? Or, a government rule requiring all grocery stores, even those of specific ethnic (in this example Indian) products to sell beef products? There is a pizzeria in my area that is owned by a Muslim. The pepperoni they use is all beef. They don't have pork sausage or bacon, either. Wonder what the outcry would be if Big Gov came down and ruled that all pizzerias had to offer pork products for their pizzas. You'll side with Big Gov, won't you?

No, your analogy is off. No one is requiring the CC to sell anything. They are being required to follow a rule.


A mandate to sell pork products isn't a rule?!? And, lest you think you can continue this false argument, what if the rule was that each synagogue had to buy ham sandwiches for their employees, if their employees wanted ham sandwiches? Would that be acceptable?

quote:

And, ya know, its really funny, all this legal mumbo jumbo. In the midst of its own scandal about molestation and rape of children, the church wants to cry "moral objections"?


Are the scandalous actions continuing? Offer proof, if you claim it is. Are you going to make the claim that the Catholic Church isn't going to have any moral standing, ever, because of prior immoral actions? Be very careful when you answer that.

quote:

quote:

Were men and women forced, without their consent, to enter the priesthood or convent? If not, then, that is the choice of those individuals. Shouldn't you follow the rules of your employer when you are the one that chooses to work for that employer and the rules are known ahead of time?

Thats why we have laws, darlin. They change with the times, along with employer rules. Or should we go back to the days of children running in between weaving looms because, after all, they were hired, they knew the rules when they and their parents went to work. And, before you complain children are different, they had their parents consent to do so.


I won't complain that children are different. Though, it is interesting that you are planting your feet on the grounds that the parents are able to give consent for the children. Weren't you one of the ones that claimed parents can't do that if the state disagrees?

quote:

quote:

How is it you're missing things? If they never offered it, they can't stop offering it. In the situation you've quoted, for the second time, they were offering it. Your quoted situation does not fall under the conditions you yourself set up!

A Catholic based hospital system IS offering birth control as part of their insurance prescription plan.
How can a Catholic system offer that insurance (see quote again for the confirmation of offering it since 1997) if the Church has such a "moral" issue with doing so?


So, you now see that the hospital in your quotation was/is offering birth control coverage, so using it as an example that a Catholic organization can't stop providing something it isn't providing, isn't accurate.

And, to answer your question regarding why a Catholic organization or a Catholic-affiliated organization was/is offering birth control coverage even though it's not acceptable by the Vatican, that's not information I am privy to. Call the hospital and/or the Vatican.

Do I have a problem with a Catholic-affiliated or a Catholic organization choosing to offer coverage for birth control prescribed solely for birth control reasons? Not at all. I support their right to choose. If their choice to provide coverage, great. If their choice is to not provide coverage, great. I do not support a Catholic organization or a Catholic-affiliated organization not providing coverage for birth control medications prescribed for a purpose other than birth control.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 10:54:24 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

NFP also is subject to a lot of error, to be able to do it effectively means charting the cycles of periods and so forth, and it has a high failure rate.



Actually, its failure rate is similar to that of hormonal birth control pills. The problem is it requires both partners to communicate well.

_____________________________

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(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 10:59:28 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Um, source for that?


Source for what? The allowance of condoms?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/8148944/The-Pope-drops-Catholic-ban-on-condoms-in-historic-shift.html

Source for primary use of condoms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#History

quote:

To the Catholic Church, use of a contraceptive, regardless of the reason why it's being used [primary use], is still use of a contraceptive and it still prevents pregnancy [side effect] (within reason; no method is infallible... er, I mean perfect ). This is why the Catholic Church is against covering contraceptives.


And yet it agrees with the use of condoms.



Not quite. From the article:

quote:

“There may be justified individual cases, for example when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be … a first bit of responsibility, to redevelop the understanding that not everything is permitted and that one may not do everything one wishes.

“But it is not the proper way to deal with the horror of HIV infection.”




Using a condom to protect someone else from HIV when you are already doing something immoral is better than compounding that immorality by risking another's life. This is what the Pope was saying. The use of the condom shows that you aren't thinking only of yourself and your own gratification. It is a start to seeing the other person as a person and not just a means to an orgasm.

