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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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lmao, so not the point. And, had you read the article, you'd have also noticed that in many cases, married women in Africa have little rights and are coerced physically, mentally and/or emotionally to have intercourse. No recourse. Hubby have HIV? Fuck him. No. Really. Go fuck him.

If I have been diagnosed with endometriosis, does that mean I cannot get pregnant?
Endometriosis can cause infertility in many women, but with proactive treatment, the possibility of pregnancy is increased. Discuss treatment options with your doctor to decide what would be the best course to take to increase your chances of pregnancy.
In essence without treatment, most of these women wont get pregnant. Part of that treatment is to slow down the growth and lessen scar tissue. BC pills do just that.
The "Church" who is so into procreation is denying these women with the treatment which would enable then to possibly get pregnant.
Again.... Hypocritical.

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Jesus, tazzy, you're all over the fucking place. If the Catholic Church is against artificial contraception because it is against it's faith, then, coverage for contraception not being there isn't that big of a shock, is it? It shouldn't be. Logic will tell you that it wouldn't be covered.

Jesus Mary and Joseph, DS, if it was ONLY for birth control many wouldnt care!

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You did not just call me a Gingrich, did you?!?!?

If the hypocrisy fits.

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Did the Church fuck up in the pedophilia scandal? Absolutely. Does this mean the Church has no moral grounds for anything else? Absolutely not. Yes, there is a dichotomy here, but the Church isn't railing against pedophilia and hiding them while doing the same. That would be "Gingrich-ing."

Yep, it screwed up in spades and shovels and backhoes with dynamite.
Taking a high moral ground, then fucking up by the numbers, doesnt leave one in a position to take that moral high ground again, ESPECIALLY when the one leading the charge was the one who created the other scandal.

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Aha! So, no. You have shown one priest's Grandma guilting him into becoming a priest. What about the rest? The nuns? How long has it been a secret that they aren't supposed to have sex? You have nothing here.

Oh ffs, how many do you think werent guilted into it? It became the norm not only for Italian familes, but Irish Catholics as well. Coming from that background myself, my Uncle was supposed to go, but bailed at the last minute.

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It very well can be hypocritical for the organizations that did offer coverage. But, that isn't saying the rule should be scrapped, now, does it?

The bigger argument would be that the Church, in their desire to make money, complied with the laws of that state. 28 states make it a requirement to offer BC as part of any prescription plan before Obama made this ruling. Therefore, in 28 states, in order for Catholic organizations to run a business, such as a hospital system, they have to offer it. It was fine then. Its not now?

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• Birth control hormones (patch, pills, or ring)
  
• Gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist (GnRH-a)
  
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And, there is no other treatment for endometriosis, save birth control or a hysterectomy?

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And, many still would. Recall the kerfuffle with the Sandra Fluke testimony?

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Really? The recently departed Pope Benedict created the pedophile scandal?!? Dude had some serious bad ass power even before he became Pope. Now, if only he had chosen to make the priests use their positions for good instead of pedophilia.

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You are still asking me to answer for the Church. I told you I wasn't included in any of their discussions, yet, you continue badgering me about it. I'm not sure why, either. If you're trying to knock the Catholic Church down in my view, don't bother. It isn't very high anyway. Recall I left Catholicism by choice. To be more accurate, I left the Catholic Church when I was 15, so I've been a non-Catholic for longer than I was Catholic.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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And, there is no other treatment for endometriosis, save birth control or a hysterectomy?

A hysterectomy pretty much finalizes up the inability to have a baby. Its also the option of last resort. Considering the age group for this condition is 20-late 30s, medical standards require other treatment first.
Lucy covered that well.

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And, many still would. Recall the kerfuffle with the Sandra Fluke testimony?

Caused by Rush who insisted she wanted it so women could be sluts.
Is that the kerfuffle you meant? Because that is not what Fluke said at all.

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Really? The recently departed Pope Benedict created the pedophile scandal?!? Dude had some serious bad ass power even before he became Pope. Now, if only he had chosen to make the priests use their positions for good instead of pedophilia.

