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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 10:20:36 AM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

His school thinks he's behind and should start kindergarten a year late, but they're very non-commital on why and what exactly may be the issue. As a side note, I don't think very highly of this school. I basically consider it a Christian daycare posing as a school. They focus more on memorizing Bible verses and songs than anything else. However, it was the only school we could get his mother to agree to let him go to, and we considered social interaction with kids his age to be important enough to let him go to this one, despite not thinking much of the school in question, because any school/daycare is going to be better for him than to have no socialization with peers at all.


As others have recommended, get him tested in your county/town/state for developmental/learning issues. In CT we have Birth to 3, then the town is responsible for special ed beginning with preschool. It sounds as if he could benefit from a better and more structured learning environment geared to responding to his issues. If you don't have that, try the Human Development/Psychology/Education departments at your closest colleges - they often sponsor special ed preschool programs while simultaneously training their students.

It all starts with testing and getting someone to agree that an educational plan is needed - not so much a diagnosis/label. Young children often aren't diagnosed with anything specific until they are able to be tested in more depth as they age*. You might get a very general diagnosis (for example, "general language disorder") but so what? What's important is that you get guidance in helping him stay organized/focused at home and perhaps gaining him access to special ed preschool/preK and getting him school ready.

(*For example only, some kids don't actually get an Asberger's diagnosis until 10-12.)

Also, and I'm saying this in response to the naysayers previous - working with folks who observe your child and interact with him over time will help you see whether he is gaming the system/typical/atypical so that you get a 2nd pair of eyes and opinions.

Best to you in this, and as a parent of a child with a long-term, non-specific set of diagnoses for a long time, I'm happy to share offline with you.

< Message edited by DomMeinCT -- 3/7/2013 10:25:29 AM >

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 10:24:13 AM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

He knows I expect something, he wants to give it to me, and he's sad that he can't.

He used to not answer "I don't know" and just randomly start guessing, but got so discouraged at being told "no, not that one, almost, can you try again?" that he now refuses to even guess.

When you (gently and enthusiastically) try to push him and tell him: "I bet you do know, try to think" he gets frustrated and will yell: "I can't know everything! People don't have to know everything!".



Does he have more trouble answering conceptual questions (what do you think you need to do next?) than perceptual questions (What is that on the floor that needs to be picked up?)?


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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 10:52:20 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT


Does he have more trouble answering conceptual questions (what do you think you need to do next?) than perceptual questions (What is that on the floor that needs to be picked up?)?



Conceptual for sure.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 11:47:12 AM   
thezeppo


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Status: offline 		I just want to clarify that when I said Asperger's earlier I was actually referring to Autism Spectrum Condition. It was a poor choice of words on my part, but the point I trying to make is that while there are identifiable indicators, people with ASC can be completely different from one another in their actual behaviour. Apologies if you already knew that, I was just trying to clarify what I said previously. In my opinion (and that's all this is) the behaviour that you describe doesn't preclude an ASC diagnosis. Rereading the thread I noticed something I didn't pick up on before, you said you had brought up the eye contact issue because you were worried. In that case I probably seem quite glib, but it is only because I know from experience that people with an ASC diagnosis can live perfectly ordinary, or wildly exciting lives should they so choose. Such a diagnosis would not necessarily have the negative connotations that might be associated with it but could in fact unlock access to resources that would be very useful.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 11:56:29 AM   
thezeppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

Fast reply

Have you tried a visual aid like a chore board?

I don't mean a reward chart, so much as a chart where he moves a card from one column to the next (or flips it over, or crosses it off with a marker or something) when it's done so you can keep directing him to check his chart to remind himself what to do next. You could even colour code his tasks to different parts of the day - so blue for morning, with brushing teeth, opening the curtains etc that he needs to do before breakfast, then red for the middle of the day which he does before his sister gets home, then yellow for night time which he does before bed.

I've seen them made with pictures stuck onto clothes pins that he moves from one side of the chart to the other. If you did that, he could even take the pin with him while he did the chore (clip it to his shirt cuff or something) so he has a visual reminder with him all the time of what he's in the middle of doing.

Somewhere between these two:



Sorry if that's a really obvious suggestion!

If you do want to make one, on this site you can make really easy mini flashcards on any topic and print them out:
http://www.senteacher.org/Worksheet/6/PECS.xhtml
I use it all the time for home made game cards and stuff.

I don't think your chore list is too long since much of it is more self care/independence rather than additional tasks.