_____________________________

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 11:05:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Are the scandalous actions continuing? Offer proof, if you claim it is. Are you going to make the claim that the Catholic Church isn't going to have any moral standing, ever, because of prior immoral actions? Be very careful when you answer that.

The constant, continuous and ongoing scandals since the inception of this sewer of a scam of religion were they to walk the absolute straight and narrow for the next two centuries, they might come up to a 40% chance of moral standing. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 1:20:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Sure hope you read that article, "darlin'." It was made pretty damn clear that the use of condoms to prevent transmission of HIV/AIDS is acceptable.


Which is a secondary use... darlin ... yet birth control coverage even for endometriosis is disallowed.

quote:

Notice that little bit at the end, too? You know, the part where it would be "better for a condom to be used if it protected human life."

I knew the CC's stance on condoms and contraception prior to your mention condoms, btw. I actually looked it up before asking you if contraception was solely a woman's responsibility.

Another interesting article shows the benefits of condom use for prevention of AIDS in Africa and other developing countries. The article even puts more responsibility for the AIDS epidemic on men, and that allowing condom use is a pro-female practice there.


Do you know that untreated emdometriosis can lead to sterility in women?

So lets let men use condoms, but not let women use a medication to actually help them get back to the point of getting pregnant.

Dont forget, part of my bitch with all this is that the Church COULD have offered it to those who needed it medically for reasons OTHER than birth control, just like condoms.

quote:

A mandate to sell pork products isn't a rule?!? And, lest you think you can continue this false argument, what if the rule was that each synagogue had to buy ham sandwiches for their employees, if their employees wanted ham sandwiches? Would that be acceptable?


The analogy that would match would be making the Church sell satanic material. Someone no one is trying to do.

quote:

Are the scandalous actions continuing? Offer proof, if you claim it is. Are you going to make the claim that the Catholic Church isn't going to have any moral standing, ever, because of prior immoral actions? Be very careful when you answer that.


I dont care of they are continuing or not. The scarring all those kids have suffered as a result are still occuring. You are actually going to try and fuckign excuse this because its no longer happening??????

Are you fucking kidding me????

When the man who was in charge of covering all that shit up just RESIGNED?????

How long ago does it have to have happened before it actually counts in DS's lil world?


PHILADELPHIA, Jan 30 (Reuters) - A priest and a former parochial school teacher were found guilty on Wednesday of sexually attacking a former altar boy, the latest chapter in the child sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

Rev. Charles Engelhardt, 66, faces the possibility of 37 years in prison, and Bernard Shero, 50, faces a maximum sentence of 57 years in prison following the guilty verdicts by a jury in Common Pleas Court in Philadelphia.

Engelhardt and Shero were accused of molesting an altar boy who was 10 years old at the time at St. Jerome's parish in the Northeast section of Philadelphia.

A grand jury report in 2011, which detailed child sex abuse in the archdiocese, the nation's sixth largest with 1.5 million members, said the altar boy was "in effect passed around" from one molester to another in 1998 and 1999.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/philadelphia-sex-abuse-verdict-priest-and-former-teacher-found-guilty_n_2585318.html

quote:

I won't complain that children are different. Though, it is interesting that you are planting your feet on the grounds that the parents are able to give consent for the children. Weren't you one of the ones that claimed parents can't do that if the state disagrees?


of course I am. Your argument indicates that the status quo should always remain.

quote:

Shouldn't you follow the rules of your employer when you are the one that chooses to work for that employer and the rules are known ahead of time?


Those kids chose, the parents saud yes, how DARE the state interfer.

As far as the comments about people wanting to join the priesthood, you really dont know much about that aspect of catholicism.

quote:

So, you now see that the hospital in your quotation was/is offering birth control coverage, so using it as an example that a Catholic organization can't stop providing something it isn't providing, isn't accurate.


quote:

They can't stop offering something they never offered. That's a stupid question.


Both of those your posts.

The catholic system was/is offering it. Tell me, if they win this mandate, how fast will state laws change and systems such as this hospital will be ordered to discontinue the options?

In essence, they will stop offering something they have offered before.

quote:

And, to answer your question regarding why a Catholic organization or a Catholic-affiliated organization was/is offering birth control coverage even though it's not acceptable by the Vatican, that's not information I am privy to. Call the hospital and/or the Vatican.