By hiding these priests, denying the incidents of pedophilia, by moving priests around so they can commit such actions again... yep.. he did.
IF he had spoken up, pushed for them to be prosecuted, the Church would have avoided the scandal and the Priests themselves would have born the brunt of the anger. Instead, the Church was complicit in the coverup.

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You are still asking me to answer for the Church. I told you I wasn't included in any of their discussions, yet, you continue badgering me about it. I'm not sure why, either. If you're trying to knock the Catholic Church down in my view, don't bother. It isn't very high anyway. Recall I left Catholicism by choice. To be more accurate, I left the Catholic Church when I was 15, so I've been a non-Catholic for longer than I was Catholic.

Because you continue to make excuses for them. Apparently you feel able to do that, so why not answer the questions.

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You sure didn't parse my sentence very well. "Lack of comprehension" once again rears it's ugly head. My inclusion of hysterectomy was lumped in because it certainly does have a major effect on a woman's ability to bear children. The question asked there were options other than both options (birth control and hysterectomy) mentioned.

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I think you are putting a lot on this guy. You've made the claim that the Pope is where the buck stops, but you are criticizing someone other than the Pope at the time. And, are you going to say that this guy, then-Cardinal Ratzinger, was to blame for something that had been happening for 50+ years?

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I make no excuses. I'm simply attempting to get you to understand their side. You don't have to agree with it. I don't give two shits if you agree with the Catholic Church's views. Shit, I don't agree with their views all that much. So, you can either argue that what I'm saying isn't accurate, argue that how the Catholic Church views things is wrong, or you can argue against my own stated beliefs.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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You sure didn't parse my sentence very well. "Lack of comprehension" once again rears it's ugly head. My inclusion of hysterectomy was lumped in because it certainly does have a major effect on a woman's ability to bear children. The question asked there were options other than both options (birth control and hysterectomy) mentioned.

1) Hormone therapy
2) Surgery
They can try to remove the scar tissue, but chances are they wont get it all, it does grow back, forcing another surgery, then another, then another. A D&C wont work, and the Catholic Church doesnt want to pay for those anyways. This is performed if the woman wants to get pregnant, though, recently, they are moving towards IVF. Something else the Church does not wish to condone.
In severe cases, a bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy (complete removal of the female organs) is required. Now this the Church will cover.

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I think you are putting a lot on this guy. You've made the claim that the Pope is where the buck stops, but you are criticizing someone other than the Pope at the time. And, are you going to say that this guy, then-Cardinal Ratzinger, was to blame for something that had been happening for 50+ years?

No, I am saying once he knew, and they all knew early on, he should have reported it. He should have pushed for disclosure. Honestly, I feel for all those men. They can give each other absolution on these crimes and cover ups. But, if there really is a heaven, they are all so screwed.

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I make no excuses. I'm simply attempting to get you to understand their side. You don't have to agree with it. I don't give two shits if you agree with the Catholic Church's views. Shit, I don't agree with their views all that much. So, you can either argue that what I'm saying isn't accurate, argue that how the Catholic Church views things is wrong, or you can argue against my own stated beliefs.

Their side is a bunch of old men who claim they cant get laid because they made promises.
Many DO get laid, on the dl, using hookers and little boys to do so. They lie to parishoners, then claim a moral high ground in life.
They treat women as an inferior aspect of the human race, to be kept barefoot and pregnant.
They are losing their strong hold in the religious lives of their followers (as evidenced by the wide spread use of birth control reported among catholics) so they have decided to use political clout.
Eventually, they need to lose their religious tax exempt status for all that dabbling they do in politics. When they lose that, Pittsburgh's money problems will be a thing of the past. I am sure many other cities can say the same thing.
Its time these old fuckers were told to mind their own business, tend to their flock, and quit telling others what they can or cannot do. If they want to run a business, then run one. But keep their morality out of it.

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Yet, birth control won't get rid of it very well, either, will it? It might control it, but it won't get rid of it.