I would do something exactly like the picture on the bottom, except as the last activity I would add 'use computer' or whatever play activity he wants to do once his chores are complete. I might also include pictures of the activities next to the words.

Regarding flushing the toilet, I would maybe try temporarily stopping all of his other chores and only focusing on that (and obviously keep emptying the dishwasher and anything else he is clearly comfortable and confident doing). If that helps at all then reintroduce the other chores one at a time.

AthenaSurrenders:

I'm a future SEN teacher so thanks a lot for the link!

< Message edited by thezeppo -- 3/7/2013 12:19:15 PM >

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 1:28:17 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

First off, LadyPact, you're right. Most of the stuff on that list I don't expect him to do by himself. It's something he does either with me under direct guidance, or with me in the room doing other stuff.



Or that at least how I feel about the ADHD subject...

I trimmed just for the sake of space.

It always seemed to Me that the household tasks where My kids were emulating Me or helping Me were the ones that they enjoyed the most. There's something about that which makes it fun or more interesting. Even what you describe about the dishwasher makes total sense to Me because that's his part while you are getting Daddy's coffee and you'll be with the little guy shortly.

On the ADHD subject, I have to say that you definitely want to know. It's actually harder on clip since he wasn't diagnosed as a child. Ritalin isn't the only answer anymore, either. There's non schedule 2 prescriptions that have a good success record depending on the type of ADD/ADHD the child might have. They know way more about it now than when the solution was to turn all of the kids into little zombies.

It does sound like you've got some challenges. That 6/6 deal makes it sound like you are always going to be doing reminders for the first week of your six if the other household isn't as structured as yours. (I'll be nice to the other parent and reserve My comments there.) I definitely want to wish you luck and have hopes for you that some good solutions come from this thread.



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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 1:31:49 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
That 6/6 deal makes it sound like you are always going to be doing reminders for the first week of your six if the other household isn't as structured as yours.

Not necessarily. In my case the other household was VASTLY less structured than mine. But kids are smart. As it turns out they were perfectly able to understand different rules in different places. In point of fact, you could see the behavior change like a switch when we were picking them up or dropping them off.


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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 1:54:09 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
That 6/6 deal makes it sound like you are always going to be doing reminders for the first week of your six if the other household isn't as structured as yours.

Not necessarily. In my case the other household was VASTLY less structured than mine. But kids are smart. As it turns out they were perfectly able to understand different rules in different places. In point of fact, you could see the behavior change like a switch when we were picking them up or dropping them off.



That's what we've seen too. The main reason they tend to act up more the first week back is because they usually come back severely sleep deprived and with a lot of penned up energy from spending most of their time home bored and under stimulated. The combination of the two results in them being highly irritable and needing to physically let of steam, which is easily dealt with by just planning some appropriate activities and making sure they catch up on sleep.

The main thing we've needed to do is stay consistent about not allowing violent/aggressive behavior to enter our home, but the older they've gotten, the easier it's become from them to leave that constant "fight/flight" reflex at the door as well, and just fall back into "safe kids mode" immediately upon being back here.

They may need refreshes on behavior that wasn't fully finished learning before they left our house, but that's more a matter of picking up a little before where we left off on stuff that wasn't fully imprinted as a new behavior, than them needing to be reminded about rules, and routines they know and do well.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 1:56:18 PM   
Notsweet


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How many kids have YOU raised?

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 2:07:16 PM   
Notsweet


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Status: offline 		Ok, maybe I was harsh. For that I apologize.

But yes, it's way too much stuff for a four year old whose parents have split up, who lives in two different places, with two sets of rules, and a hostile relationship between the parents. YOU are the one who said that you didn't want to follow him around to make sure he does what he's supposed to do, that you didn't want to spend 30 hours entertaining him. Well, parenting is about following them around to make sure that they do what they're supposed to, and about providing stimulation for lots more than about 30 hours.

And the fact that he's not left to do all these things himself doesn't mean that it's any less for him to do. Why don't you work on one thing at a time, instead of worrying that he's playing in the dark? Don't micromanage the kid, and remember that mommy and daddy destroyed his home life so that they could do what they wanted to do, rather than what was best for the kids.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/7/2013 10:42:08 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet
Don't micromanage the kid, and remember that mommy and daddy destroyed his home life so that they could do what they wanted to do, rather than what was best for the kids.