Pst... state law.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 1:35:16 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Using a condom to protect someone else from HIV when you are already doing something immoral is better than compounding that immorality by risking another's life. This is what the Pope was saying. The use of the condom shows that you aren't thinking only of yourself and your own gratification. It is a start to seeing the other person as a person and not just a means to an orgasm.


Yes, therefore allowing the use.

According to the church, risky behavior is any sexual behavior outside of matrimony.

It is in cases in which sexual expression is sought outside sacramental marriage, or in which the procreative function of sexual expression within marriage is deliberately frustrated, that the Catholic Church expresses grave moral concern.

Soooo.. lets prevent aids transmission among those seeking risky behavior, but deny a medical treatment to women who may already be in a monogamous marriage who suffers from conditions such as endometriosis.

http://women.webmd.com/endometriosis/birth-control-pills-for-endometriosis

Using birth control hormones for 5 or more years lowers ovarian cancer risk (endometriosis increases ovarian cancer risk).4

For those who still arent sure, endometriosis typically leads to infertility. The idea that BC pills for these women are used as a birth control method is pretty laughable.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 2:36:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

Sure hope you read that article, "darlin'." It was made pretty damn clear that the use of condoms to prevent transmission of HIV/AIDS is acceptable.

Which is a secondary use... darlin ... yet birth control coverage even for endometriosis is disallowed.
quote:

Notice that little bit at the end, too? You know, the part where it would be "better for a condom to be used if it protected human life."
I knew the CC's stance on condoms and contraception prior to your mention condoms, btw. I actually looked it up before asking you if contraception was solely a woman's responsibility.
Another interesting article shows the benefits of condom use for prevention of AIDS in Africa and other developing countries. The article even puts more responsibility for the AIDS epidemic on men, and that allowing condom use is a pro-female practice there.

Do you know that untreated emdometriosis can lead to sterility in women?
So lets let men use condoms, but not let women use a medication to actually help them get back to the point of getting pregnant.
Dont forget, part of my bitch with all this is that the Church COULD have offered it to those who needed it medically for reasons OTHER than birth control, just like condoms.


This is so fucking hilarious. The reason, had you fucking read the article, that condoms for HIV/AIDS protection was being pushed for (esp. in Africa and other third-world/developing countries) was to save women and girls. According to the article, the mine industry separates the husbands from their families to work in the mines. There are brothels for the men, which is typically where they contract AIDS. When they do get to go back home, they spread it. According to the article, the typical new HIV/AIDS cases are monogamous, married women. And, if HIV/AIDS is at risk to be spread from one person to another, only one person needs to wear protection (unless they both pitch and catch) to lower the risk of infection. Thus, if a man is HIV positive and puts on a condom, the risk of spreading the virus is greatly reduced, regardless of the gender of his mate. That means, it's also protecting women.

quote:

quote:

A mandate to sell pork products isn't a rule?!? And, lest you think you can continue this false argument, what if the rule was that each synagogue had to buy ham sandwiches for their employees, if their employees wanted ham sandwiches? Would that be acceptable?

The analogy that would match would be making the Church sell satanic material. Someone no one is trying to do.


No it's not. Both instances are attempting to force a religious-based organization to do something that is against it's faith.

quote:

quote:

Are the scandalous actions continuing? Offer proof, if you claim it is. Are you going to make the claim that the Catholic Church isn't going to have any moral standing, ever, because of prior immoral actions? Be very careful when you answer that.

I dont care of they are continuing or not. The scarring all those kids have suffered as a result are still occuring. You are actually going to try and fuckign excuse this because its no longer happening??????
Are you fucking kidding me????
When the man who was in charge of covering all that shit up just RESIGNED?????
How long ago does it have to have happened before it actually counts in DS's lil world?
PHILADELPHIA, Jan 30 (Reuters) - A priest and a former parochial school teacher were found guilty on Wednesday of sexually attacking a former altar boy, the latest chapter in the child sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia.
Rev. Charles Engelhardt, 66, faces the possibility of 37 years in prison, and Bernard Shero, 50, faces a maximum sentence of 57 years in prison following the guilty verdicts by a jury in Common Pleas Court in Philadelphia.
Engelhardt and Shero were accused of molesting an altar boy who was 10 years old at the time at St. Jerome's parish in the Northeast section of Philadelphia.
A grand jury report in 2011, which detailed child sex abuse in the archdiocese, the nation's sixth largest with 1.5 million members, said the altar boy was "in effect passed around" from one molester to another in 1998 and 1999.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/philadelphia-sex-abuse-verdict-priest-and-former-teacher-found-guilty_n_2585318.html