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Then, why are you placing the blame squarely on Cardinal Ratzinger? Prior to 2001, it was a matter for the local Diocese. He persuaded Pope John Paul II to let him take over the situation and have the Vatican take over for the local Dioceses. Are you going to rail that he took 2-3 years to get a full grasp of the situation before coming out swinging, too?

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So, the "old fuckers" need to "mind their own business," but aren't allowed to actually "mind their own business" when it comes to benefits. Gotcha.

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I don't disagree that they need to mind their own business. I do believe Big Gov needs to let them mind their business though.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Yet, birth control won't get rid of it very well, either, will it? It might control it, but it won't get rid of it.

There is no cure for endometriosis. There is only management. Why should a woman have to be on hormone therapy for menopause after a hysterectomy when hormone therapy could have helped prevent the need for the surgery at all.

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Then, why are you placing the blame squarely on Cardinal Ratzinger? Prior to 2001, it was a matter for the local Diocese. He persuaded Pope John Paul II to let him take over the situation and have the Vatican take over for the local Dioceses. Are you going to rail that he took 2-3 years to get a full grasp of the situation before coming out swinging, too?

Was that NOT his job? Did he NOT ask for that himself? From my research, he asked for all this to be under his control... then he did nothing.

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So, the "old fuckers" need to "mind their own business," but aren't allowed to actually "mind their own business" when it comes to benefits. Gotcha.

Not when those "old fuckers" try to determine what is best medically for women over the recommendations of the medical community and science.

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I don't disagree that they need to mind their own business. I do believe Big Gov needs to let them mind their business though.

And we wouldnt have Big Gov in the field of business if business hadnt gotten so greedy and power hungry.
Meat plants
Child Labor Laws
Overtime pay/Mandatory overtime
Truckers on the road for 24 hours plus
E coli
Salmonella
Listeria
Sexual harassment
The list goes on and on and on. Businesses had ample time to fix their shit. Once again, like with health care, they couldnt be bothered until they realized they were under the microscope and started crying "But we didnt have time?" Once again, we have waited long enough.

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How can hormone therapy prevent the need for surgery if there is no cure for endometriosis?

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He did do stuff. That's the whole point. It may have taken him a couple years to get a full grasp of the depth and breadth of the situation, but that doesn't mean he wasn't working on it. Sometimes there is a benefit to knowing all the details before acting.

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They aren't determining what is best medically. That's just it. The Church is taking a moral stance (yeah, I know you don't think they have anything to stand on) and being consistent with their belief. Your example of endometriosis shows that non birth control medications and therapies are available. We both disagree with the Church's policy of not covering BC for endometriosis treatment.

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Not covering BC is not the same as the issues that spawned Unions. The E coli, Salmonella, and Listeria controls were needed to make sure the information playing field was level (that is, if people expected foods to not contain those pathogens, those foods shouldn't have those pathogens).

Not covering BC isn't preventing BC from being available, though.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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How can hormone therapy prevent the need for surgery if there is no cure for endometriosis?

You needed to understand what it is before I could answer your question.
So, basically, the pill fools the body into thinking its already pregnant, stopping the menstrual cycle and the growth of more endometrial tissue.
Combining BC with a laparotomy is the best case scenario, if caught early on.

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He did do stuff. That's the whole point. It may have taken him a couple years to get a full grasp of the depth and breadth of the situation, but that doesn't mean he wasn't working on it. Sometimes there is a benefit to knowing all the details before acting.

What? Apologized in 2010???