I don't think this is a fair comment at all. There are many, many situations in which separation IS what is best for the kids. The split living arrangements may not be ideal, but that doesn't mean it isn't many times better than what was going on before.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 12:39:26 AM   
xssve


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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 1:34:57 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


He also doesn't make eye contact when talking to people. Staring at the ceiling, or off in the distance instead... something that drives me nuts cause it makes me feel like he's not listening.


This can actually be a sign that there is something not quite right. He really should be tested by a professional.



That's the sentence that got me thinking as well.


That was a flag for me too.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 2:36:47 AM   
LadyPact


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ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Not necessarily. In my case the other household was VASTLY less structured than mine. But kids are smart. As it turns out they were perfectly able to understand different rules in different places. In point of fact, you could see the behavior change like a switch when we were picking them up or dropping them off.

My memory is usually pretty good, but I can't remember what ages your kids were when the two households thing became a part of their lives. I never really had to deal with that, so I might be off a bit. At the age that we're talking about with Ishtar's step-children, they are no where near the rebelling stage (if there might be one) so I can completely get that the kids feel more secure in the home with more structure.

MP didn't cross My path until My kids were nine and eleven. I'm more used to the stuff that goes along with the disruption of the household due to deployments. As the military 'experts' on family will tell you, there's a disruption period pre-deployment and one that comes at post deployment. Same thing happens in reverse. Just prior to the soldier of the family coming home there will be an unrest period and there is a rough stage when everybody settles in once they are back.

I mention this because I am more used to kids having difficulties specifically relating to adjustment periods. That's even with the authority structure not changing.



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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 3:12:49 AM   
lizi


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ORIGINAL: Notsweet

Ok, maybe I was harsh. For that I apologize.

But yes, it's way too much stuff for a four year old whose parents have split up, who lives in two different places, with two sets of rules, and a hostile relationship between the parents. YOU are the one who said that you didn't want to follow him around to make sure he does what he's supposed to do, that you didn't want to spend 30 hours entertaining him. Well, parenting is about following them around to make sure that they do what they're supposed to, and about providing stimulation for lots more than about 30 hours.

And the fact that he's not left to do all these things himself doesn't mean that it's any less for him to do. Why don't you work on one thing at a time, instead of worrying that he's playing in the dark? Don't micromanage the kid, and remember that mommy and daddy destroyed his home life so that they could do what they wanted to do, rather than what was best for the kids.


quote:


-Getting dressed, undressed, putting clothing/pj's in the appropriate spot by himself
- Tidy up his own room
- Open curtains in morning, turn the lights and his nightlight off
- Brush his own teeth, wash hands by himself
- Get his own drinks, put the stepstool away after using it to get drinks
- Set the table, clear the table
- Unload the dishwasher
- (Help me) sort the laundry, put clean clothes away after I fold/hang them
- Put his shoes, coat, backpack away in the appropriate spots when coming home
- Help me cook (measuring things, retrieving items)
- General help with tidying up the house
- Empty (small) trashcans
- Keep the bathroom tidy, wipe down the counters when he spills something


There are 13 things on this list, 8 of them are things he is doing to take care of himself or his space. The other chores are to contribute to his family community, which is an important concept to grasp, and which contributes to a healthy self esteem when children put effort into the collective chores of their community- they themselves need these collective chores done too. None of these chores are to benefit another person as a sole recipient, they are all individual for the child or collaborative in which others are also pitching in. I do not understand what is so horrific about this. All of the chores are on the small side, as they should be. He's not cooking dinner for the entire family.

I would like to suggest to the people who think the chore list is too long and too difficult, that they go to their nearest pre-k, or kindergarten classroom and watch what the kids are responsible for. Yesterday I was in both, and they were for the special needs kids, ages 3-6, and ALL of those kids did these things and more. Maybe that is why the uproar mystifies me, I see this being done in real life with no fuss.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 3:27:47 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		When my kids were in grammar school, I routinely volounteered, not just with set programs (Great Books and remedial reading) but I was allowed to wander into the classroom and help out whenever I could. I was amazed at how incredibly well organized the teachers were, and at how well they taught small children how to clean up after themselves.

I remember once gong into my daughter's kindergarten, and the teacher said they would do play doh. And I'm thinking 25 kids and playdoh, this will be interesting. She had every step of the process down and they followed their playdoh routine like little troupers.

But see, that's what a solid background in child development does for you, which is why I suggessted the OP take that education seriously.

I agree, for most five year olds the chore list would not be a huge load, it is for this five year old, b/c he can't do it. Although I would not state it the way it has been previously, IMO much more care and compassion needs to be given to this little boy who is struggling with basics and in large part b/c of the break up and his home situation.