That is a guilty verdict of a crime that was committed 14-15 years ago. Those actions aren't still going on, in that case, now, are they? I did not excuse the Catholic Church from their responsibilities in the pedophilia cases. Law enforcement, apparently, is doing a pretty good job, don'tcha think? You're acting as if the pedophilia scandal means that they can't have any other moral objections. Well, guess what. You're wrong. That being the case, wouldn't the Crusades or the Inquisition have already taken care of the Church's moral objections?

quote:

quote:

I won't complain that children are different. Though, it is interesting that you are planting your feet on the grounds that the parents are able to give consent for the children. Weren't you one of the ones that claimed parents can't do that if the state disagrees?

of course I am. Your argument indicates that the status quo should always remain.


That's ridiculous. Nice strawwoman argument.

quote:

quote:

Shouldn't you follow the rules of your employer when you are the one that chooses to work for that employer and the rules are known ahead of time?

Those kids chose, the parents saud yes, how DARE the state interfer.
As far as the comments about people wanting to join the priesthood, you really dont know much about that aspect of catholicism.


Nice allegation. Would you like to expound with at least a modicum of detail?

quote:

quote:

So, you now see that the hospital in your quotation was/is offering birth control coverage, so using it as an example that a Catholic organization can't stop providing something it isn't providing, isn't accurate.

quote:

They can't stop offering something they never offered. That's a stupid question.

Both of those your posts.
The catholic system was/is offering it. Tell me, if they win this mandate, how fast will state laws change and systems such as this hospital will be ordered to discontinue the options?
In essence, they will stop offering something they have offered before.
quote:

And, to answer your question regarding why a Catholic organization or a Catholic-affiliated organization was/is offering birth control coverage even though it's not acceptable by the Vatican, that's not information I am privy to. Call the hospital and/or the Vatican.

Pst... state law.


You posted this in Post#82:
    quote:

    How can they stop offering something they never offered, and are morally against, yet allowed?
    Its all bullshit. Its all political maneuvering. Its illegal.


Your question. My answer was that they can not stop offering something they never offered. Do you dispute that they can stop offering something they never offered? Some kind of moebius logic going on there?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 3:05:25 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

This is so fucking hilarious. The reason, had you fucking read the article, that condoms for HIV/AIDS protection was being pushed for (esp. in Africa and other third-world/developing countries) was to save women and girls. According to the article, the mine industry separates the husbands from their families to work in the mines. There are brothels for the men, which is typically where they contract AIDS. When they do get to go back home, they spread it. According to the article, the typical new HIV/AIDS cases are monogamous, married women. And, if HIV/AIDS is at risk to be spread from one person to another, only one person needs to wear protection (unless they both pitch and catch) to lower the risk of infection. Thus, if a man is HIV positive and puts on a condom, the risk of spreading the virus is greatly reduced, regardless of the gender of his mate. That means, it's also protecting women.


Lame excuse. No one said women dont get the hiv virus from men. You have yet to address the rest of my comment.

quote:

Do you know that untreated emdometriosis can lead to sterility in women?
So lets let men use condoms, but not let women use a medication to actually help them get back to the point of getting pregnant.
Dont forget, part of my bitch with all this is that the Church COULD have offered it to those who needed it medically for reasons OTHER than birth control, just like condoms.


quote:

No it's not. Both instances are attempting to force a religious-based organization to do something that is against it's faith.


Treating a medical condition is against its faith? You bet inform the Vatican of that so they can close down all those hospitals they run.

Again, I am not referring to preventing pregnancy. I am speaking of treating a valid medical condition that has nothing to do with pregnancy.

quote:

That is a guilty verdict of a crime that was committed 14-15 years ago. Those actions aren't still going on, in that case, now, are they?