[

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Sexual abuse in the Catholic Church
Prior to 2001, the primary responsibility for investigating allegations of sexual abuse and disciplining perpetrators rested with the individual dioceses. In 2001, Ratzinger convinced John Paul II to put the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in charge of all investigations and policies surrounding sexual abuse in order to combat such abuse more efficiently.[149][150] According to John L. Allen, Jr., Ratzinger in the following years "acquired a familiarity with the contours of the problem that virtually no other figure in the Catholic Church can claim" and "driven by that encounter with what he would later refer to as 'filth' in the Church, Ratzinger seems to have undergone something of a 'conversion experience' throughout 2003–04. From that point forward, he and his staff seemed driven by a convert's zeal to clean up the mess".[151] In his role as Head of the CDF, he "led important changes made in Church law: the inclusion in canon law of internet offences against children, the extension of child abuse offences to include the sexual abuse of all under 18, the case by case waiving of the statute of limitation and the establishment of a fast-track dismissal from the clerical state for offenders."[152] As the Head of the CDF, Ratzinger developed a reputation for handling these cases. According to Charles J. Scicluna, a former prosecutor handling sexual abuse cases, "Cardinal Ratzinger displayed great wisdom and firmness in handling those cases, also demonstrating great courage in facing some of the most difficult and thorny cases, sine acceptione personarum (without exceptions)".[151][153]
One of the cases Ratzinger pursued involved Father Marcial Maciel Degollado, a Mexican priest and founder of the Legion of Christ, who had been accused repeatedly of sexual abuse. Biographer Andrea Tornielli suggested that Cardinal Ratzinger had wanted to take action against Marcial Maciel Degollado, but that John Paul II and other high-ranking officials, including several cardinals and notably the Pope's influential secretary Stanisław Dziwisz, prevented him from doing so.[150][154] According to Jason Berry, Angelo Sodano "pressured" Cardinal Ratzinger, who was "operating on the assumption that the charges were not justified", to halt the proceedings against Maciel in 1999[155] When Maciel was honored by the Pope in 2004, new accusers came forward[155] and Cardinal Ratzinger "took it on himself to authorize an investigation of Maciel"[150] After Ratzinger became pope he began proceedings against Maciel and the Legion of Christ that forced Maciel out of active service in the Church.[149] On 1 May 2010 the Vatican issued a statement denouncing Maciel's "very serious and objectively immoral acts", which were "confirmed by incontrovertible testimonies" and represent "true crimes and manifest a life without scruples or authentic religious sentiment." Pope Benedict also said he would appoint a special commission to examine the Legionaries’ constitution and open an investigation into its lay affiliate Regnum Christi.[156] Cardinal Christoph Schönborn explained that Ratzinger "made entirely clear efforts not to cover things up but to tackle and investigate them. This was not always met with approval in the Vatican".[149][157] According to Schönborn, Cardinal Ratzinger had pressed John Paul II to investigate Hans Hermann Groër, an Austrian cardinal and friend of John Paul accused of sexual abuse, resulting in Groër's resignation.

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They aren't determining what is best medically. That's just it. The Church is taking a moral stance (yeah, I know you don't think they have anything to stand on) and being consistent with their belief. Your example of endometriosis shows that non birth control medications and therapies are available. We both disagree with the Church's policy of not covering BC for endometriosis treatment.

And without BC there is no sense is doing the laparotomy. The growth will return, along with a host of symptoms.

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Not covering BC is not the same as the issues that spawned Unions. The E coli, Salmonella, and Listeria controls were needed to make sure the information playing field was level (that is, if people expected foods to not contain those pathogens, those foods shouldn't have those pathogens).
Not covering BC isn't preventing BC from being available, though.

The medical aspects are not different. All those caused a host of medical issues, including death. But many more just got very sick. Without BC, women with this condition will get sicker.
While you may see a huge difference between the two, I do not.
No one is asking the Church to advocate its use. However, its denial of coverage for many women, with the exception of a hysterectomy, is discrimination as this is only a woman issue.

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So, no, it can't prevent the need for surgery. Very nice primer though. Wasn't necessary, but you didn't know that (this is not a crack or snark or anything; you simply made sure the bases were covered).

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Ratzinger seems to have undergone something of a 'conversion experience' throughout 2003–04.

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Really, tazzy? Only a woman's issue? Next, you're going to say that hysterectomies and oophorectomies are discrimination against women because men can't have them.

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Here's my recommendation: Don't work for a Catholic-affiliated organization that follows the Vatican's missives to a 'T.'