Pick one thing you want him to work on, and be positive. Also, just from what you've said the kid has limited cognitive thinking skills, possibly b/c mommy does all his thinking for him. When you plan his daily activities, find things he likes to do that improve his cognitive thinking.



< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 3/8/2013 3:29:59 AM >

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 4:38:13 AM   
Notsweet


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ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I don't think this is a fair comment at all. There are many, many situations in which separation IS what is best for the kids. The split living arrangements may not be ideal, but that doesn't mean it isn't many times better than what was going on before.


Yeah. That's what everyone says when they destroy their own child's family because they want something different, and can't wait until the kid is grown, because (make whining sound) "It's not fay-er. What about me??".

What about the kids there, Sparky? Is it fair to them? How about the adults behave like adults, and keep the home a safe place while the kids are there? Because it's hard? Because they don't like each other?

Really should have considered these things when they decided to have kids. Suck it up for 18 years. Parenting is also about sacrifice.

On this, I don't apologize, and I don't bend. Been there. Seen it. Know what happens.

< Message edited by Notsweet -- 3/8/2013 4:40:20 AM >

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 5:23:39 AM   
searching4mysir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I don't think this is a fair comment at all. There are many, many situations in which separation IS what is best for the kids. The split living arrangements may not be ideal, but that doesn't mean it isn't many times better than what was going on before.


Yeah. That's what everyone says when they destroy their own child's family because they want something different, and can't wait until the kid is grown, because (make whining sound) "It's not fay-er. What about me??".

What about the kids there, Sparky? Is it fair to them? How about the adults behave like adults, and keep the home a safe place while the kids are there? Because it's hard? Because they don't like each other?

Really should have considered these things when they decided to have kids. Suck it up for 18 years. Parenting is also about sacrifice.

On this, I don't apologize, and I don't bend. Been there. Seen it. Know what happens.



And if there is physical, emotional or sexual abuse in the home? Still think they should stay together "for the kids"? How is THAT healthy for them? Newsflash, it isn't, and if BOTH parents don't want to be there for the kids, it is healthier for ALL if they split.

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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 5:46:48 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Notsweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I don't think this is a fair comment at all. There are many, many situations in which separation IS what is best for the kids. The split living arrangements may not be ideal, but that doesn't mean it isn't many times better than what was going on before.


Yeah. That's what everyone says when they destroy their own child's family because they want something different, and can't wait until the kid is grown, because (make whining sound) "It's not fay-er. What about me??".

What about the kids there, Sparky? Is it fair to them? How about the adults behave like adults, and keep the home a safe place while the kids are there? Because it's hard? Because they don't like each other?

Really should have considered these things when they decided to have kids. Suck it up for 18 years. Parenting is also about sacrifice.

On this, I don't apologize, and I don't bend. Been there. Seen it. Know what happens.


Fucking narrow minded, one true way, idealistic, dumbassery bullshit.

Sometimes parents splitting is the BEST thing they can do for their children. Anyone that says otherwise is talking out their ass.


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RE: Age appropriate chores - 3/8/2013 6:24:15 AM   
Notsweet


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Status: offline 		Having been on every single side (stepdaughter, stepmother, child of a broken home and having been a parent who split) and having innumerable pieces of both empirical AND anecdotal evidence...I disagree.

You know those things on which you are vehement, and cannot be moved, because you saw it? This one is mine. I'll probably fight it to the death, but there's this:

Every single person I know or have ever known who has come from a broken home has done worse in life than the ones who had two parents in the home.

People get married and divorced with way too much frequency, and I'm one of them.

Eighteen years is NOT a long time. The average person gets about three and a half of them. If someone does not want to spend a third of their life years putting themselves and their desires aside, you can't really blame them, but once you have a kid, you give up those 18 years.

I apologize if I sounded harsh, and since I have such a visceral reaction, I know I did. But simple common sense says that a kid is better off in a house with two adults. Gay, straight, rich, poor--goes across all lines.

Now are there conditions under which kids are worse off staying? Sure. But everyone who decides they aren't being fulfilled, or has "differences" doesn't have this situation. Everyone getting a divorce is CERTAINLY not getting one because they are being threatened, or are in danger. They get it because they're "not happy." And a kid needs to see his parents be happy, right? Well, nothing is happy in divorce, and the kid doesn't need Mommy and Daddy to be fulfilled. The kid needs to be happy. The parents can be happy after the child isn't a child anymore.

And LaT....thanks for your critique, but I stand by my words.


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