1 ) Are you sure they arent?

2) Those in power at the time to control the damage are still in power, and the head ring leader just resigned who helped to hide so many. Yet they want to hide behind "morality"?

quote:

Law enforcement, apparently, is doing a pretty good job, don'tcha think?


Yep, despite the best efforts of the Church to protect them.

quote:

You're acting as if the pedophilia scandal means that they can't have any other moral objections. Well, guess what. You're wrong. That being the case, wouldn't the Crusades or the Inquisition have already taken care of the Church's moral objections?


Sorry, you cant haide on a moral ground while screaming about other moral grounds. Hypocrisy at its best. You are starting to sound like a politician who is screaming about Clinton's blow job while having affairs of your own.

quote:

Nice allegation. Would you like to expound with at least a modicum of detail?


You are the one backing the Church on this issue. You tell me. Why do so many join the priesthood? lol... I remember growing up, I had an Italian friend and I would visit her house often. Her grandmother would start on the younger grandson about how he had to join the priesthood, how it would soothe her soul and bring a blessing upon the family. Ect ect ect.

If you need a source for that ....

http://www.brooklynpriests.org/families/familyLauricello.html

quote:

How can they stop offering something they never offered, and are morally against, yet allowed?
Its all bullshit. Its all political maneuvering. Its illegal.


The Catholic Church never sanctioned the offering, yet many systems ran under the Church do offer that.

Quite a hypocritical stance, wouldnt you say?

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 3:36:08 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

This is so fucking hilarious. The reason, had you fucking read the article, that condoms for HIV/AIDS protection was being pushed for (esp. in Africa and other third-world/developing countries) was to save women and girls. According to the article, the mine industry separates the husbands from their families to work in the mines. There are brothels for the men, which is typically where they contract AIDS. When they do get to go back home, they spread it. According to the article, the typical new HIV/AIDS cases are monogamous, married women. And, if HIV/AIDS is at risk to be spread from one person to another, only one person needs to wear protection (unless they both pitch and catch) to lower the risk of infection. Thus, if a man is HIV positive and puts on a condom, the risk of spreading the virus is greatly reduced, regardless of the gender of his mate. That means, it's also protecting women.

Lame excuse. No one said women dont get the hiv virus from men. You have yet to address the rest of my comment.


lmao, so not the point. And, had you read the article, you'd have also noticed that in many cases, married women in Africa have little rights and are coerced physically, mentally and/or emotionally to have intercourse. No recourse. Hubby have HIV? Fuck him. No. Really. Go fuck him.

quote:

quote:

Do you know that untreated emdometriosis can lead to sterility in women?
So lets let men use condoms, but not let women use a medication to actually help them get back to the point of getting pregnant.
Dont forget, part of my bitch with all this is that the Church COULD have offered it to those who needed it medically for reasons OTHER than birth control, just like condoms.

quote:

No it's not. Both instances are attempting to force a religious-based organization to do something that is against it's faith.

Treating a medical condition is against its faith? You bet inform the Vatican of that so they can close down all those hospitals they run.
Again, I am not referring to preventing pregnancy. I am speaking of treating a valid medical condition that has nothing to do with pregnancy.


Jesus, tazzy, you're all over the fucking place. If the Catholic Church is against artificial contraception because it is against it's faith, then, coverage for contraception not being there isn't that big of a shock, is it? It shouldn't be. Logic will tell you that it wouldn't be covered.

quote:

quote:

That is a guilty verdict of a crime that was committed 14-15 years ago. Those actions aren't still going on, in that case, now, are they?

1 ) Are you sure they arent?


Sure, ask me the same question I asked you. Nice try.

quote:

2) Those in power at the time to control the damage are still in power, and the head ring leader just resigned who helped to hide so many. Yet they want to hide behind "morality"?
quote:

Law enforcement, apparently, is doing a pretty good job, don'tcha think?

Yep, despite the best efforts of the Church to protect them.
quote:

You're acting as if the pedophilia scandal means that they can't have any other moral objections. Well, guess what. You're wrong. That being the case, wouldn't the Crusades or the Inquisition have already taken care of the Church's moral objections?