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And that is a shitty way of saying.... fuck you, dont like it, dont work there.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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So, no, it can't prevent the need for surgery. Very nice primer though. Wasn't necessary, but you didn't know that (this is not a crack or snark or anything; you simply made sure the bases were covered).

Actually, yes it does. BC can prevent the need for a hysterectomy.

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Ratzinger seems to have undergone something of a 'conversion experience' throughout 2003–04.

2004 - 2005?
Yet he didnt know until 2005?
And still no formal apology until 2010??
But, by GOD lets protect them from bankruptcy !

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Really, tazzy? Only a woman's issue? Next, you're going to say that hysterectomies and oophorectomies are discrimination against women because men can't have them.

Want to explain how endometriosis is a man's issue?
Honestly. Can men get it? Is there any way possible for a man to physically have to deal with it?
THAT makes it a woman's issue.

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Here's my recommendation: Don't work for a Catholic-affiliated organization that follows the Vatican's missives to a 'T.'

Depending on the community, that may be all that is available. And that is a shitty way of saying.... fuck you, dont like it, dont work there.
They did that down south... cotton mills... took unions to correct the abuse there.
And I completely agree with Ron. Tax them. They want to make money. They want legal protection for what THEY did wrong....
They want to claim a moral high road while fucking people over in more than one way....
Fuck em.

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Not in all cases, tazzy. Not in all cases.

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He took over in 2001. He spend the next 3 years getting a grip on the breadth and depth of the issue and then came out swinging. Did he not know anything until 2005? Nope. Did he have a full grasp of what went on in 2001? Nope.

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And, simply because a woman is the only gender to get it doesn't make it discriminatory to not offer BC when there are other therapeutic options. Thank God we men don't have to worry and empathize with our womenfolk. Load off my shoulders.

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You're going to tell me that the only employer in an area is a Catholic-affiliated organization? Where are you, the Holy See?

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And, here is where shit comes to roost. When you are dependent on someone to provide employment for you, you have a shitload less room to complain than if you didn't have to rely on an employer. Instead of forcing business to change to your moral code, why not start your own business that follows your moral code? If your business plan is superior, it ought to succeed, right? And, if you're offering better pay and better benefits, you'll have your pick of employees, and then your competition will have to up their offerings, too. Voila! The magic of the Market works to improve worker pay!

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Not in all cases, tazzy. Not in all cases.

So because it cant in 100% of the cases.
Laparotomy efficacy rates are approximately 42% for pregnancy.
50% by combining that with hormonal treatment.
http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/1/89.full.pdf
And thats just the ones that still want to get pregnant.
Statistics say more than 5 million women in the US have endometriosis.
And you want to deny treatment to at least 50% of them because of someone's "moral" objection?

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He took over in 2001. He spend the next 3 years getting a grip on the breadth and depth of the issue and then came out swinging. Did he not know anything until 2005? Nope. Did he have a full grasp of what went on in 2001? Nope.

And yet settlements were being made in 2004. Those lawsuits didnt just spring up in 2004... or 2003... or even 2002. They knew they were coming... the Vatican knew they were coming. That excuse of yours just doesnt wash.

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And, simply because a woman is the only gender to get it doesn't make it discriminatory to not offer BC when there are other therapeutic options. Thank God we men don't have to worry and empathize with our womenfolk. Load off my shoulders.

Its this law that the EEOC is basing their discriminatory findings upon. Dont blame me if you dont agree. Take it up with them.

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You're going to tell me that the only employer in an area is a Catholic-affiliated organization? Where are you, the Holy See?

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And, here is where shit comes to roost. When you are dependent on someone to provide employment for you, you have a shitload less room to complain than if you didn't have to rely on an employer. Instead of forcing business to change to your moral code, why not start your own business that follows your moral code? If your business plan is superior, it ought to succeed, right? And, if you're offering better pay and better benefits, you'll have your pick of employees, and then your competition will have to up their offerings, too. Voila! The magic of the Market works to improve worker pay!

See above!

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