Sorry, you cant haide on a moral ground while screaming about other moral grounds. Hypocrisy at its best. You are starting to sound like a politician who is screaming about Clinton's blow job while having affairs of your own.

You did not just call me a Gingrich, did you?!?!?

Did the Church fuck up in the pedophilia scandal? Absolutely. Does this mean the Church has no moral grounds for anything else? Absolutely not. Yes, there is a dichotomy here, but the Church isn't railing against pedophilia and hiding them while doing the same. That would be "Gingrich-ing."

quote:

Nice allegation. Would you like to expound with at least a modicum of detail?

You are the one backing the Church on this issue. You tell me. Why do so many join the priesthood? lol... I remember growing up, I had an Italian friend and I would visit her house often. Her grandmother would start on the younger grandson about how he had to join the priesthood, how it would soothe her soul and bring a blessing upon the family. Ect ect ect.
If you need a source for that ....
http://www.brooklynpriests.org/families/familyLauricello.html

Aha! So, no. You have shown one priest's Grandma guilting him into becoming a priest. What about the rest? The nuns? How long has it been a secret that they aren't supposed to have sex? You have nothing here.

quote:

quote:

How can they stop offering something they never offered, and are morally against, yet allowed?
Its all bullshit. Its all political maneuvering. Its illegal.

The Catholic Church never sanctioned the offering, yet many systems ran under the Church do offer that.
Quite a hypocritical stance, wouldnt you say?


It very well can be hypocritical for the organizations that did offer coverage. But, that isn't saying the rule should be scrapped, now, does it?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Did the GOP really understand the last election? - 3/12/2013 3:56:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

lmao, so not the point. And, had you read the article, you'd have also noticed that in many cases, married women in Africa have little rights and are coerced physically, mentally and/or emotionally to have intercourse. No recourse. Hubby have HIV? Fuck him. No. Really. Go fuck him.


If I have been diagnosed with endometriosis, does that mean I cannot get pregnant?

Endometriosis can cause infertility in many women, but with proactive treatment, the possibility of pregnancy is increased. Discuss treatment options with your doctor to decide what would be the best course to take to increase your chances of pregnancy.


In essence without treatment, most of these women wont get pregnant. Part of that treatment is to slow down the growth and lessen scar tissue. BC pills do just that.

The "Church" who is so into procreation is denying these women with the treatment which would enable then to possibly get pregnant.

Again.... Hypocritical.

quote:

Jesus, tazzy, you're all over the fucking place. If the Catholic Church is against artificial contraception because it is against it's faith, then, coverage for contraception not being there isn't that big of a shock, is it? It shouldn't be. Logic will tell you that it wouldn't be covered.


Jesus Mary and Joseph, DS, if it was ONLY for birth control many wouldnt care!

quote:

You did not just call me a Gingrich, did you?!?!?


If the hypocrisy fits.

quote:

Did the Church fuck up in the pedophilia scandal? Absolutely. Does this mean the Church has no moral grounds for anything else? Absolutely not. Yes, there is a dichotomy here, but the Church isn't railing against pedophilia and hiding them while doing the same. That would be "Gingrich-ing."


Yep, it screwed up in spades and shovels and backhoes with dynamite.

Taking a high moral ground, then fucking up by the numbers, doesnt leave one in a position to take that moral high ground again, ESPECIALLY when the one leading the charge was the one who created the other scandal.

quote:

Aha! So, no. You have shown one priest's Grandma guilting him into becoming a priest. What about the rest? The nuns? How long has it been a secret that they aren't supposed to have sex? You have nothing here.


Oh ffs, how many do you think werent guilted into it? It became the norm not only for Italian familes, but Irish Catholics as well. Coming from that background myself, my Uncle was supposed to go, but bailed at the last minute.

quote:

It very well can be hypocritical for the organizations that did offer coverage. But, that isn't saying the rule should be scrapped, now, does it?


The bigger argument would be that the Church, in their desire to make money, complied with the laws of that state. 28 states make it a requirement to offer BC as part of any prescription plan before Obama made this ruling. Therefore, in 28 states, in order for Catholic organizations to run a business, such as a hospital system, they have to offer it. It was fine then. Its not now?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 100
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